Panama Case - Post Verdict Discussion and Updates

[TheDarkKnight]

Selective accountability is worse than no accountability at all since it distorts the entire process according to the illegal will of a few, which is the intent of course.

So all murder convictions in US are selective because OJ in the past wasnt convicted and there are so many murders still lose? Panama leaks disclosed some facts about the Sharif empire which simply cannot be overlooked - atleast at the scale if PM office. This was not selective in any nature. Accountability of all judges and generals doesnt need to precede that of NS (PM). You would like that as this would take the focus away from NS and just delay the process of his accountability. To me this is atleast one thief less in the country ...

 

[VCheng]

So all murder convictions in US are selective because OJ in the past wasnt convicted and there are so many murders still lose? Panama leaks disclosed some facts about the Sharif empire which simply cannot be overlooked - atleast at the scale if PM office. This was not selective in any nature. Accountability of all judges and generals doesnt need to precede that of NS (PM). You would like that as this would take the focus away from NS and just delay the process of his accountability. To me this is atleast one thief less in the country ...

At this point in time, honestly, I care far more about the next elections being held fairly than anything else, without meddling by anyone. Let the people choose for themselves and they will sort out the buggers within a few elections cycles. However, I frankly do not see that happening since the present system is designed to keep some above the law to continue enjoying their privileges at the cost of the nation.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

When was Nixon PM of Pakistan?

Ewwww so Pakistanis are lesser people who should follow an inferior moral, ethical and poltical code of conduct. Only in US the PM/President should be held accountable.

 

[VCheng]

Ewwww so Pakistanis are lesser people who should follow an inferior moral, ethical and poltical code of conduct. Only in US the PM/President should be held accountable.

LOL. You are trying to bring in other countries, not me. The topic here is related to Pakistan only in my view.

 

[Zibago]

NS won the last election. The proper way to remove him is by the next elections, not by a manufactured judicial soft coup.

https://fp.brecorder.com/2017/11/20171108233083/
Detailed judgement: Nawaz neck-deep in business & politics since 1980s: SC

• KHUDAYAR MOHLA
  
• NOV 8TH, 2017
  
• ISLAMABAD

Supreme Court Tuesday said the ousted Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif never came forth with the whole truth before the court and did try to befool the people inside and outside the Parliament. While dismissing review pleas of a Sharif family, seeking a revisit of the Panama Papers case verdict that disqualified Nawaz Sharif from holding public office as prime minister on September 15, a five-member larger bench led by Justice Sardar Asif Saeed Khan Khosa said detailed reasons of the short order would be recorded later.

Issuing a 23-page detailed verdict, authored by one of the members of the larger bench, Justice Ejaz Afzal Khan, the court said in detailed order in the matter, "He (Nawaz Sharif) tried to befool the people inside and outside the Parliament. He even tried to befool the court without realizing that "you can befool all the people for some of the time, some of the people all the time but you cannot befool all the people all the time."

The court plainly said in its order that any concession at this stage or any leniency to the candidates or the person elected would be a prelude to a catastrophe in politics, which has already had enough of it. The verdict maintained that since it is already touching the extreme, extreme measures have to be taken, adding that the culture of passing the candidates by granting grace marks has not delivered the goods, it has rather corrupted the people and corrupted the system.

Giving its reasons behind dismissal of the review pleas of the Sharif family, the bench categorically said that it could not have shut eyes when an asset of the petitioner arising out of Iqama (work permit) having surfaced during the investigation of the case and admitted by him to be his own in no uncertain terms, was not found to have been disclosed in his nomination papers in terms of Section 12(2)(f) of Representation of Peoples Act (ROPA).

"Nor could have we let him get away with it simply because he happened to be the prime minister of the country. Much higher level of integrity is expected of the holder of the highest elected office of the country. But to our dismay and disappointment, the petitioner has not been fair and forthright in answering any of the queries made during the course of hearing," stated the larger bench.

The bench said that refuge in evasive, equivocal and non-committal reply does not help always, adding if fortune has throned, crowned and sceptered him to rule the country, his conduct should be above board and impeccable.

"Whatever he (Nawaz Sharif) does or says must be res ipsa loquitur. (thing speaks for itself), resignation rather than prevarication in ambiguous terms is more honorable exit if and when anything secretly carried under the sanctimonious gown of leadership drops and gets sighted," the judgment said.

The larger bench ruled that since the prime minister of the country is thought to be the ethos personified of the nation, he represents at national and international level, denying an asset established or defending a trust deed written in 2006 in a font becoming commercial in 2007 is below his dignity and decorum of the office he holds. Expressing a follower's feeling about his leader, Justice Ejaz Afzal Khan symbolically said in an Urdu couplet, "Don't talk about this thing and that, just tell us why the caravan was looted - We have no complaint with the passersby, it is a question of your leadership."

Responding to an argument of the counsel for Nawaz Sharif, the bench said that even if it is assumed that un-withdrawn salary constitutes an asset, omission to disclose it involving a violation of Sections 12 and 13 of the ROPA calls for the rejection of nomination papers or at its worst, removal of the petitioner from the public office and not his disqualification in terms of Section 99(1)(f) of the ROPA and Article 62(1)(f) of the Constitution is devoid of force when the petitioner deliberately concealed his assets and willfully and dishonestly made a false declaration on solemn affirmation in his nomination papers.

"It is not something to be looked at with a casual eye and outlook. It is not only a legal duty but a qualifying test for the candidates who in the later days preside over the destiny of the people. This duty has to be performed without a taint of misrepresentation. This test has to be qualified without resorting to unfair means," stated the detailed verdict.

Replying to an argument of Nawaz Sharif's counsel that apex court has no jurisdiction to disqualify him under Article 184 (3), the court said there are precedents to disqualify a candidate who made a false declaration in the nomination papers in the column meant for academic qualification and in another case a candidate was disqualified in terms of Article 63(1)(c) of the Constitution who made a false declaration on solemn affirmation in his nomination paper.

The detailed verdict added that Nawaz Sharif has been neck deep in business and politics ever since early 80s' so it is unbelievable that he did not understand the simple principle of accounting that his accrued and accumulated salary of six-and-a-half-year was his asset and liability of the company he was an employee of.

"Even otherwise, this argument cannot be given much weight when it has not been pleaded by the petitioner that the omission to mention the asset was accidental, inadvertent or unintentional," said the verdict.

The bench dispelled the argument when no material has come on the record to show any nexus between Captain (retired) Safdar and the Avenfield apartments, the direction to the NAB authorities to file a reference against him is not sustainable, saying Safdar is the spouse of Maryam Nawaz Sharif who prima facie happens to be the beneficial owner of the Avenfield apartments.

The court ruled that the evidence relating to Sharif's disqualification was undisputed, saying the Accountability Court is at liberty to consider evidence against Sharif family in accordance with law and without being influenced by the apex court observations in the matter.

Ewwww so Pakistanis are lesser people who should follow an inferior moral, ethical and poltical code of conduct. Only in US the PM/President should be held accountable.

Establishment paid media inciting people to protest against elected leaders #sazish
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/10/protest-paradise-papers-micah-white

However, I frankly do not see that happening since the present system is designed to keep some above the law to continue enjoying their privileges at the cost of the nation.

The panama case reversed that thankfully those who were spared in the past by these courts are being punished by them

I support the rule of law according to the Constitution for everyone. Without fear, or favor.

The rule of law is being implemented here i fail to see where the problem lies
Perhaps you trying to manufacture one where there is none

Is that why judges and generals are exempt from the same accountability process they wish to apply to the politicians?

How many judges and generals are in the billion dollar club of Pakistan?
Both Nawaz and Zardari are in that club

 

[TheDarkKnight]

LOL. You are trying to bring in other countries, not me. The topic here is related to Pakistan only in my view.

Other countries are only being given as an example to support an argument - especially of a financialy and politically successful country like US where both you and me prefer to live instead of the one ruled by PMLN.

 

[VCheng]

Other countries are only being given as an example to support an argument - especially of a financialy and politically successful country like US where both you and me prefer to live instead of the one ruled by PMLN.

Only if the argument applies, which it does not, in this case, not by far. What other countries do would apply only if there was similar rule of law in Pakistan. Examples more in keeping with the situation would be Egypt, or North Korea, by a stretch.

 

[Shane]

When was Nixon PM of Pakistan?



LOL. The claims of "this time it is different" are patently dishonest, and time will surely reveal that to be the case, like all the times before. I have no grudges, since I can afford to speak the truth freely as I have no horse in the race except the country itself. There is no rush.

And what makes you think I have horse in this race and not my country at heart when I support the undoing of Nawaz and co?

What makes you think that Gen Bajwa has a horse in the race and not the welfare of his country like you or I?

Let's watch the clearing of the political clutter of corrupt politicians one by one and then we can judge what motives were behind certain events.

If our civil institutions are weaker than military, in fact no where near as strong, then our politicians are more to blame then anyone else. Man up.

If military as an institution is strong then kudos to their discipline.

It is a law of nature, survival of the fittest.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

Only if the argument applies, which it does not, in this case, not by far. What other countries do would apply only if there was similar rule of law in Pakistan. Examples more in keeping with the situation would be Egypt, or North Korea, by a stretch.

If thats the case then why are you complaining about selective justice as this is irrelevant in a country like NK ... infact you should be arguing why NS hasnt been executed by the state yet? And could we also the stop the crusade for missing innocent bloggers and asking for due process for them in civilian court of law - as in similar countries like egypt and north korea the state institutions have the right and power to pick citizens up and make them disappear. So I hope you are not harping about ‘law’ and ‘due process’ for them now - as the same law under which you were asking for due process of the innocent missing bloggers, the same one would apply to NS and his accumulated wealth as well.

You can continue to use NK and Egypt from now on to justify and criticize any events in Pakistan.
Honestly, I dont even need to quote an example from another country to justify accountability of head of states and how this is not bad for the country. But if we want a certain aspect of our society - accountability and law in this case - to evolve into a better state than now, then we need to be quoting US and UK instead of NK and Egypt; And the purpose of these comparison is only to determine if a certain event will be good or bad for the country and should this be opposed or supported.

 

[VCheng]

Let's watch the clearing of the political clutter of corrupt politicians one by one and then we can judge what motives were behind certain events.

Sure, let's see how this situation evolves.

If military as an institution is strong then kudos to their discipline.

It is a law of nature, survival of the fittest.

Laws of nature apply in the jungle Sir. Civilized nations go by rule of law, which most definitely is not the case with the Army currently.

If thats the case then why are you complaining about selective justice as this ia irrelvant in a country like NK ... infact you should arguing why NS hasnt been executed by the state yet? And could we also the stop the crusade for missing innocent bloggers and asking for due process for them in civilian court of law - as in similar countries like egypt and north korea the state institutions have the right and power to pick citizens up and make them disappear. So I hope you are not harping about ‘law’ then - as the same law under which you were asking for due process of the innocent missing bloggers, the same one would apply to NS and his accumulated wealth as well.

You can continue to use NK and Egypt from now on to justify and criticize any events in Pakistan.
Honestly I dont even need to quote an example from another country to justify accountability of head of states and how this is not bad for the country. But if we want a certain aspect of our society - accountability and law in this case - to evolve into a better state than now, then we need to be quoting US and UK instead of NK and Egypt; And the purpose of these comparison is only to determine if a certain event will be good or bad for the country and should this be opposed or supported.

The missing persons issue and the lack of any accountability remains a matter of shame for Pakistan, but that is another topic not for this thread.

And for the record, claiming whether a certain event is good or bad for the country is meaningless in the present and eventually shown to be detrimental to the country if it is selective, arbitrary and/or illegal. How many similar past decisions that were forcibly hailed as great successes turned out to be quite the opposite? There is no evidence to indicate things are any different this time either.

 

[Verve]

@Syed.Ali.Haider Where is your proof of the 'manufactured judicial soft coup'?

If you have none then shut the hell up and stop crapping in this thread!

 

[TheDarkKnight]

The missing persons issue and the lack of any accountability remains a matter of shame for Pakistan, but that is another topic not for this thread.

Missing persons is a matter of shame from a civil rule of law point of view. I am only listing the consequences of forming opinions of Pakistani events through the lens of NK or Egypt. It nullifies all your arguments about lack of accountability accross the board for generals - and also nullifies your opnion and crticizim for missing persons.
You cant have it both ways Sir ... if NS is not to be touched and head of state are not to be held accountable as we are a third world country like NK or Egypt - then we really have to giveup on other issues of accountability of judges and generals, and the the missing sweet bloggers are not even an issue. Would any one care about a missing blogger in NK? Do you get it now?

 

[VCheng]

Missing persons is a matter of shame from a civil rule of law point of view. I am only listing the consequences of forming opinions of Pakistani events through the lens of NK or Egypt. It nullifies all your arguments about lack of accountability accross the board for generals - and also nulfies your opnion and crticizim for missing persons.
You cant have it both ways Sir ... if NS is not to be touched and head of state are not to be held accountable as we are a third world country like NK or Egypt - then we really have to giveup on other issues of accountability of judges and generals and - missing sweet bloggers are not even an issue then. Would any one care about a missing blogger in NK? Do you get it now?

Ah yes, I get it now. If Pakistan is similar to NK and Egypt, I have no right to object. Point made. I shall accept Pakistan to be in that category as you have proven it to be the case. Let the fittest survive in Pakistan. No problem for me.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

And for the record, claiming whether a certain event is good or bad for the country is meaningless in the present and eventually shown to be detrimental to the country if it is selective, arbitrary and/or illegal. How many similar past decisions that were forcibly hailed as great successes turned out to be quite the opposite? There is no evidence to indicate things are any different this time either.

If only looking at past, then yes you have the right to be sceptical. But whats different now is:
- A PM wasnt thrown out illegaly by a milltary coup and then brokered a deal with a foreign govt - that is not even democratic - to enforce how a democratic leader stays in exile (what irony!)
- It was through a legal proceeding in court, and headed by the best judges we can have in this country; not one but 5 of them. So the odds of all 5 of them were influenced are none.
- in the past military was actively involved in plots - covertly and overtly. So far there havent been any concrete evidence to support the claim that milltary was involved in influencing the judges.... yet.

 

[VCheng]

If only looking at past, then yes you have the right to be sceptical. But whats different now is:
- A PM wasnt thrown out illegaly by a milltary coup and then brokered a deal with a foreign govt - that is not even democratic - to enforce how a democratic leader stays in exile (what irony!)
- It was through a legal proceeding in court, and headed by the best judges we can have in this country; not one but 5 of them. So the odds of all 5 of them were influenced are none.
- in the past military was actively involved in plots - covertly and overtly. So far there havent been any concrete evidence to support the claim that milltary was involved in influencing the judges.... yet.

At least you can understand the grounds for my skepticism. As for your arguments about what is different now, let me just say that we need to give it some time to evaluate the consequences, without analyzing or contesting their accuracy.

As I said before, I regard the coming elections, if and when they are held, to be crucial for the country. They need to be held fairly. Already, steps are afoot to not take into account the results of the census to degrade their results, if not downright delegitimize them.