PakPositivism: How to manage Discourse for PakPosters on PDF!!!

[Amaa'n]

Locking the thread temporarily,
let me clean up some reports & i will start with clean up process on this thread. Till then, lets jam that hype!!

Attention:
For those, whose posts have been deleted please stay away from thread with your off-topic discussions.

I did the same for Indian members the other day & a thread was dedicated for them on CoC. Same is being asked here, let Pakistani members to discuss their CoC in peace too.

If any more reports from this thread are received, member will be banned from replying in the thread & infraction issued.

Clean up process for thread is still on going, will open once all reports are cleared up

Update:
Thread is Open for discussion. have mercy on mods please

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Locking the thread temporarily,
let me clean up some reports & i will start with clean up process on this thread. Till then, lets jam that hype!!

Attention:
For those, whose posts have been deleted please stay away from thread with your off-topic discussions.

I did the same for Indian members the other day & a thread was dedicated for them on CoC. Same is being asked here, let Pakistani members to discuss their CoC in peace too.

If any more reports from this thread are received, member will be banned from replying in the thread & infraction issued.

Clean up process for thread is still on going, will open once all reports are cleared up

Update:
Thread is Open for discussion. have mercy on mods please

Thankyou!!!

 

[313ghazi]

Discourse on this forum will improve when we get rid of the Indian centric focus and get rid of the reactive nature of our comments. We need to focus on the issues being discussed and not get side tracked by trolling and emotions. Also as OP mentions we need to recognise the traits of those who don't have our best interests at heart.

I'll give you an example from the last few days. @Alternatiiv created a topic about Pervez Hoodbhoy and his toxic ramblings on the new education curriculum. It's 12 pages long now? Mostly people busy shouting kafir-terrorist at each other. I don't doubt @Alternatiiv's intentions, but in my opinion Dawn, it's editorial team and Hoodbhoy have an agenda against our nations core values - why get so busy expressing your disgust at him for the nth time? Many people linked tweets to the actual curriculum (tweets which expose Hoodboys lies) but neither side was interested in discussing them - only on imposing their own views on the other.

I created an alternative topic to actually discuss the curriculum - i don't think we've hit the second page. It's game changing potentially - but people aren't willing to do some research to form an informed opinion on the content itself, instead it's easy to cheerlead your world view behind the Pakistan and Islam hating hoodbhoy or alternatively to shout kafir at him.

It's immaturity. Indian trolls on this forum (note how i didn't say members) exploit this immaturity all the time. People can't help themselves. Just report the trolls and walk away - stick to the topic on hand. The trolls are here deliberately to engage with you negatively. They hate you and many of them are paid to express this hatred and their so called superiority online. There is no discussing with them - we need the mods to just shut them down.

Indian members on the other hand should definitely be engaged with. People should try to be polite in their exchanges and stick to facts. Also listen to opinions. There is a lot of misinformation about us in wider Indian society due to decades of propaganda by the Indian media. This is an opportunity to undo some of that work. It's normal to be suspicious of intentions and there are some people here who are in for the long troll... but you need to be disciplined and wary of what they're trying.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Discourse on this forum will improve when we get rid of the Indian centric focus and get rid of the reactive nature of our comments. We need to focus on the issues being discussed and not get side tracked by trolling and emotions. Also as OP mentions we need to recognise the traits of those who don't have our best interests at heart.

I'll give you an example from the last few days. @Alternatiiv created a topic about Pervez Hoodbhoy and his toxic ramblings on the new education curriculum. It's 12 pages long now? Mostly people busy shouting kafir-terrorist at each other. I don't doubt @Alternatiiv's intentions, but in my opinion Dawn, it's editorial team and Hoodbhoy have an agenda against our nations core values - why get so busy expressing your disgust at him for the nth time? Many people linked tweets to the actual curriculum (tweets which expose Hoodboys lies) but neither side was interested in discussing them - only on imposing their own views on the other.

I created an alternative topic to actually discuss the curriculum - i don't think we've hit the second page. It's game changing potentially - but people aren't willing to do some research to form an informed opinion on the content itself, instead it's easy to cheerlead your world view behind the Pakistan and Islam hating hoodbhoy or alternatively to shout kafir at him.

It's immaturity. Indian trolls on this forum (note how i didn't say members) exploit this immaturity all the time. People can't help themselves. Just report the trolls and walk away - stick to the topic on hand. The trolls are here deliberately to engage with you negatively. They hate you and many of them are paid to express this hatred and their so called superiority online. There is no discussing with them - we need the mods to just shut them down.

Indian members on the other hand should definitely be engaged with. People should try to be polite in their exchanges and stick to facts. Also listen to opinions. There is a lot of misinformation about us in wider Indian society due to decades of propaganda by the Indian media. This is an opportunity to undo some of that work. It's normal to be suspicious of intentions and there are some people here who are in for the long troll... but you need to be disciplined and wary of what they're trying.

Then isn't the best course of action to promote the image of Pakistan and Pakistanis in the two nations we have the greatest links and relationships with? That is, to promote greater people to people contact and cultural exchanges with Turkey and China? How do we go about doing this?

 

[Musings]

Beautifully put.

Obviously not to some Indian members.

The problem Pakistani members have is deciphering who is "soft trolling" - who is attempting to belittle Pakistan and who is genuine.
When posts go up on petrol shortages in Pakistan - then encouraging Indians to come in with their boot sniggering - one starts questioning the intent of all.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/students-from-pakistan-beaten-outside-bishkek-in-kyrgyzstan.676976/

The thread above is another example of - what is the point and objective of this thread?
Some lads get into a scuffle - the culprits are arrested - yet someone thinks it merits starting a thread about it. Question comes to mind is - whats the intent? Why has it been posted? Is it to rile Pakistani members to insinuate Pakistanis are disliked and look - they get their heads in OR is this a genuine news story?
Patriots like @PAKISTANFOREVER or @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan have been here for a while and they have the experience to see through it and eventually get p1ssed off with - unfortunately branding ALL Indians of being of a similar character.

Basically its not an easy ground to walk through and come to the correct decision IMO.

 

[peagle]

Obviously not to some Indian members.

The problem Pakistani members have is deciphering who is "soft trolling" - who is attempting to belittle Pakistan and who is genuine.
When posts go up on petrol shortages in Pakistan - then encouraging Indians to come in with their boot sniggering - one starts questioning the intent of all.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/students-from-pakistan-beaten-outside-bishkek-in-kyrgyzstan.676976/

The thread above is another example of - what is the point and objective of this thread?
Some lads get into a scuffle - the culprits are arrested - yet someone thinks it merits starting a thread about it. Question comes to mind is - whats the intent? Why has it been posted? Is it to rile Pakistani members to insinuate Pakistanis are disliked and look - they get their heads in OR is this a genuine news story?
Patriots like @PAKISTANFOREVER or @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan have been here for a while and they have the experience to see through it and eventually get p1ssed off with - unfortunately branding ALL Indians of being of a similar character.

Basically its not an easy ground to walk through and come to the correct decision IMO.

Again, beautifully put.

I don't wish to add, because I feel you have encapsulated the essence of this point.

Now let's get back to Mangus's original point

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Obviously not to some Indian members.

The problem Pakistani members have is deciphering who is "soft trolling" - who is attempting to belittle Pakistan and who is genuine.
When posts go up on petrol shortages in Pakistan - then encouraging Indians to come in with their boot sniggering - one starts questioning the intent of all.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/students-from-pakistan-beaten-outside-bishkek-in-kyrgyzstan.676976/

The thread above is another example of - what is the point and objective of this thread?
Some lads get into a scuffle - the culprits are arrested - yet someone thinks it merits starting a thread about it. Question comes to mind is - whats the intent? Why has it been posted? Is it to rile Pakistani members to insinuate Pakistanis are disliked and look - they get their heads in OR is this a genuine news story?
Patriots like @PAKISTANFOREVER or @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan have been here for a while and they have the experience to see through it and eventually get p1ssed off with - unfortunately branding ALL Indians of being of a similar character.

Basically its not an easy ground to walk through and come to the correct decision IMO.

I think the best way to move forward and promote a Positive Pakistani discourse is to greatly reduce indian participation on PDF and promote FAR greater Chinese and Turkish participation here. The ground reality is that Pakistan's short and long term future prosperity and image is going to greatly depend on our relationships with both China and Turkey. Hence we need FAR greater people to people contact and cultural exchanges with both these nations. This will become more and more apparent and important as the years go by.

Our permanent enmity and deep seated visceral hatred with india is a done deal that will never change. Hence all contact with india should diminish and with time become negligible. I think we are moving in this direction. Our future and destiny is not linked to the immediate East of us but rather with China and Turkey. To a lesser extent, with Iran and Afghanistan as well. Our focus should be on these geopolitical realities.

PS Getting back to the OP, What can Pakistan and Pakistanis do to improve our image; people to people contact and cultural exchanges with China and Turkey?

Any ideas?

 

[Sharma Ji]

I think the best way to move forward and promote a Positive Pakistani discourse is to greatly reduce indian participation on PDF and promote FAR greater Chinese and Turkish participation here.

Echo chamber circle jerking ftw ! then ?

One must listen to opposing points of view to evolve their own.

This forum should allow a healthy exchange of ideas between Indians and Pakistanis even if they fundamentally disagree on many of them. We can all grow by learning from each other.

These sweeping generalizations serve no purpose. We're all humans here, most of us civvies, which is maybe a bit of a shame, because from what I've seen, people in the forces have a very healthy respect for their adversaries.

Among the professionals in the armed forces of both of our countries, you're way more likely to find respect than hatred.

Cant speak for Pakistanis as I've never known a soldier but I do know many in India and am friends with a few US and Uk servicemen who have seen combat. They are not hateful people, far from it, in fact.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Echo chamber circle jerking ftw ! then ?

One must listen to opposing points of view to evolve their own.

This forum should allow a healthy exchange of ideas between Indians and Pakistanis even if they fundamentally disagree on many of them. We can all grow by learning from each other.

These sweeping generalizations serve no purpose. We're all humans here, most of us civvies, which is maybe a bit of a shame, because from what I've seen, people in the forces have a very healthy respect for their adversaries.

Among the professionals in the armed forces of both of our countries, you're way more likely to find respect than hatred.

Cant speak for Pakistanis as I've never known a soldier but I do know many in India and am friends with a few US and Uk servicemen who have seen combat. They are not hateful people, far from it, in fact.

That will NEVER EVER happen on PDF or on any other Pakistani forums as there are always lots of Pakistanis who are very articulate in being critical of all aspects of Pakistan. The chances of a Pakistani forum becoming an echo chamber are virtually negligible.

What we certainly don't need on PDF is our permanent eternal enemies trolling, derailing our threads and spouting their extreme anti-Pakistani, anti-Muslim racism and hatred on our forums. There are plenty of indian forums to do that on, why come here?

Also, indian participation on PDF is becoming increasingly obsolete, irrelevant and meaningless as Pakistan's future becomes increasingly intertwinned with that of China and Turkey. The discourse between Pakistan, China and Turkey is what counts for us. Nothing else.

 

[Sharma Ji]

That will NEVER EVER happen on PDF or on any other Pakistani forums as there are always lots of Pakistanis who are very articulate in being critical of all aspects of Pakistan. The chances of a Pakistani forum becoming an echo chamber are virtually negligible.

yes I've seen some of the infighting in your internal matters, good stuff.

What we certainly don't need on PDF is our permanent eternal enemies trolling, derailing our threads and spouting their extreme anti-Pakistani, anti-Muslim racism and hatred on our forums. There are plenty of indian forums to do that on, why come here?

Our relations with China Russia Turkey Iran are re aligning and gaining with new partnerships. India is living in a fake environment where it believes by cosying up to Trumps USA it will have a new life buddy.

I agree with dealing with the trolls but you can't really decouple from India as far as policy or discourse goes.

If you ban all Indians or the Indian perspective on this forum, all you're left with is our sansani media.

why kill real dialogue and interaction when we can talk and exchange ideas instead ?

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Toheed! Toheed! Toheed!

Itihad! Iman! Tanzeem!

The Idea of Pakistan is the Most Powerful Idea in the World. Why?

OurLand, The Heartland, Pakistan is healing from deep wounds, many of them self-inflicted...

Pakistan has become a SoftState for we are still in a deep slumber!!!

Imagine we become True to The Idea of Pakistan and come out of our comma!!

• My very dear Paks, how difficult it is to have Self-Discipline?

• How difficult it is to ignore and not take the bait of certain posters ... and focus on the Topic?

• How difficult it is to not remain focused on Our CollectiveMind and apply it Together?

For some will not like that the Paks come out of their slumber and keep distracted ..following truck ki bati as @Ace of Spades has eloquently remined us!

Just ignore the distractors, report the attempted sabbotage of PakPositivism and connect with The Topic!

@forcetrip PakBrother mine, is Correct!

Let us not just qoute OurElders but also try to follow them in Word and Deed i.e. Character.

Back to topic:

What is India's End Game?

A few Markers:

• Mr. Gandhi doing the tours of then BritishIndian parts of Pakistan and establishing close relationships with EthnoNationalists

• Mr. Nehru holding our funds after Independence

• Mr. Nehru predicting that Pakistan will vanish shortly just like dew drops in the early morning sun.

• When Mr. Nehru died we announced (three?) days of PakState mourning

• Indian Embassy in Kabul with the support of KGB and Khad establishing relationships with EthnoNationalists and Surkhas ... funding and training

• EthnoNationalist wagging war against the PakState in that time-period being funded by India, KabulRegime and KGB... those terrorists always used to seek shelter and weapons from Kabul

• Cultivating and deepening of linkages and building assets by RAW in EthnoNationalist in Pakistan with generous funding...the process which started with Mr. Gandhi

• Field Marashal Ayyub Khan showed Nehru the maps which we had agreed with China... a typical Pak OpenHeartedness... but Mr. Nehru goes back and orders the Chinese territories be shown as Indian.. everywhere from SouthBlock to the schools

• Pak not joining the PLA in 1962 at the convincing of UK and US ...was rewarded with 1965 attack...with desire to have FuntastikTea in Lahore!

• IndianRAW funding generously to oppose KalabaghDam and supporting SindhNationalists and BalochNationalists (continuing to this day!)

• Mrs. IndraGhandi triumphly porclaimed that she has thrown the Two Nation Theory in the Bay of Bengal

• Mrs. SoniaGhandi proclaiming that with Bollywood in every Pakistani home ... xxxxx

• India offering the Americans bases to 'send Pakistan to stonge age' in the aftermath of 9/11

• IndianRAW and NDS working hand in glove and training, financing terror outfits like TTP, BLA, BRA, PTM, MQM-London and having deep ingress within religious organisation within Pakistan

• Funding via Norway of Khooni-Liberals and LiffafaJurnos... continuing

• After every IndianFalseFlag crying, wailing to have Pakistan Declared a TerrorState... process is still ongoing

• Putting Pakistan in FATF and doing everything to have Pakistan BlackListed

• Mr. Doval publically accepting that India is to exploit the 'deep fractures' within PakSociety i.e. EthnoFacists

• Mr. Doval announcing $500mln fund to stop CPEC

• India deploying agressive diplomacy to not allow ADB or WB to allocate funds for Dams in AJK or GB

• India expoliting Kabulistan and Iran to spread IndianTerrorism in Pakistan and create a wedge between our Brotherly Neighbours to OurWest.

• Positioning massive troops in 2002 to divert Pak's attention from the Western border..so that the Terror Proxies of India could hold and develop...

• India's stated ForeignPolicy objective to Isolate Pakistan ...

• Creating fake websites from different countries to spread disinformation about Pakistan and flooding the internet... with Indian Google purposefully sprussing news about PakKashmiris in IoJK or any good news about Pakistan ( @The Eagle has great thread on this topic...worth visiting in Strategic n FA section)

• PulwamanDrama was not just about having Modi win a landslide...but to create a casus belli for FATF...which was meeting after the IndiaFalseFlag!

• A FAFT blacklisted Pakistan will just collapse economically and thus social unrest that comes with.... Indians still pursuing this plan

And many, many more sequential events can be mapped to have a validated view about the India's End Game!

The Indian Hybridwar on Pakistan continues to this day.. with the sudden peak in IndianTerrorism in OurLand...with Indian assets trying to weaken the Idea of Pakistan ... MarasiMedia daily tamasha...

And it might be provocative to say... but why not!

This is what States do.. this is StateCraft!

We have caught The Monkey and has his full video confession and more importantly the Information he provided OurSecurityManagers... was critical in dismanteling Mr. Jadev's TerrorNetwork.

APS!

[Sidebar: PakKashmiris in massgraves, gang raped as Weapon of Indian War on PakKashmiris, blinded, sodomised, tortured and now those YoungPakKashmiri stone pelters, 14.000+, kidnapped by the good IndianArmy...
Or that one PakKashmiris selling dry fruit beating with logs by the good orange clad Indians...
Or breaking bones, destroying houses...
Or forcing the PakKashmiris after extreme tortures to say Pakistan Mxxxxxd ... it tells us something... ]

Bengladesh was envisioned to be indpendent long before 71... so if the good Indians with their TerrorProxies 'won' ... let it be so.
We don't have to respond. Be Done with it!

Once again, PakBrothers/Sisters, let us apply Our CollectiveMind without bias or impulse... Rationally, Logically and with utter Detachment... let us, Paks, together build, expand on the Possible IndianEndGame ...then we can funnel it/condense it to tangible.

The thread is NOT about the good Indians..rather about IndianState's policies independent of who is the PM of theirs.
So no need to bring the good Indians into OurDiscourse.

Once again: What is India's EndGame?

Itihad!
Iman!
Tanzeem!

Est Bellum.

Mangus

 

[masterchief_mirza]

They don't want any actual wars with Pakistan: that's bad for business. They only want the nationalistic jingoism, and loud sound bytes. It helps their agenda.

Disagree. Altering the status quo in Kashmir and abrogating its unique autonomous status and making moves to upend its Islamic character and identity all constitute a declaration of war against Pakistan. In fact, they're multiple such declarations. Modi is already at war with Pakistan. Modi thinks he can sustain this war AND develop economically. He's deluded in many ways - this is just one. Now you're being truly naive.

 

[peagle]

I think the best way to move forward and promote a Positive Pakistani discourse is to greatly reduce indian participation on PDF and promote FAR greater Chinese and Turkish participation here. The ground reality is that Pakistan's short and long term future prosperity and image is going to greatly depend on our relationships with both China and Turkey. Hence we need FAR greater people to people contact and cultural exchanges with both these nations. This will become more and more apparent and important as the years go by.

Our permanent enmity and deep seated visceral hatred with india is a done deal that will never change. Hence all contact with india should diminish and with time become negligible. I think we are moving in this direction. Our future and destiny is not linked to the immediate East of us but rather with China and Turkey. To a lesser extent, with Iran and Afghanistan as well. Our focus should be on these geopolitical realities.

PS Getting back to the OP, What can Pakistan and Pakistanis do to improve our image; people to people contact and cultural exchanges with China and Turkey?

Any ideas?

I agree with the basic premise of your argument, it is indeed where we are heading, but, for me, it is a shame, we should be able to look both ways and see friends and brothers to our left and right.

The fact is Pakistan's unique position has placed us at a junction where we rightfully can claim heritage from South Asia, Central Asia, Arabic cultures, Persian cultures, Turkic cultures, Afghan cultures, and even China to a lesser degree. We have historical links to each of these civilizations.

Very few countries in this world can make such claims, to ignore an essential part of cultural and linguistic heritage would be extremely unwise.
Yes we are not where we should be, but, does that mean you give up, I say no, never.

Mangus, if I understand him, has the right idea, let us explore this relationship so we can protect ourselves but at the same time show the Indians the folly of their ways. Like it or not, we are a part of the same cultural family, it's not to say full-stop, only them and no-one else. As previously mentioned we carry with us a rich history that spreads to every direction and into different cultures. Enjoy this unique heritage that we have, rather than get exasperated and cut one of them off completely.

But, I do agree with you that, we 110% need to make more of an effort to increase people to people and academic contact with all the others, which sadly is lacking.

I want to say more, but I hope the essence of my point is on display.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

yes I've seen some of the infighting in your internal matters, good stuff.


I agree with dealing with the trolls but you can't really decouple from India as far as policy or discourse goes.

If you ban all Indians or the Indian perspective on this forum, all you're left with is our sansani media.

why kill real dialogue and interaction when we can talk and exchange ideas instead ?

From our perspective as far as indian is concerned, ALL we need to know is how to fight india in case of a war as it is our eternal permanent enemy. That's it. NOTHING else. There is NOTHING else Pakistanis can learn from having discourse with indians. It always ends up in racism or trolling anyway. That's the reality.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

About 69%. Yes, it is a diminishing majority. However, Indian elections have a strong anti-incumbency tendency.

There are numerous problems with your gross simplifications Joe. You know it and so do I - I just don't have the time to go into depth deconstructing this fairy tale. Your 39% or 31% or whatever it is doesn't actually mean anything of substance. Firstly, turnout is hugely important when declaring a vote result as representative of opinion - 67%, which is good but that leaves 33% whose votes you don't know about. Secondly, India uses a first past the post electoral system, which is how Modi came to power. That percentage translates into an overwhelming absolute majority of seats, partly due to misrepresentation of constituencies (but, all democracies are broken in this way so I won't dwell on that specific issue). What is undeniably true in India's case is that in every region or state or territory represented by BJP in parliament, there are more than enough bhakts to drown out the sane voices or make them cower in fear. Muslims are cleverly diluted beyond the point of any meaningful ability to represent their interests. By further cornering security apparatus, media and industry, BJP and their quiet sympathisers have absolute control over your life and the narrative you are forced to read. Even if your group of merry liberals wish to influence this reality, you can't. You are well aware that 39% does NOT represent the mass effect of bhakt opinion in India and is an underestimation in all probability. This is why one cannot use vote results (even after assuming they're free and fair) as a representation of opinion on specific social/political issues. This much should be obvious. Vote results are meant to elect a parliament, nothing else can be extrapolated from them without corroborating evidence. So if you wish for folks to believe your "silent cuddly majority" exists, prove it.