Pakistan's next generation national warships: Jinnah Class Frigates

[sparten]

Thank you for sharing this information, despite the gloomy ending, there are enough positives to fill a mountain.
Before we sign, seal and deliver our lack of this and that, let's please remember the 40 plus years of conflicts and wars on our doorsteps, we all know they played a major part in our predicaments.

It's just a simple reminder, and I'm very certain we'll be back on track, very soon.

It’s isn’t gloomy. Progress is never linear, it happens in fits and starts. No one is inherently backward.

 

[Super Falcon]

 

[kursed]

You’d be impressed how well Pakistan did with ToT sometimes, metallurgy is obviously not an easy task, but someone in the early 2000s was making very good decisions when it came to ToT at HIT, POF and now it seems even the PSM, despite the corruption issues that went with the 90B project.
The expertise received from Germany and France in this regard allowed Pakistan to make some stuff that one would never expect from a country with an industry so lacking (modern Fire control systems, and other tank related technology, France helped there. High quality gun barrels and small arms/ammo, Germany helped there).

India still has trouble making gun barrels and wasn’t able to develop a proper FCS system until the Arjun MK-1A finally came about. While Pakistan was making Gun barrels for Al-Khalids back in 2007 (not to mentioned larger barrels for M109s and even on the VT-4s now, the barrels are Pakistani, we replaced a Chinese component with a Pakistani one, I think that deserves a little more emphasis, that’s how much that ToT taught us) and made local upgrades to the original Al-Khalids FCS with French help, eventually leading to it making an entirely new 32 Bit FCS for the AK-1.

While Pakistan was making H&Ks firearms at a quality high enough that the actual factories in Germany were impressed, India was stuck with the INSAS. While Pakistan was making South Korean ammo for artillery that never once malfunctioned and designed its own DU penetator that performed better than the best Chinese round offered for service at the time, Indian soldiers were dying due to premature explosions caused by faulty ammo in artillery or were using Obsolete Soviet ammo for tanks (they still do).

Unfortunately they’re the ones improving now while we stand still, we’ve almost lost the lead we had.

A majority of that improvement within is owed to the help we got from outside, no one is now willing to export technology to Pakistan any more - which is why the lead will suffer. At least until the Chinese get better and get willing to share a portion of that with Pak.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

A majority of that improvement within is owed to the help we got from outside, no one is now willing to export technology to Pakistan any more - which is why the lead will suffer. At least until the Chinese get better and get willing to share a portion of that with Pak.

Moreover, our lack of willingness to collaborate on technology projects with Turkey, Ukraine, and South Africa has also blunted our ability to advance. India has done its part to cut us off where it can, but poor decision-making also did its fair share to limit our exposure.

 

[PakAlp]

The Babur class corvette is based on the Ada class corvette (2500T). It is around 500 ton heavier, totally 3000 tons, which is similar to the Istanbul class frigates in weight. Instead of a lighter 2500T Pakistan chose a heavier upgraded corvette with tech from Ada and Istanbul class frigates.

The Jinnah class is 3500T frigate being developed with Turkish help, this is heavier than the Istanbul class frigates, it is upgraded frigate with Pakistani design input, and design input from Istanbul class/tf2000 destroyer.

Jinnah class

Tf2000 destroyer

 

[iLION12345_1]

A majority of that improvement within is owed to the help we got from outside, no one is now willing to export technology to Pakistan any more - which is why the lead will suffer. At least until the Chinese get better and get willing to share a portion of that with Pak.

Completely agreed, but even then, the foreign help wouldn’t have arrived if we didn’t let it, and it certainly wouldn’t have been as useful if we didn’t use it the right way, even now, we don’t see Pakistan actively pushing to work with any foreign country at all, even though there’s still options.

 

[maverick1977]

The Babur class corvette is based on the Ada class corvette (2500T). It is around 500 ton heavier, totally 3000 tons, which is similar to the Istanbul class frigates in weight. Instead of a lighter 2500T Pakistan chose a heavier upgraded corvette with tech from Ada and Istanbul class frigates.

The Jinnah class is 3500T frigate being developed with Turkish help, this is heavier than the Istanbul class frigates, it is upgraded frigate with Pakistani design input, and design input from Istanbul class/tf2000 destroyer.

Jinnah class
View attachment 815024

Tf2000 destroyer
View attachment 815025

Jinnah looks like 16 VLS

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

lack of willingness to collaborate on technology projects with Turkey

Don't know about others but our collaboration with Turkey has sky rocketed in recent years.Milgem corvettes,Jinnah frigate contracts with Navy to recent MoU with SUPARCO and NESCOM ,there is huge collaboration with Turkey.And this will probably decrease with time not increase.This exactly resembles to Pak China defence collaboration of early 2000s era.
@PanzerKiel has also hinted that PAF will collaborate with another country for Fifth generation fighter aircraft and also said that it will not come before 2045 . this timeline exactly matches to that of Turkish TFX.

So why do not you think that our planners made good decisions regarding TOT from turkey?

 

[PakAlp]

Jinnah looks like 16 VLS

Istanbul class also has 16 VLS. Jinnah class is 500T heavier so hopefully they will be more upgraded.

 

[PakAlp]

Don't know about others but our collaboration with Turkey has sky rocketed in recent years.Milgem corvettes,Jinnah frigate contracts with Navy to recent MoU with SUPARCO and NESCOM ,there is huge collaboration with Turkey.And this will probably decrease with time not increase.This exactly resembles to Pak China defence collaboration of early 2000s era.
@PanzerKiel has also hinted that PAF will collaborate with another country for Fifth generation fighter aircraft and also said that it will not come before 2045 . this timeline exactly matches to that of Turkish TFX.

So why do not you think that our planners made good decisions regarding TOT from turkey?

Pakistan used to import from Usa/France and China, with France/USA not willing to sell us cutting edge technologies we should consider ourselves fortunate that Turkey is slowly becoming a giant in military technology. Pakistan made the right choice, with us buying ships from Turkey, this is helping Turks with more investment and eventually it will benefit us. We will collaborate from ships, drones, tanks, missiles to tfx.

 

[Zarvan]

The Babur class corvette is based on the Ada class corvette (2500T). It is around 500 ton heavier, totally 3000 tons, which is similar to the Istanbul class frigates in weight. Instead of a lighter 2500T Pakistan chose a heavier upgraded corvette with tech from Ada and Istanbul class frigates.

The Jinnah class is 3500T frigate being developed with Turkish help, this is heavier than the Istanbul class frigates, it is upgraded frigate with Pakistani design input, and design input from Istanbul class/tf2000 destroyer.

Jinnah class
View attachment 815024

Tf2000 destroyer
View attachment 815025

I really hope and wish even now that this doesn't turn out to be Jinah class not even close. We need a much bigger beast. We need a very heavy Frigate and light Destroyer with at least 32 VLS. 16 for Air Defence and 16 for Land Attack Cruise Missiles. I really can't see why we would go for this type of Jinah class.

We need this kind of thing as Jinah class not the one above.

 

[PakAlp]

I really hope and wish even now that this doesn't turn out to be Jinah class not even close. We need a much bigger beast. We need a very heavy Frigate and light Destroyer with at least 32 VLS. 16 for Air Defence and 16 for Land Attack Cruise Missiles. I really can't see why we would go for this type of Jinah class.

View attachment 815153


We need this kind of thing as Jinah class not the one above.

Definitely 32 VLS would be more suitable. Pakistan navy is probably waiting for the Turkish tf2000 destroyer for bigger firepower. 6 Destroyers with 64 VLS would be lethal

 

[araz]

I really hope and wish even now that this doesn't turn out to be Jinah class not even close. We need a much bigger beast. We need a very heavy Frigate and light Destroyer with at least 32 VLS. 16 for Air Defence and 16 for Land Attack Cruise Missiles. I really can't see why we would go for this type of Jinah class.

View attachment 815153


We need this kind of thing as Jinah class not the one above.

Can you explain to me why you need 32 VLS launchers. What capacity does the IN/IAF have for ASMs and how many do you see coming towards the PN ship in one go. Similarly under what scenarios do you see a saturation attack on a PNS ship and how many planes do you see doing that.
You want things just because the US Navy has them or the PLAN has them. Can you do a detailed analysis on what the difference between the needs of these 2 would be as against PN.
ONCEyou have answered the questions raised we can debate the value of having 32 VLS.
While you are at it can you calculate the cost of launching a ship filled with 32 missiles
A

 

[Zarvan]

Can you explain to me why you need 32 VLS launchers. What capacity does the IN/IAF have for ASMs and how many do you see coming towards the PN ship in one go. Similarly under what scenarios do you see a saturation attack on a PNS ship and how many planes do you see doing that.
You want things just because the US Navy has them or the PLAN has them. Can you do a detailed analysis on what the difference between the needs of these 2 would be as against PN.
ONCEyou have answered the questions raised we can debate the value of having 32 VLS.
While you are at it can you calculate the cost of launching a ship filled with 32 missiles
A

I am asking for land attack capability. When I say 32 VLS in that eight anti ship missiles are not included they are separate. Look at French FREMM Frigate it has 32 VLS and 8 Anti Ship Missiles. India as of now doesn't have 1000 KM Brahmos or Nirbhay but they are working on them and will soon have them. And when they would have them they would unleash hell on Karachi and Gawader through them. 1000 KM is minimum you can expect them to go for 1600 to 2400 to even more long range missiles. In 1971 they did operation python through missile boats now they would do it through their destroyers like Kolkata class and PL 15 and Talwar class Frigates and without even entering our waters. And as for how many they would launch them in salvos. Just like Russia tested 12 Hypersonic from one ship on few different targets soon India will be launching 1000 to 1600 to way more range cruise missiles on Karachi and Gawader and other southern areas of Pakistan.

This capability which I am asking for I am more then sure Navy will go for it. My only concern is they would go for it after India will do this to us or they are smart enough this time to immediately go for this technology. So if India tries to do that too Karachi and Gawader and other southern parts of Pakistan. They should know that we can do exactly the same to Mumbai, Goa, Banglauru, Hyderabad, Chennai and others. I am more then sure I am right on this I mean that our Navy needs this technology and I am pretty sure Navy would realize it. My only hope is they realize it before India teaches them a lesson by unleashing hell on Karachi and Gawader.

 

[sparten]

Jinnah looks like 16 VLS

Depends on how big the VLS are and what they are packing.
16 SAM's sucks.
16 Hypersonic P272 is a deadly warship.

You want things just because the US Navy has them or the PLAN has them. Can you do a detailed analysis on what the difference between the needs of these 2 would be as against PN.

Yes. USN and now PLAN DDG are designed to escort carrier and amphibious groups. Our warships are meant to lead surface action groups.
USN DDG's especially have limited AShM capability (until the new LRSM enters service).