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Pakistan's next generation national warships: Jinnah Class Frigates

Yep agree. For result oriented ship building capability that can sustain & modernize this above point is extremely important. We need to gel commercial sector with defense industry. Navy needs to give tenders for small or even bigger whatever components from local industry. Also I believe we are not even using our existing defense organisation with full capacity or collaboration. The whole chain of SPD departments have all sort of machinery in them. Overall we may have better potential but we lack proper management of available resources.
The most eye-catching inputs are steel, engines and electronics. However, ships and aircraft comprise of many other inputs (e.g. piping, chemical agents, etc) that make the full system. If we start localizing these through each successive wave of ships, we'll build a strong industry that can reduce the cost of our arms and get us on the map with exports.
 
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As far as I remember the steel of last Agosta submarine was produced in Pakistan Steels Mills.
Very few steel plants in the world can produce HY 80/100 class nonmagnetic submarine steel (highly alloyed austenitic steels etc.) within the appropriate mass production specifications. If Pakistan has this ability, it's an excellent detail.
 
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Fair enough, Good & valid points.

My views were built around the past history plus whats happening right now. The only major concern is what I feel is perhaps PN's ability to absorb the technical knowledge and make it part of the processes within its ship building, I could be wrong but I have not heard any steps taken in this regard. Perhaps its all secretive or maybe i am simply unaware. For-example, in PAF case, We actually see steps on ground in this direction. Like aviation city, like center for A.I, successful existing running programs like JF from which valuable experience can be taken (unlike Navy as its old programs never saw the daylight ). Navy needs the kind of eco-system in form of various institutes, technology & engineering companies being tasked or dedicated for specific equipment etc. Plus the environment of innovation and R & D, so navy won't really require help of others everytime, I am sure there are lot of navies which are having successful ship building capabilities but never needed foreign help at every step, because the eco-system, the partnership of commercial industries with defense sector and sustainable HR (training & institutes) all collaborate. Once this all starts to happen then we'll be certain that yes the program is getting mature with a solid base. Otherwise, i see 1 ship and end of line.
Many would disagree but I have my own views, I would rather wanted Navy to build 1500 ton corvette in-house with its own innovation & experiences. Ofcourse it would have utilized all the experience it gained from F-22P or FACs manufacturing. The critical components could have been imported. But the kind of confidence & foundation it could have laid down for future improved & bigger ships. The indians, the turks, everyone started at some point. Nevertheless, we decided to start with frigate, lets hope it establish the self sufficiency & confidence that we don't have to contact foreign countries after the first ship for next upgraded and bigger version.

Reading this made me smile because it reminded me of the eternal Pakistani self doubt that refuses to part with us lol

I think most of us will understand exactly what you are trying to say, but yours is essentially the chicken or the egg argument, what came first, or should come first. I'm certain you are already aware that not every step is a finite solution in itself, and the learning process is a continuous one, where missteps will continue to occur.
You only have to look at America's recent ship building attempts, it has had to backtrack in many of its programs. Now, no-one can accuse America of not being experienced and not knowing what it is doing. Please show patience with Pakistan, let the steps follow it's course, and nudge when they go off track, but please do not discourage in totality.

I do not know much about Turkish shipbuilding industry, but with the Ottoman history, I am sure they had a rich history to fall back on, which provided an impetus for their recent successes. South Korea developed under the American shadow and Japanese cooperation.

If you look into India's ship building industry, East India company had built one of the best dockyards in the world, in Bombay around the early 1800s, so British backed Indian ship building is 200 years old, and yet, they are still building with foreign assistance, they are still not fully capable.

Considering others, I would say we haven't done too badly, and it's even better that we are continuing with our efforts, so rather then continuous persistent self doubt, those efforts need to be supported.
Stay blessed.
 
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Pakistan Steel or Peoples Steel? as most specialty steels and alloys with defence applications are done there.

Edit: Yep, it’s People’s Steel Mill. Page 20, line 3


@Bilal Khan (Quwa)
hmm...I'm going to pull a @JamD and say I don't think it's what we hope it is.

It looks like a legend/key to describe different steel types. It seems PSMLtd only forges the steel in its Excel sheet, which is still pretty good but doesn't include HLES 80. However, I think with enough domestic incentives, like manufacturing a dozen submarines at home, they might try developing that capability.
 

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  • steeltype.xls
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hmm...I'm going to pull a @JamD and say I don't think it's what we hope it is.

It looks like a legend/key to describe different steel types. It seems PSMLtd only forges the steel in its Excel sheet, which is still pretty good but doesn't include HLES 80. However, I think with enough domestic incentives, like manufacturing a dozen submarines at home, they might try developing that capability.
The pdf I shared is a product list:

1644202777520.png
 
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The most eye-catching inputs are steel, engines and electronics. However, ships and aircraft comprise of many other inputs (e.g. piping, chemical agents, etc) that make the full system. If we start localizing these through each successive wave of ships, we'll build a strong industry that can reduce the cost of our arms and get us on the map with exports.
Few think like this. Most out to make a quick buck in arms transaction. Hope more sense prevails in time.
 
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Very few steel plants in the world can produce HY 80/100 class nonmagnetic submarine steel (highly alloyed austenitic steels etc.) within the appropriate mass production specifications. If Pakistan has this ability, it's an excellent detail.
plz read the below quoted post of Bilal
Pakistan Steel or Peoples Steel? as most specialty steels and alloys with defence applications are done there.

Edit: Yep, it’s People’s Steel Mill. Page 20, line 3


@Bilal Khan (Quwa)
It was Pakistan Steel which unfortunately is nonfunctional at the moment, but it is good read that Peoples Steel also have this capability.

I think this might one of the reasons It was one thought to transfer Pakistan Steel to Ministry of Defence or Defence Production, but in any case we do have technology to produce Steel required for the production of Hull of Submarine
hmm...I'm going to pull a @JamD and say I don't think it's what we hope it is.

It looks like a legend/key to describe different steel types. It seems PSMLtd only forges the steel in its Excel sheet, which is still pretty good but doesn't include HLES 80. However, I think with enough domestic incentives, like manufacturing a dozen submarines at home, they might try developing that capability.

1644222763823.png

(NOTE: Screenshot from one of the International producer of Submarine steel named "Indus Steel Arcelor Group" is attached for those members who might not aware that HLES is the steel required for fabrication of submarine hull)

HLES-80 is clearly mention in list of Peoples Steel Mills which was shared by Bilal but the excel which you share does not mention might be the reason is that currently no submarine is under construction in Pakistan & Peoples Steel is not producing it for any other International client.
 
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If we do forge HLES 80 steel, then it means our submarine contracts should involve an offset package. The OEMs should be sourcing our steel. If this isn't happening, then we have every right to call shenanigans on the submarine contract. We should also be bidding on overseas submarine projects. This is an excellent export opportunity.
 
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If we do forge HLES 80 steel, then it means our submarine contracts should involve an offset package. The OEMs should be sourcing our steel. If this isn't happening, then we have every right to call shenanigans on the submarine contract. We should also be bidding on overseas submarine projects. This is an excellent export opportunity.
There may be clauses to the TOT requiring that we buy material from Chinese sources. The excuse would be maintenence of guarantees of quality. Often such clauses which we never read but are intentionally put in contracts are what are the reason local industry flounders. That along with a couple of backhanders to the right pocket would ensure the contracts are carried through on the basis of necessity. This is the reason why we have gone backwards from building ships in the late 60s to early 70s to building nothing. The Peoples Steel mills was systematically destroyed and closed down before the forces took it over and rejuvenated it.
As a matter of principal I think we should not have any state owned industry barring the most essential. All industry should be in private hands to avoid ruin by the "Zinda Hai Bhutto", and "Pae khae Nawaz Shareef". We have been set back at least 30 years by one stupid decision of nationalization by that Idiot Bhutto. BUt then it will always be "Bhutto Zinda hai"
 
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There may be clauses to the TOT requiring that we buy material from Chinese sources. The excuse would be maintenence of guarantees of quality. Often such clauses which we never read but are intentionally put in contracts are what are the reason local industry flounders. That along with a couple of backhanders to the right pocket would ensure the contracts are carried through on the basis of necessity. This is the reason why we have gone backwards from building ships in the late 60s to early 70s to building nothing. The Peoples Steel mills was systematically destroyed and closed down before the forces took it over and rejuvenated it.
As a matter of principal I think we should not have any state owned industry barring the most essential. All industry should be in private hands to avoid ruin by the "Zinda Hai Bhutto", and "Pae khae Nawaz Shareef". We have been set back at least 30 years by one stupid decision of nationalization by that Idiot Bhutto. BUt then it will always be "Bhutto Zinda hai"
This is where original design programs -- like the Jinnah-class frigate -- become critical. It helps the PN understand ship design to a degree where it can source the inputs it wants to acquire. So, if Peoples' Steel Mills can forge ship-grade steel, then we'd be in a position to save on the Jinnah-class frigate. However, if the PN commits to domestic ship design and production projects, then we might have other Pakistani companies rise and compete for those bids. There's money to make here, so we could see the rise of another steelmaker, resulting in supply growth and more competitive pricing.

Unfortunately, 'Bhutto Zinda Hai' and 'Import Mian Sahibs' are always in the way. Their followers -- and those who ascribe to their thinking -- don't understand economics. In the end, they'll just ask why we're only able to afford 2 ships instead of 4 like the old days.
 
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If we do forge HLES 80 steel, then it means our submarine contracts should involve an offset package. The OEMs should be sourcing our steel. If this isn't happening, then we have every right to call shenanigans on the submarine contract. We should also be bidding on overseas submarine projects. This is an excellent export opportunity.
You’d be impressed how well Pakistan did with ToT sometimes, metallurgy is obviously not an easy task, but someone in the early 2000s was making very good decisions when it came to ToT at HIT, POF and now it seems even the PSM, despite the corruption issues that went with the 90B project.
The expertise received from Germany and France in this regard allowed Pakistan to make some stuff that one would never expect from a country with an industry so lacking (modern Fire control systems, and other tank related technology, France helped there. High quality gun barrels and small arms/ammo, Germany helped there).

India still has trouble making gun barrels and wasn’t able to develop a proper FCS system until the Arjun MK-1A finally came about. While Pakistan was making Gun barrels for Al-Khalids back in 2007 (not to mentioned larger barrels for M109s and even on the VT-4s now, the barrels are Pakistani, we replaced a Chinese component with a Pakistani one, I think that deserves a little more emphasis, that’s how much that ToT taught us) and made local upgrades to the original Al-Khalids FCS with French help, eventually leading to it making an entirely new 32 Bit FCS for the AK-1.

While Pakistan was making H&Ks firearms at a quality high enough that the actual factories in Germany were impressed, India was stuck with the INSAS. While Pakistan was making South Korean ammo for artillery that never once malfunctioned and designed its own DU penetator that performed better than the best Chinese round offered for service at the time, Indian soldiers were dying due to premature explosions caused by faulty ammo in artillery or were using Obsolete Soviet ammo for tanks (they still do).

Unfortunately they’re the ones improving now while we stand still, we’ve almost lost the lead we had.
 
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You’d be impressed how well Pakistan did with ToT sometimes, metallurgy is obviously not an easy task, but someone in the early 2000s was making very good decisions when it came to ToT at HIT, POF and now it seems even the PSM, despite the corruption issues that went with the 90B project.
The expertise received from Germany and France in this regard allowed Pakistan to make some stuff that one would never expect from a country with an industry so lacking (modern Fire control systems, and other tank related technology, France helped there. High quality gun barrels and small arms/ammo, Germany helped there).

India still has trouble making gun barrels and wasn’t able to develop a proper FCS system until the Arjun MK-1A finally came about. While Pakistan was making Gun barrels for Al-Khalids back in 2007 (not to mentioned larger barrels for M109s and even on the VT-4s now, the barrels are Pakistani, we replaced a Chinese component with a Pakistani one, I think that deserves a little more emphasis, that’s how much that ToT taught us) and made local upgrades to the original Al-Khalids FCS with French help, eventually leading to it making an entirely new 32 Bit FCS for the AK-1.

While Pakistan was making H&Ks firearms at a quality high enough that the actual factories in Germany were impressed, India was stuck with the INSAS. While Pakistan was making South Korean ammo for artillery that never once malfunctioned and designed its own DU penetator that performed better than the best Chinese round offered for service at the time, Indian soldiers were dying due to premature explosions caused by faulty ammo in artillery or were using Obsolete Soviet ammo for tanks (they still do).

Unfortunately they’re the ones improving now while we stand still, we’ve almost lost the lead we had.

Thank you for sharing this information, despite the gloomy ending, there are enough positives to fill a mountain.
Before we sign, seal and deliver our lack of this and that, let's please remember the 40 plus years of conflicts and wars on our doorsteps, we all know they played a major part in our predicaments.

It's just a simple reminder, and I'm very certain we'll be back on track, very soon.
 
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