PAKISTAN’S MIRAGES: SPECIALISTS ENDURING OUT OF NECESSITY

[CriticalThought]

How can you know or say that jf17 has performed well against these jets? Any source ?

Read all my posts on the thread, then perform some searching on the forum.

 

[HRK]

It has no hms/high offbore capability;

PL-5EII capabilities as stated by official source

The PL-5 have been continuously upgraded by Luoyang and the latest variant, the PL-5EII added a dual band, multi-element detector as well as a laser proximity fuse similar to the PL-9. According to Chinese export/import agency CATIC, the PL5E has an all-aspect capability with the seeker having a maximum off boresight angle of ±25° before launch, and ±40° after launch.

source: CCCME WEBSITE

second reference

According to Chinese export/import agency CATIC, the PL5E has an all-aspect capability with the seeker having a maximum off boresight angle of ±25° before launch, and ±40° after launch.

The PL5E's seeker performance is similar to that of the AIM-9M/L Sidewinder

source

I am confident, Mig-21 bison upgrades from IAF will more than likely take it down.

I am hopeful that before to make such generalise statement which almost equivalent to "wild conjecture" you will keep in mind the rule (quoted below) which you yourself is emphasising to be followed during dicussion

We need facts not wild conjecture.

Regards

 

[denel]

PL-5EII capabilities as stated by official source

second reference




I am hopeful that before to make such generalise statement which almost equivalent to "wild conjecture" you will keep in mind the rule (quoted below) which you yourself is emphasising to be followed during dicussion


Regards

Friend, all due respect, you are quoting chinese material - they always over exagerate their specifications including capabilities which are not present. Trust me on that, i have pulled apart many of their top line equipment and put them thru battery of tests.

For offbore, i think you and i have differing; I refer to AMMs like our V3 and onwards which have integrated hms since late 70's (1st gen) which is outside the +-25deg range you are describing e.g. +-40 deg and cued with helmet sight.

Until you have done this work - hopefully in Blk3, Bisons are fully capable of engaging blk1/blk2.

 

[khanasifm]

Aam is not exact science per AFM Syrian su had evaded aim-9x by using flares even though it has imaging infra red seeker and was eventually taken down by aim-120

 

[HRK]

Bisons are fully capable of engaging blk1/blk2.

plz read "official reports" about Bison .....

 

[CriticalThought]

Friend, all due respect, you are quoting chinese material - they always over exagerate their specifications including capabilities which are not present. Trust me on that, i have pulled apart many of their top line equipment and put them thru battery of tests.

For offbore, i think you and i have differing; I refer to AMMs like our V3 and onwards which have integrated hms since late 70's (1st gen) which is outside the +-25deg range you are describing e.g. +-40 deg and cued with helmet sight.

Until you have done this work - hopefully in Blk3, Bisons are fully capable of engaging blk1/blk2.

Mate you are not a fighter pilot and the more you speak the more you make a fool out of yourself. I mean were you waiting all this time for them to give you a title before you let the fool in you shine like the afternoon sun?

 

[HRK]

Mate you are not a fighter pilot and the more you speak the more you make a fool out of yourself. I mean were you waiting all this time for them to give you a title before you let the fool in you shine like the afternoon sun?

plz exercise your right of difference of opinion in respectful manner .... as far as I am aware denel have expertise in communication and radars so his opinions may or may not be right in other domains.

 

[CriticalThought]

plz exercise your right of difference of opinion in respectful manner .... as far as I am aware denel have expertise in communication and radars so his opinions may or may not be right in other domains.

The Thunder project also has a respect that deserves due consideration. On my part, rather than being disrespectful, I am merely helping him not make a laughing stock of himself. Forget background in radar etc, anyone with knowledge and insight will forever disregard him if he makes such comments.

Let's look at this intellectually. If an F-16 runs out of AIM-9X, it is only left with AMRAAMs, and the Viper is 5 km away from an Indian Bison. Will the bison simply take it out with ease as Mr Denel suggests? Heck why stop at the Viper. Will the bison take out a Rafale that's run out of HOBS missiles? I say this: his remarks are informed by hate and malice and seek to portray the Thunder in a derogatory light. I don't know how much self-respect people have around here, but I WILL NOT engage in self-flaggalatory respect for foreign 'experts' who treat Pakistan worse than a stray dog on the street.

 

[HRK]

I say this: his remarks are informed by hate and malice and seek to portray the Thunder in a derogatory light.

try rather to kill the messenger kill the message....

 

[araz]

Mate you are not a fighter pilot and the more you speak the more you make a fool out of yourself. I mean were you waiting all this time for them to give you a title before you let the fool in you shine like the afternoon sun?

Please counter an argument with an argument or facts. Personal insults/comments puts your own credibility online and depicts you in a bad light. @denel has merit in his discussion and the Chinese products have previously not been upto the mark. This situation is dynamic and their QC still needs to be improved. Certainly there has been great improvements but still a fair way to go.
A

The Thunder project also has a respect that deserves due consideration. On my part, rather than being disrespectful, I am merely helping him not make a laughing stock of himself. Forget background in radar etc, anyone with knowledge and insight will forever disregard him if he makes such comments.

Let's look at this intellectually. If an F-16 runs out of AIM-9X, it is only left with AMRAAMs, and the Viper is 5 km away from an Indian Bison. Will the bison simply take it out with ease as Mr Denel suggests? Heck why stop at the Viper. Will the bison take out a Rafale that's run out of HOBS missiles? I say this: his remarks are informed by hate and malice and seek to portray the Thunder in a derogatory light. I don't know how much self-respect people have around here, but I WILL NOT engage in self-flaggalatory respect for foreign 'experts' who treat Pakistan worse than a stray dog on the street.

@Critical Thought.
Are you suggesting that the 16 or any other fighter will get into a situation where it engages with a 9x before it utilizes the AMRAAM? Can you explain this notion. The situation @HRK posted might have employed a multiple platform scenario. Generally my understanding is you engage at BVR before utilizing HOBSin a GREAT majority if not ALL situations. So can you clarify the setting please.

 

[CriticalThought]

Please counter an argument with an argument or facts. Personal insults/comments puts your own credibility online and depicts you in a bad light. @denel has merit in his discussion and the Chinese products have previously not been upto the mark. This situation is dynamic and their QC still needs to be improved. Certainly there has been great improvements but still a fair way to go.
A


@Critical Thought.
Are you suggesting that the 16 or any other fighter will get into a situation where it engages with a 9x before it utilizes the AMRAAM? Can you explain this notion. The situation @HRK posted might have employed a multiple platform scenario. Generally my understanding is you engage at BVR before utilizing HOBSin a GREAT majority if not ALL situations. So can you clarify the setting please.

Sure. The Bison is an interceptor with Max speed of Mach 2 but limited endurance. Upon detection of the Viper, Indian command vectors in their bison interceptors at max speed while jamming the Viper's radar so it is caught off guard. Another case is a bison that is able to take off opportunistically from an alternate runway while the Viper conducts a bombing run on the main airbase. Or the mountains in the North where the bison is able to sneak up on the viper using terrain for hiding.

 

[syed_yusuf]

Sure. The Bison is an interceptor with Max speed of Mach 2 but limited endurance. Upon detection of the Viper, Indian command vectors in their bison interceptors at max speed while jamming the Viper's radar so it is caught off guard. Another case is a bison that is able to take off opportunistically from an alternate runway while the Viper conducts a bombing run on the main airbase. Or the mountains in the North where the bison is able to sneak up on the viper using terrain for hiding.

This situation could happen to any fighter
Now reverse the sirusituawith su30 andf-7pg

Also there will always be an escort when attaching enemy territory

The situation u mention will never happen if there are aewcs deployed or there are top cover provided for air defence escort

 

[Chak Bamu]

Mate you are not a fighter pilot and the more you speak the more you make a fool out of yourself. I mean were you waiting all this time for them to give you a title before you let the fool in you shine like the afternoon sun?

That is a very deplorable post. Anonymity on a forum is not a license to abuse. @denel is well-respected on this forum. He has knowledge, experience, & necessary humility required to make a great poster. All his points have merit if one considers them dispassionately. Abusing him does not make the validity of his observations go away. If you do not like what he has to say about JF-17 then refute him with facts, not emotion.

Give respect to receive respect, & differ in a mature manner.

 

[CriticalThought]

This situation could happen to any fighter
Now reverse the sirusituawith su30 andf-7pg

Sure, let's reverse the situation. What of it?

Also there will always be an escort when attaching enemy territory

The escort won't really change anything if multiple interceptors come at you.

The situation u mention will never happen if there are aewcs deployed or there are top cover provided for air defence escort

There will be no AEWACS deep inside enemy territory. And you think the top cover will not be engaged?

I have written just a few ways it can happen - there are a million and one ways in which it can happen.

But you are failing to grasp the basic premise. No matter how it happens, if and when it happens, it shows the ridiculousness of the notion presented by @denel.

That is a very deplorable post. Anonymity on a forum is not a license to abuse. @denel is well-respected on this forum. He has knowledge, experience, & necessary humility required to make a great poster. All his points have merit if one considers them dispassionately. Abusing him does not make the validity of his observations go away. If you do not like what he has to say about JF-17 then refute him with facts, not emotion.

Give respect to receive respect, & differ in a mature manner.

You can only counter facts with facts. Malice needs something else.

Anyway, the only deplorable thing I see is Pakistaniat. Search for it under my name and apply it here.

Hey @Knuckles can I invite your attention to this thread? If you don't mind, could you take a look at the comments of @denel in the past few pages, then my reply and the ensuing discussion? I know your time is invaluable, but if you could comment I would be infinitely grateful. Many thanks in advance.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

I am fine as long as we keep our 3 times bigger enemy on hold for 1 week or give enough resistance for 10 days, which is enough Buy time to launch all nuclear bombs all in one go.
We should increase few more SAM batteries.