pakistan's and their reluctance to evolve with western culture.

[libertycall]

I think it is more likely related to criminal activity. If there are a bunch of break-ins and a common denominator is they are doing it because they are hooked on crack cocaine...then the punishment for possessing crack cocaine will go up. I'm sure there are far worse drugs but since they are not showing up tied to criminal behavior they don't get attention.

I'm sure many countries don't have any OxyContin abuse laws..it's only because it probably isn't known and hasn't been linked with criminal activity.

There is no direct causal link between being hooked on crack cocaine and break-ins. There is a link between being unable to afford crack cocaine and engaging in a break-in to steal valuables to buy crack cocaine.

On the other hand there is a link between alcohol and violence--including sexual violence. However, alcohol is legal and crack cocaine is illegal.

Now it could be argued that this is because crack cocaine has more serious health consequences, but if that's the case why are drugs with far less serious health consequences (for instance marijuana) illegal?

"Among spouse victims of violence who were able to describe substance use by the offender, 3 out of 4 incidents were reported to have involved an offender who had been drinking.

Percent of spouse violence victimizations involving substance use:

Alcohol only 65%
Drugs only 5%
Both alcohol and drugs 11
Either alcohol or drugs <1
Neither alcohol nor drugs 19

Based on victim reports, on average each year about 183,000 rapes and sexual assaults involve alcohol use by the offender, as do just over 197,000 robberies, about 661,000 aggravated assaults, and nearly 1.7 million simple assaults.

Combined use of drugs and alcohol accounted for 18% of the alcohol- involved rapes and sexual assaults, 36% of the alcohol-involved robberies, 24% of the aggravated assaults in which the offender was drinking, and 15% of the simple assaults involving a drinking offender."

Bureau of Justice Statistics - Alcohol and Violent Crime in the U.S.: [insert page title]

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

There is no direct causal link between being hooked on crack cocaine and break-ins. There is a link between being unable to afford crack cocaine and engaging in a break-in to steal valuables to buy crack cocaine.

LOL that's what I meant. I didn't mean people get high and suddenly have an urge to break into houses. When lots of people start doing crimes due to wanting money for drug "X" that usually causes drug "X" to have more scrutiny and higher possession penalties.

And alcohol was prohibited here in the US for pretty much the reasons you mentioned...but was later rescinded.

 

[libertycall]

LOL that's what I meant. I didn't mean people get high and suddenly have an urge to break into houses. When lots of people start doing crimes due to wanting money for drug "X" that usually causes drug "X" to have more scrutiny and higher possession penalties.

And alcohol was prohibited here in the US for pretty much the reasons you mentioned...but was later rescinded.

Oh I see. I'm referring to how drugs become criminalized in the first place.

The history of alcohol in the USA however illustrates a peculiar trend. Despite the fact that Alcohol has been linked with wholesale examples of societal destruction e.g. witness the native Americans, Australians, or even paintings of 19th century England it has very rarely been criminalized.

Contrary to popular belief, prohibition was a success. There's some evidence that the reason alcohol businesses were decriminalized was because Roosevelt wanted to boost business during the Great Depression.

"Second, alcohol consumption declined dramatically during Prohibition. Cirrhosis death rates for men were 29.5 per 100,000 in 1911 and 10.7 in 1929. Admissions to state mental hospitals for alcoholic psychosis declined from 10.1 per 100,000 in 1919 to 4.7 in 1928.

Arrests for public drunkennness and disorderly conduct declined 50 percent between 1916 and 1922. For the population as a whole, the best estimates are that consumption of alcohol declined by 30 percent to 50 percent.

Third, violent crime did not increase dramatically during Prohibition. Homicide rates rose dramatically from 1900 to 1910 but remained roughly constant during Prohibition's 14 year rule. Organized crime may have become more visible and lurid during Prohibition, but it existed before and after.

Fourth, following the repeal of Prohibition, alcohol consumption increased. Today, alcohol is estimated to be the cause of more than 23,000 motor vehicle deaths and is implicated in more than half of the nation's 20,000 homicides. In contrast, drugs have not yet been persuasively linked to highway fatalities and are believed to account for 10 percent to 20 percent of homicides.

Prohibition did not end alcohol use. What is remarkable, however, is that a relatively narrow political movement, relying on a relatively weak set of statutes, succeeded in reducing, by one-third, the consumption of a drug that had wide historical and popular sanction."

Actually, Prohibition Was a Success - NYTimes.com

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

 

[Zarvan]

You have gotten one of the oldest, finest, most evolved cultures in human history, yet for some reason way beyond my understanding you wish to "evolve" with the "Western culture", to do what?

Well to get unwanted pregnancies STDs depression and bad death because of alcohol abuse or drug overdose in short welcome to liberal lifestyle

 

[General General]

To modernise, you don't have to Westernise. You can evolve your thinking with the passage of time without copying or importing another alien culture. Most big cities in the world look depressingly similar; high-rise buildings with people rushing around in suits. It can be seen in any busy city from New York to Tokyo.
Evolving with times in your own way, placed in your own part of the world is the most natural way to progress. Changing to mimic another culture or, the opposite; staying stationary in time, resisting progress are both un-natural and would result in cultural segmentations within a society.
P.S. For those who are denouncing the "liberal" or "Western" way of life, every culture has its drawbacks as well as positives. I suggest dismounting from your high horses.

 

[nvKyleBrown]

There are some kooky ideas in Pakistan about what Valentine's Day is, how it is celebrated, etc.

1) It is not a public or official holiday of any kind.
2) No one is in any way required to do anything. I would say most don't do anything.
3) Often, kids in school will "exchange Valentine's". As a practical matter, what this means is you get small cheap cards for everyone in the class, and during part of the day, pass them around to everyone. There is usually some kind of craft project where kids will make a decorated box or bag to receive Valentine's cards from their peers. The rule usually is that you give one card to each peer, regardless of gender - this is not a new "gay" thing, it has always been that way. In other words, not all that romantic at all. It's an excuse for a craft day, for the little kids. If you have religious objections, you do not have to participate (I knew at least one girl when I was that age that did not participate - Jehovah's Witness, not Muslim).
4) For older kids, it disappears as a school event, mostly. Some schools will do a fund raiser type thing, where for a couple dollars you can send someone a valentine, maybe with some candy or balloons, sometimes even a "singing telegram". Probably most of those are again, not romantic, they are jokes on friends, or expressions of kindness (between the girls particularly).
5) Some adults exchange gifts if they are dating or married. I've never done it, and none of my married friends have wives that expect/demand it (women drive the holiday more than men).
6) It is not a day to go introduce yourself to someone new, particularly. It is not a day to get a new lover, or anything like that - more celebration of existing love. It is Saint Valentine's day, after all, the guy was a Christian saint, not supposed to be being immoral over a saint's day. But, you should love your wife, so say something at least one day a year. Mostly women are big on it, men sort of dread it due to the expectations. Most couples operate on a more daily expression of love, rather than saving it for "special occasions", but to each their own way.
7) At my work, they did a fund raiser, again, buy a card/candy and have it sent to a fellow employee (just a very small bit). Most people did not participate, those who did were split between the jokers and the kindly, with a couple of married couples thrown in for good measure.
8) Harassing women in the park, as one poster suggested happens on Valentine's day would be pretty horrific. It would be bad anytime, but on a supposedly romantic day, it is in particularly bad taste.
9) Many other countries have similar "romantic" gift giving days - for example, Korea: Korean Special Romantic Days - Connect Korea | Connect Korea


I would have been unaware of it entirely if not for seeing the cards at work. I don't know how you would "ban" such a holiday

Lastly, we do have Monday off in the US - for President's Day, which happens to coincide closely with Valentine's Day. President's Day gets moved to the nearest Monday to the "actual" day, and this year it winds up being the 15th.

 

[Vapnope]

you are contradicting yourself. a liberal culture means people have the 'liberty' or freedom to do as they want, that is, live their life as they deem fit. which means, that while one household could be very conservative, and their next door neighbors could be ultra modern, but neither should lecture the other on what to do/what not to.
if you decide people can not celebrate valentine's day if they want to, then you are automatically not a liberal.

Did i say i want to ban Valentine day? I only objected to our fetish with anything that West does. Of course they are not the best of the civilization why can't we have our own? Do i have to wear a suit to look civilized? Or if i miss my coffee in morning i wont be called a liberal?

 

[LeGenD]

so it means we should not change part of our culture which are decade behind the 21 century like aurat ka ghar kay bahi kya kam hay(women should not work outside her home mentality) or transgender ko koi nuakri na do(transgenders should not be employed) or apni zat sau bahir shadi nahi karni(marriage out of ones cast) or things like cousin marriages and lots of cultural things like these need to go if we want to progress.

Contrary to the liberal propaganda, these are not 21st century norms.

 

[Dalit]

Out of 200m only Pakistanis in the cities had the chance to get a feel of westernasisation & they love it !! rest of them if they get the chance they will fail all diaper Pakistanis cum confused islamists unfortunately!! There is a off license wine shop (booze shop) every 2-3 kilometer now !

LOL you extracting all that info from your magic crystal ball? Stop generalizing. You cannot enforce your liberal thoughts and ideas onto others. Live the way you want to, but stop fooling yourself that others also must follow your "idealistic" norms and values.

You don't even know the meaning of the word Westernization. You think Westernization solely equates to sucking booze, throwing a party and watching p0rn? Think again buddy. Some people in Eastern cultures narrow their definition of Westernization to a liquor sucking fest. Hate to break the bubble. Why don't you for once in your life try to identify some positives of the Western culture before handing out lectures about how fun it is to have Western style liquor stores around every corner in the country.

You wannabe liberals are super eager to adopt purportedly Western ideas such as liquor sucking and other "fun" bits into your society. How about transforming the very same eagerness into incorporating the Western idea of developing the education system in your country? How about improving the healthcare system according to any Western model and crops to feed the millions? Don't tell me Mullahs are somehow an obstacle because the biggest problem are the masses themselves. The irony is that self proclaimed liberals don't even know what liberalism stands for. It is just a fashion statement to be a liberal in these parts of the world as long as it suits our thoughts and narrative.

You sound like those democracy loving Pakistani politicians who yell the word like a prayer, yet grossly fail to understand and implement the spirit of it.

There are some kooky ideas in Pakistan about what Valentine's Day is, how it is celebrated, etc.

1) It is not a public or official holiday of any kind.
2) No one is in any way required to do anything. I would say most don't do anything.
3) Often, kids in school will "exchange Valentine's". As a practical matter, what this means is you get small cheap cards for everyone in the class, and during part of the day, pass them around to everyone. There is usually some kind of craft project where kids will make a decorated box or bag to receive Valentine's cards from their peers. The rule usually is that you give one card to each peer, regardless of gender - this is not a new "gay" thing, it has always been that way. In other words, not all that romantic at all. It's an excuse for a craft day, for the little kids. If you have religious objections, you do not have to participate (I knew at least one girl when I was that age that did not participate - Jehovah's Witness, not Muslim).
4) For older kids, it disappears as a school event, mostly. Some schools will do a fund raiser type thing, where for a couple dollars you can send someone a valentine, maybe with some candy or balloons, sometimes even a "singing telegram". Probably most of those are again, not romantic, they are jokes on friends, or expressions of kindness (between the girls particularly).
5) Some adults exchange gifts if they are dating or married. I've never done it, and none of my married friends have wives that expect/demand it (women drive the holiday more than men).
6) It is not a day to go introduce yourself to someone new, particularly. It is not a day to get a new lover, or anything like that - more celebration of existing love. It is Saint Valentine's day, after all, the guy was a Christian saint, not supposed to be being immoral over a saint's day. But, you should love your wife, so say something at least one day a year. Mostly women are big on it, men sort of dread it due to the expectations. Most couples operate on a more daily expression of love, rather than saving it for "special occasions", but to each their own way.
7) At my work, they did a fund raiser, again, buy a card/candy and have it sent to a fellow employee (just a very small bit). Most people did not participate, those who did were split between the jokers and the kindly, with a couple of married couples thrown in for good measure.
8) Harassing women in the park, as one poster suggested happens on Valentine's day would be pretty horrific. It would be bad anytime, but on a supposedly romantic day, it is in particularly bad taste.
9) Many other countries have similar "romantic" gift giving days - for example, Korea: Korean Special Romantic Days - Connect Korea | Connect Korea


I would have been unaware of it entirely if not for seeing the cards at work. I don't know how you would "ban" such a holiday

Lastly, we do have Monday off in the US - for President's Day, which happens to coincide closely with Valentine's Day. President's Day gets moved to the nearest Monday to the "actual" day, and this year it winds up being the 15th.

Valentine's Day like Father's or Mother's Day are Western festivities. It is part of the Western culture. These inventions don't fit nor represent the Eastern values. That is a reality.

People who feel the need to celebrate such a festivity should in my opinion be allowed to do so. Although, imposing it nationwide or banning it completely isn't the solution. It is an individual choice as long as other people aren't confronted with it.

 

[pak-marine]

LOL you extracting all that info from your magic crystal ball? Stop generalizing. You cannot enforce your liberal thoughts and ideas onto others. Live the way you want to, but stop fooling yourself that others also must follow your "idealistic" norms and values.


Youdon't even know the meaning of the word Westernization. You think Westernization solely equates to sucking booze, throwing a party and watching p0rn? Think again buddy. Some people in Eastern cultures narrow their definition of Westernization to a liquor sucking fest. Hate to break the bubble. Why don't you for once in your life try to identify some positives of the Western culture before handing out lectures about how fun it is to have Western style liquor stores around every corner in the country.

You wannabe liberals are super eager to adopt purportedly Western ideas such as liquor sucking and other "fun" bits into your society. How about transforming the very same eagerness into incorporating the Western idea of developing the education system in your country? How about improving the healthcare system according to any Western model and crops to feed the millions? Don't tell me Mullahs are somehow an obstacle because the biggest problem are the masses themselves. The irony is that self proclaimed liberals don't even know what liberalism stands for. It is just a fashion statement to be a liberal in these parts of the world as long as it suits our thoughts and narrative.

You sound like those democracy loving Pakistani politicians who yell the word like a prayer, yet grossly fail to understand and implement the spirit of it.

.God all that emotional diarrhea ! Wow ... LOL ... only if you have initially comprehended would have saved you all that time you wasted writing ^ piece anyhow i will give it one last try hopefully u wont loose it again & probably try to get it this time " what i said is my opinion based on what i have seen on streets & media .. at no point i said people should follow this or that .. get it !?

You are lecturing to not generalise ... i have highlighted in blue bold just to show who is generalising here.

by the way on another note just curious to know if you are a PTI supporter ?? as you sound like one

 

[Salman Arif]

this thread is made for continuation of discussion from Pakistan bans Valentine's Day celebrations in Islamabad?
my last post in that thread was
believe me i would be more then happy to see my people to become more like them in every field and behavior.but let me remind you those thing which were taboos few years ago are norms of today like voting rights of women racial discrimination and slavery. islam allow you to own slave but then why every Islamic country has abolished it.we were allowed to own slave with few condition met then why we abandon that practice let me tell you why because it was out dated practice with no place in today's society.same things happen with racial laws and women rights.world is changing and we need to change with it.i am not saying that we should blindly follow western or any other culture.but we should give them a chance to merge with ours to make a more tolerating and flexible Pakistan because if we don't world will move forward an we will be left behind and alone.look at turkey uae Malaysia they didn't lost their culture but simply merged it with international one and they are far more accepted then we are.

Source: Pakistan bans Valentine's Day celebrations in Islamabad? | Page 6
@Ammara Chaudhry

Iqbal said, "Europe ki ghulami pe razamand hoa too..... Mujh ko to gila tujh se hae! Europe se Nahein!"

 

[waleed3601]

Islam offers such freedom as well as long as the rules and regulations set by the Creator are not broken, if one wants to break such laws, they can if they want to but they would have to deviate away from Islam to do it, it is a very big misconception that Islam oppresses humanity and such misconception is fueled through sheer ignorance and lack of knowledge, let me give you a series of examples to reinforce my point.

Again my point holds, how can there be freedom where rules and regulations apply?
I agree it is a misconception that Islam oppresses humanity because Muhammad (PBUH) only wanted good for the world, and for the people; but you can not deny that Muslims are the worst when it comes to exploitation because we use our religion to justify number of terrible acts.

Lack of knowledge and ignorance might lead some to believe that the concept of hijab oppresses women or is only meant for them and not for men as well but with an objective reasoning and comparing western lifestyle with Islam, one would realize as long as he is not biased that it is the other way around, in the western culture women are used as tools in marketing businesses, in fashion, in prostitution, in pornography and mega corporations etc, women in social environments are indirectly pressured to loose morality so that they can be part of the system, the very concept of Hijab threatens such systems and uplifts women as individualists.

They are not pressured to loose morality just as I can say Arab women aren't pressured to become plastic polythene bags by wearing a hijab. See what I'm saying? Look at it from both ways then think. Immorality exists everywhere, but for us wearing a skirt is immorality but for them it's a completely normal thing. For them immorality is having more than one wife but for us it's completely normal thing.

Some after reading those 6 criteria's might use the first point as an excuse to raise the issue of inequality and oppression, so to answer them in Islam (keep in mind every thing that I am stating here is part of the Sharia and Khilafah) the reason why the awrah of men (exposing of the chest and hair etc) compared to women has been lowered is because the complete financial burden falls to men, women are not required to work but they can if they want to (as long as the work both men and women do is legal/Halal), so because the complete financial burden falls to men and some are most likely involved in heavy labor or construction work or some go to war etc a leniency has been given to them, In Islam both men and women are equal but they are not one and the same, women are emotionally, physically and physiologically different from men, In certain situations men exceed women and in other women exceed men so advantage has been given to women where men exceed and to men where women exceed, such is not practiced in western culture and laws, women and men are not safeguarded when they are at a disadvantage which gives rise to many problems like for example the 50% divorce rate in the US and the major cause for this being adultery and cheating on your spouse, pre-marital relationships and 50%-50% break away of property at the time of divorce makes the very concept of marriage obsolete, family life completely destroyed as senior citizens and old parents are thrown away in old homes etc, it is only through one's own inability to acquire knowledge and being ignorant about Islam (no offense intended) can lead to such misconceptions while there are profound answers to such problems in Islam given by the Creator, we don't need to follow or adopt western culture, we just need to learn who we are.

Valentine's day encourages pre-marital relationship which in turn causes a lot of problems later at marriage and destroys families and is apparently evident in western lifestyles and culture, you are welcome to follow them if you like but you would have to deviate away from the morality of Islam to do it.

Yes I get your reasoning on the different codes for men and women, but Western culture is not all US. American society is an absolute disaster I agree, but look at Europe, they are what is truly 'western culture' and they live so peacefully. In germany there was hardly ever any sexual harassment until the refugees came and started harassing their local women in large numbers.
Regarding your last point, again, morality is subjective and people should be allowed the freedom to do what they want. Why do people always find it necessary to lecture others about their un-Islamic ways? Live your life as a good Muslim and benefit yourself, why irritate others? If someone wants to do something and it is not illegal, let them do it. That is my point. People should have freedom to do whatever they want.

Did i say i want to ban Valentine day? I only objected to our fetish with anything that West does. Of course they are not the best of the civilization why can't we have our own? Do i have to wear a suit to look civilized? Or if i miss my coffee in morning i wont be called a liberal?

You were questioning other people's reason to celebrate it. A liberal would not do that because he/she understands that everyone has his/her own way of living of life and we should let them do what they want to.
The thing is, we lost our culture and civilization when the British attacked us. After independence we worked very hard to again develop our own culture and identity, but Zia ul Haq destroyed all of that and turned us into what we are today. People more concerned about Valentine's day than rpae, honour killing, illiteracy and poverty.
And no you don't have to wear a suit to look civilized. And I don't even drink coffee (just hate the taste). Let me repeat what I've always been saying. A liberal's motto is not forcing others to accept the Western way of life rather a simple few words, 'Jeeyo aur jeene do'.

 

[Dalit]

.God all that emotional diarrhea ! Wow ... LOL ... only if you have initially comprehended would have saved you all that time you wasted writing ^ piece anyhow i will give it one last try hopefully u wont loose it again & probably try to get it this time " what i said is my opinion based on what i have seen on streets & media .. at no point i said people should follow this or that .. get it !?

You are lecturing to not generalise ... i have highlighted in blue bold just to show who is generalising here.

by the way on another note just curious to know if you are a PTI supporter ?? as you sound like one

Emotional my rear. Who is spewing garbage here? Calling 200 million folks liquor suckers and what not. You do that on the basis of viewing people on streets and watching the media... Keep your gross generalization to yourself. How do you expect to be taken seriously?

What the hell? What does my political preference have anything to do with my opinion regarding liberalism? You are so out of touch to even know that many liberals actually are part of PTI. Get your facts right dude and stop generalizing for goodness sake.

Again my point holds, how can there be freedom where rules and regulations apply?
I agree it is a misconception that Islam oppresses humanity because Muhammad (PBUH) only wanted good for the world, and for the people; but you can not deny that Muslims are the worst when it comes to exploitation because we use our religion to justify number of terrible acts.


They are not pressured to loose morality just as I can say Arab women aren't pressured to become plastic polythene bags by wearing a hijab. See what I'm saying? Look at it from both ways then think. Immorality exists everywhere, but for us wearing a skirt is immorality but for them it's a completely normal thing. For them immorality is having more than one wife but for us it's completely normal thing.


Yes I get your reasoning on the different codes for men and women, but Western culture is not all US. American society is an absolute disaster I agree, but look at Europe, they are what is truly 'western culture' and they live so peacefully. In germany there was hardly ever any sexual harassment until the refugees came and started harassing their local women in large numbers.
Regarding your last point, again, morality is subjective and people should be allowed the freedom to do what they want. Why do people always find it necessary to lecture others about their un-Islamic ways? Live your life as a good Muslim and benefit yourself, why irritate others? If someone wants to do something and it is not illegal, let them do it. That is my point. People should have freedom to do whatever they want.


You were questioning other people's reason to celebrate it. A liberal would not do that because he/she understands that everyone has his/her own way of living of life and we should let them do what they want to.
The thing is, we lost our culture and civilization when the British attacked us. After independence we worked very hard to again develop our own culture and identity, but Zia ul Haq destroyed all of that and turned us into what we are today. People more concerned about Valentine's day than rpae, honour killing, illiteracy and poverty.
And no you don't have to wear a suit to look civilized. And I don't even drink coffee (just hate the taste). Let me repeat what I've always been saying. A liberal's motto is not forcing others to accept the Western way of life rather a simple few words, 'Jeeyo aur jeene do'.

This applies the other way too. Liberals tend to propagate their way of life to others. No doubt about it. You don't have to look very far. Just have a look at this thread and how some wannabe liberals are trying to impose their mindset onto others by grossly over generalizing.

In fact, after 9/11 we have seen how the Western civilization has tried to occupy and impose their values onto others. When the West says that it is at war with Islam they mean to say that they are here to destroy Eastern/Islamic norms and values to replace them with their own way of life. You know this too. We have seen how this has backfired in Iraq and elsewhere. Instead of "liberating", these countries are today rife with extremism. Conclusion is that one cannot impose nor dictate liberalism or any other form of ideology. Regions and countries always have their own set of norms and values depending on history, culture etc. Also, there are no superior forms of cultures and ideologies. All ideologies and cultures have their pros and cons. There is a lack of acceptance and tolerance from both sides and that is the real problem here.

 

[waleed3601]

This applies the other way too. Liberals tend to propagate their way of life to others. No doubt about it. You don't have to look very far. Just have a look at this thread and how some wannabe liberals are trying to impose their mindset onto others by grossly over generalizing.

In fact, after 9/11 we have seen how the Western civilization has tried to occupy and impose their values onto others. When the West says that it is at war with Islam they mean to say that they are here to destroy Eastern/Islamic norms and values to replace them with their own way of life. You know this too. We have seen how this has backfired in Iraq and elsewhere. Instead of "liberating", these countries are today rife with extremism. Conclusion is that one cannot impose nor dictate liberalism or any other form of ideology. Regions and countries always have their own set of norms and values depending on history, culture etc. Also, there are no superior forms of cultures and ideologies. All ideologies and cultures have their pros and cons. There is a lack of acceptance and tolerance from both sides and that is the real problem here

The only reason liberals are forced to comment in such a way I believe is because of the unrelenting holier than thou attitude shown by the conservatives who leave no stone unturned in accusing liberals of being foreign paid agents and kaafirs and traitors and whatnot. I also maintain that liberals trying to impose their western bias on others is also incorrect, and instead of showing their frustration by denouncing their own culture they should make the conservatives see reason and rationale.
And what you say is right, every region has it's own culture and values, but with the massive globalisation that has taken place in the last few decades you can't expect all people within the same country to have the same way of life/lifestyle. It's just not possible.