Pakistanis of Greeks and Macedonians Descent

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

So how do you know what "our records" say if they have been destroyed? From historical sources and I think Greek sources as well we understand that in the Battle of Hydapses near Multan and Jhelum river Alexander was struck with a arrow from an archer. The arrow pierced through his chest plate, it did not kill him but wounded him and he was withdrawn from the battle field and sometime later (maybe month+) he died from a fever as he tried to recover from the wound.



You are definitely @Norwegian

Does that make him the winner of the battle? Even the records of these greeks and westerners are disputed. So I personally do not trust them.

 

[A1Kaid]

Does that make him the winner of the battle? Even the records of these greeks and westerners are disputed. So I personally do not trust them.

What records are you citing in defense and support of your argument? That is the question you have not answered. What source? Plutarch's account is the generally accepted version of events. The Macedonians defeated Porus but their victory cost them heavily, they could not advance further and the army didn't want to, morale was low and the army tired and exhausted and had taken serious losses, so they retreated back to Macedonia. Some of the soldiers likely stayed and lived amongst the locals as returning was too dangerous or too time consuming.

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

What records are you citing in defense and support of your argument? That is the question you have not answered. What source? Plutarch's account is the generally accepted version of events. The Macedonians defeated Porus but their victory cost them heavily, they could not advance further and the army didn't want to, morale was low and the army tired and exhausted and had taken serious losses, so they retreated back to Macedonia. Some of the soldiers likely stayed and lived amongst the locals as returning was too dangerous or too time consuming.

You just said, Alexander was hit with an arrow and was withdrawn the battle field. The King Purshottam(Porus) lived. How is this possible that Alexander won?

 

[A1Kaid]

You just said, Alexander was hit with an arrow and was withdrawn the battle field. The King Purshottam(Porus) lived. How is this possible that Alexander won?

That doesn't mean his army lost the battle. Your logic is, because Alexander was wounded and withdrawn from the battle = Macedonian defeat in Battle of Hydapses?

According to Plutarch, King Porus was arrested after the battle and his army defeated. If King Porus had won as you suggest why would he be arrested? King Porus lived because he was allowed to, Alexander allowed him to govern his former Kingdom as a reward of being one of the fiercest armies he ever fought. Alexander respected King Porus, he said Porus would be treated "like a King" after he was arrested.

Alexander won the Battle of Hydapses, but lets just say it cost him his life and the ultimate end of his military campaign, in that sense you could view it as a defeat, but it was NOT a military defeat!

Most historians agree that Porus was four cubits and a span99 high, and that the size and majesty of his body made his elephant seem as fitting a mount for him as a horse for the horseman. And yet his elephant was of the largest size; 13 and it showed remarkable intelligence and solicitude for the king, bravely defending him and beating back his assailants while he was still in full vigour, and when it perceived that its master was worn out with a multitude of missiles and wounds, fearing he should fall off, it knelt softly on the ground, and with its proboscis p399gently took each spear and drew it out of his body. 14 Porus was taken prisoner, and when Alexander asked him how he would be treated, said: "Like a king"; and to another question from Alexander whether he had anything else to say, replied: 15 "All things are included in my 'like a king.' " Accordingly, Alexander not only permitted him to govern his former kingdom, giving him the title of satrap, but also added to it the territory of the independent peoples whom he subdued, in which there are said to have been fifteen nations, five thousand cities of considerable size, and a great multitude of villages. 16 He subdued other territory also thrice as large as this and appointed Philip, one of his companions, satrap over it.

-Plutarch , Life of Alexander

Plutarch • Life of Alexander (Part 5 of 7)

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

That doesn't mean his army lost the battle. Your logic is, because Alexander was wounded and withdrawn from the battle = Macedonian defeat in Battle of Hydapses?

According to Plutarch, King Porus was arrested after the battle and his army defeated. If King Porus had won as you suggest why would he be arrested? King Porus lived because he was allowed to, Alexander allowed him to govern his former Kingdom as a reward of being one of the fiercest armies he ever fought. Alexander respected King Porus, he said Porus would be treated "like a King" after he was arrested.

Alexander won the Battle of Hydapses, but lets just say it cost him his life and the ultimate end of his military campaign, in that sense you could view it as a defeat, but it was NOT a military defeat!

Porus was arrested? Where did any one say that? Two times in the battle, Alexander was in the mercy of Porus according to the Greek and Roman historian only and Porus was arrested? Come on!

They are just glorifying their king Alexander. Had ad they have written against Alexander, they would be subjected to execution.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Haq's Musings: Kalash Girls of Pakistan

Many Pakistanis of Chitral, Hunza, Gilgit and Nagir have long claimed descent from the Greek and the Macedonian invaders who were led into India by Alexander in 327 B.C. Among them are the Kalash people who live in Chitral, Pakistan.

Kalash Genes:


Last year, a genetic study reported in The New York Times found that the Kalash people's DNA seems to indicate that they had an infusion of European blood during a "mixing event" at roughly the time of Alexander's conquests in 4th century B.C. This isolated people are thus most likely the direct descendants of the ancient Greek-Macedonian armies who came to this region 2,300 years ago.

The study was published in February 2014 in the journal Science by a team led by Simon Myers of Oxford University, Garrett Hellenthal of University College London and Daniel Falush of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany.

A 2013 Harvard study published in the American Journal of Human Genetics has found that vast majority of Indians today have descended from a mixture of two genetically divergent populations--Ancestral North Indians (ANIs) who migrated from Central Asia, the Middle East, the Caucasus, and Europe, and Ancestral South Indians (ASI), who are not closely related to groups outside the subcontinent.

Pakistan is a racially diverse country with a range of of skin colors and facial features. There are people of European descent in its northern areas like the Kalash along with the Sheedi or Makrani people of African descent in parts of the south along the Arabian Sea coastal line.

Sheedis of Sindh and Balochistan:

Sheedis are thought to be the descendants of African slaves brought to the shores of Pakistan at the height of the international slave trade that started in the 7th century and continued into the 18th century.

Also known as Siddis in other parts of South Asia, they are believed to have arrived in India in 628 AD at the Bharuch port. Several others followed with the first Arab invasions of Sindh in 712 AD. The latter group are believed to have been soldiers with Muhammad bin Qasim's Arab army, and were called Zanjis. Siddis are related to the Bantu peoples of Southeast Africa. They were brought to the Indian subcontinent as slaves by the Portuguese.

The Sheedis of Pakistan, also known as Makranis, live primarily along the Makran Coast in Balochistan, and southern part of Sindh. In Karachi, they are mainly concentrated in Lyari. Pir Mangho is revered by Sheedis as their patron saint. Sheedis have an annual celebration in Manghopir area around the shrine of their patron saint.

Chitral Valley:

A 10,000 ft high mountain pass and big glaciers separate the scenic Chitral valley, the home of the Kalash, from the Swat Valley that was hit by the Taliban insurgency in 2009. It has so far served to insulate these pagan people from the rising tide of intolerance and religious militancy in the Islamic Republic.



A CNN story calling the Kalsh "the happiest people in Pakistan" succinctly captured their lives in the following sentence: "Year round, the Kalasha dance their way through a stream of festivals and rituals, and socially and culturally, theirs appears to be a joyful existence".

Hunza's Greek and Macedonian Connections:

A few years ago, the neighboring Hunza people,who also claim descent from Alexander's men, found themselves in the middle of a tussle between the governments of Greece and Macedonia. Below is a post I wrote back in 2008 on this subject:

"I am honored to be in my country Macedonia", said Prince Ghazanfar Ali Khan of Hunza, as he arrived in Skopje, the capital of the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia in July this year, according to Financial Times.

So what is the Wali of Hunza doing in Macedonia? It is hard to believe but true that Pakistan and Pakistanis figure prominently in the ongoing struggle for the inheritance of the legacy of Alexander, the Great, and with it, Macedonia as a moniker. Both Greece and the country of Macedonia, officially called the "Former Yugoslav Republic (FYR) of Macedonia" by UN and other international bodies, claim Alexander's legacy.

The prince, his wife Princess Rani Atiqa and their entourage claim descent from Alexander the Great’s conquering army, which reached their Hunza tribal homeland in northern Pakistan 23 centuries ago.

The princely state of the Hunza is currently in northern Pakistan, former part of Persia, and the place of their residence is, according to historic data, the most eastern point of the kingdom of Alexander of Macedonia.

Hunza folklore gave a shot in the arm to the ex-Yugoslav country of 2m – still embroiled, 18 years after independence, in a frustrating “name dispute” with Greece, whose northern province is also called Macedonia. Greece has opposed the country of Macedonia calling itself Macedonia. To pacify Greeks, the world calls the nation of Macedonia F.Y.R. Macedonia, where F.Y.R. stands for the former Yugoslav republic.

As Greece and F.Y.R. Macedonia fight over their claim to the name of Macedonia and Alexander's heritage, they have both been courting the Kalash and Hunza people of Pakistan. While the FYR of Macedonia rolled out the red carpet for the prince of Hunza, the Greek government is funding the cultural activities of the Kalash people of northern Pakistan.



Aleksandar Dimiskovski, a business consultant in Skopje, told Financial Times: “The [Hunza] visit provides affirmation of our ties to the former Macedonia of Alexander the Great. Approval from these people confirms that the legacy of ancient Macedonia belongs to the Republic of Macedonia, not just to Greece.”


The fair-skinned, blue-eyed Hunza people, whose own accounts trace their descent to Alexander’s march-weary troops, are renowned for their longevity and their high literacy rate, says the Financial Times story on Hunza. In the 1930s, scientists in Nazi Germany also combed the Himalayas in search of lost Aryan cousins.

In addition to the Macedonian prime minister and his cabinet, the Hunza delegation also met Archbishop of Ohrid and Macedonia, HH Stefan, and Skopje Mayor Trifun Kostovski, according to Turkish Weekly Journal.

The delegation visited sites and towns throughout Macedonia, and attended the renowned Galichnik Wedding. The Hunza visit was organized by Macedonian Institute for Strategic Research.

FYR Macedonia has been making efforts to seek the attention and support of the United States in its fight with Greece. As a part of this campaign, Macedonian officials attempted to ingratiate the US by trying to become an ally in the war on terror. Macedonian security officials planned and staged fake anti-terrorist raids in which six innocent Pakistanis and an Indian migrant were killed in cold blood in late 2001, two months after 911 attacks. The New York Times covered the details of this fake tale of terror in Macedonia in a May 2004 story. The Hunza prince's sponsored visit, and the warm welcome he received in Macedonia, seem to be a continuation of the same cynical campaign that started with the massacre of innocent Pakistanis in Macedonia.

Here's a video clip of Wali of Hunza's visit to Macedonia:

Related Links:

Haq's Musings

Pakistan's Greek and Macedonian Connection

Soccer Loving Sheedis of Lyari

Taliban Insurgency in Swat

Harvard Genetics Study Finds Most Indians Not Indigenous

Rising Tide of Intolerance in Pakistan

Pakistani Cover Girls

Pakistan's Top Fashion Models

Upwardly Mobile Pakistan


Haq's Musings: Kalash Girls of Pakistan

i dont know why u guys who are residents of western countries take pride or joy at things that connect u to west or their culture......BTW there is no proof of their ancestry to be Greek or Macedonian.

 

[A1Kaid]

Porus was arrested? Where did any one say that? Two times in the battle, Alexander was in the mercy of Porus according to the Greek and Roman historian only and Porus was arrested? Come on!

They are just glorifying their king Alexander. Had ad they have written against Alexander, they would be subjected to execution.

Alexander was not Plutarch's King, Plutarch isn't even Macedonian... You haven't provided a single source to support your claims or argument. I just want to make it clear to everyone that your opinion is unsubstantiated.

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

Alexander was not Plutarch's King, Plutarch isn't even Macedonian... You haven't provided a single source to support your claims or argument. I just want to make it clear to everyone that your opinion is unsubstantiated.

Plutarch was neither from subcontinent.

Read Shah Nama by Firdausi , Porus is mentioned as Fur. Who won against the Alexander. But only if you know the farsi, because translators have edited it too.

 

[Roybot]

Nope, no one claim that. But I do know for fact that 95% of Indians proudly claim aryan decent. lmao I bet you also claim aryan decent don't you?



How are indigenous people of Pakistan part of India or central asia? You don't make any sense.

Science have answers for this, and there is wall between indigenous Pakistanis and Indians.

Yes that would be cause of the infusion of various foreign blood due to the , "mixing events" . Indians are the pure Indians, Pakistanis would be the half-caste Indians, for the lack of a better inoffensive word.

 

[faisal6309]

That doesn't mean his army lost the battle. Your logic is, because Alexander was wounded and withdrawn from the battle = Macedonian defeat in Battle of Hydapses?

According to Plutarch, King Porus was arrested after the battle and his army defeated. If King Porus had won as you suggest why would he be arrested? King Porus lived because he was allowed to, Alexander allowed him to govern his former Kingdom as a reward of being one of the fiercest armies he ever fought. Alexander respected King Porus, he said Porus would be treated "like a King" after he was arrested.

Alexander won the Battle of Hydapses, but lets just say it cost him his life and the ultimate end of his military campaign, in that sense you could view it as a defeat, but it was NOT a military defeat!



Plutarch • Life of Alexander (Part 5 of 7)

Their most memorable clash was at the Battle of Hydaspes (Jhelum) against the army of Porus, the ruler of the Paurava kingdom of western Punjab. For more than 25 centuries it was believed that Alexander’s forces defeated the Indians. Greek and Roman accounts say the Indians were bested by the superior courage and stature of the Macedonians.

Two millennia later, British historians latched on to the Alexander legend and described the campaign as the triumph of the organised West against the chaotic East. Although Alexander defeated only a few minor kingdoms in India’s northwest, in the view of many gleeful colonial writers the conquest of India was complete.

In reality much of the country was not even known to the Greeks. So handing victory to Alexander is like describing Hitler as the conqueror of Russia because the Germans advanced up to Stalingrad.

Zhukov’s view of Alexander

In 1957, while addressing the cadets of the Indian Military Academy, Dehra Dun, Zhukov said Alexander’s actions after the Battle of Hydaspes suggest he had suffered an outright defeat. In Zhukov’s view, Alexander had suffered a greater setback in India than Napoleon in Russia. Napoleon had invaded Russia with 600,000 troops; of these only 30,000 survived, and of that number fewer than 1,000 were ever able to return to duty.

So if Zhukov was comparing Alexander’s campaign in India to Napoleon’s disaster, the Macedonians and Greeks must have retreated in an equally ignominious fashion. Zhukov would know a fleeing force if he saw one; he had chased the German Army over 2000 km from Stalingrad to Berlin.

No easy victories

Alexander’s troubles began as soon as he crossed the Indian border. He first faced resistance in the Kunar, Swat, Buner and Peshawar valleys where the Aspasioi and Assakenoi, known in Hindu texts as Ashvayana and Ashvakayana, stopped his advance. Although small by Indian standards they did not submit before Alexander’s killing machine.

The Assakenoi offered stubborn resistance from their mountain strongholds of Massaga, Bazira and Ora. The bloody fighting at Massaga was a prelude to what awaited Alexander in India. On the first day after bitter fighting the Macedonians and Greeks were forced to retreat with heavy losses. Alexander himself was seriously wounded in the ankle. On the fourth day the king of Massaga was killed but the city refused to surrender. The command of the army went to his old mother, which brought the entire women of the area into the fighting.

Realising that his plans to storm India were going down at its very gates, Alexander called for a truce. The Assakenoi agreed; the old queen was too trusting. That night when the citizens of Massaga had gone off to sleep after their celebrations, Alexander’s troops entered the city and massacred the entire citizenry. A similar slaughter then followed at Ora.

However, the fierce resistance put up by the Indian defenders had reduced the strength – and perhaps the confidence – of the until then all-conquering Macedonian army.

A few years before the Indian campaign, a large part of the Macedonian army was massacred by the Scythians (Hindu Shakas, the Buddha’s clansmen) at Polytimetus, present day Tajikistan. Alexander warned his surviving troops not to discuss the massacre with other soldiers.

Strabo, the Greek historian wrote: “Generally speaking, the men who have written on the affairs of India were a set of liars…Of this we became the more convinced whilst writing the history of Alexander.”

In 326 BCE a formidable European army invaded India. Led by Alexander of Macedon it comprised battle hardened Macedonian soldiers, Greek cavalry, Balkan fighters and Persians allies. The total number of fighting men numbered more than 41,000.

 

[ShahidT]

@RiazHaq This is misconception I know many people think it, but I've read some research done on them and they are not related to greeks. Kalash are actually dards like nuristani and some other tribes of Pak northern areas+pamir mountains. I can't find that journal source right now but you can take my word I'm sure of it, should be around somewhere on google.

 

[Viva India]

@faisal6309

That post was not for the sane posters like you


And during the Alexander invasion of India (Pakistan) his army was mostly consist of non Greeks, Slaves,Persian mercinaries which he mustered after he lost majority of native Greek due to attrition of his long campaign.

 

[faisal6309]

@faisal6309

That post was not for the sane posters like you


And during the Alexander invasion of India (Pakistan) his army was mostly consist of non Greeks, Slaves,Persian mercinaries which he mustered after he lost majority of native Greek due to attrition of his long campaign.

Then for what people is it?

I am saying the same. He could've released his greek soldiers and go forward with new soldiers from persia and India if he won that battle. He could've learned about new Elephant army and way of fighting. But he retreated and went away because he simply failed.

 

[saadee]

OH MY GAWD! I WAS IN PAKISTAN LAST WEEK. HOW COME I MISSED THIS ONE Nice Kaakiyaan

jindagi kay haath mein jindagi khilona hai
un kay ghar mein kuriyaan naachain meeray ghar mein rona hai?
Lo dasso

 

[faisal6309]

OH MY GAWD! I WAS IN PAKISTAN LAST WEEK. HOW COME I MISSED THIS ONE Nice Kaakiyaan

jindagi kay haath mein jindagi khilona hai
un kay ghar mein kuriyaan naachain meeray ghar mein rona hai?
Lo dasso

I heard that they have boyfriend girlfriend culture and parents respect their decision oof marrying with anyone they like. May be you need to...