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Pakistani troops fire on intruding U.S. choppers

How is Afghanistan justified? Ok Taliban were wrong to harbor the AQ and were retarded in their approach of world affairs, however why has the US war turned into an anti-Pashtun operation? Not every Pashtun is a Taliban, however the way this war is being run, every Pashtun is being turned into a Talib.

All this talk of AQ people getting killed is BS. Most of the people picking up arms and taking on the US, ISAF and Pakistani forces (interestingly enough the Afghan forces are nowhere in this equation), are local Pashtuns. There is a sprinkling of outsiders who believe the US is on the wrong to come and occupy another sovereign country, however they in no way pose a threat to the US and the world at large.

Just like the Afghans were left in the lurch after the Soviet withdrawal, another mistake is being made by turning a vast number of Pashtuns into the enemy. For as long as the Pashtuns are looked upon this way, there will be no peace in Afghanistan or Pakistan (and as a result no stability in South/Central Asia).

Dear Blain,

The balme lies 50:50 between USA and you.

Please answer the questions as you have a rational and analytical mind.

1. Who allowed for good or bad reasons the US to use them for getting rid of the Soviets ?

2. Who bullied you in being their allies after they got targetted ?

3. Why are you so dependent on them ?

Regards
 
Do you read my posts or U just dont like my name ? I have said

If terror eminates from India then they can also be bombed.

If Kashmir is not a freedom struggle then Europe and the world is deluded. (However it includes only the valley and all 3 countries are aggressors in Kashmir)

There cannot be any no more partitions of Pakistan for any reason.

Iraq was a wrong war but Afghanistan is justified.

Regards
nothing is wrong is with your name it's only your words that don't do justice with it.

Don't you see terrorists and forces operating out of Afghanistan are working on a common goal.
Terrorists are even being provided with logistics support out of Afgahnistan, they cross borders on humvees!

Afghan war is even more unjustified than Iraq. Iraq invasion has atleast secured democracy for Iraqis but Afghan war has taken away democratic rule and installed a dictator.
 
nothing is wrong is with your name it's only your words that don't do justice with it.

Don't you see terrorists and forces operating out of Afghanistan are working on a common goal.
Terrorists are even being provided with logistics support out of Afgahnistan, they cross borders on humvees!

Afghan war is even more unjustified than Iraq. Iraq invasion has atleast secured democracy for Iraqis but Afghan war has taken away democratic rule and installed a dictator.

If you speak to the Nato they will have a different take. Please also accept that our soldiers are not scared to criticse their bosses unlike the asian soldier.

So I am sure the world is better of with the Nato there.

Even Neo agrees that FATA agreement was a disastor.

Time to stand up to say whether your a Pakistani or a muslim as only one can be right.

Regards
 
Time to stand up to say whether your a Pakistani or a muslim as only one can be right.

Regards

The issue is not one of deciding between a Pakistani or a Muslim, it has never been that and if someone proposes this then they will not go very far with it. for most Pakistanis, Pakistan without Islam is no Pakistan. While the difference in opinion exists as to how much Islam there should be, let there be no doubt that most Muslim Pakistanis identify Pakistan as a Muslim entity and one without the other is not a possibility in the Pakistan of today. There is no power out there that can change this.

The moment is to decide whether Pakistan should pursue the rights of Pashtuns in Afghanistan or let go. If the answer is no then Pakistan may be able to quell the dissent internally for some period but in the long run, Pakistan and Afghanistan will both burn as this move will result in the Pashtuns feeling alienated and with their backs against the wall.
 
Dear Blain,

Please answer the questions as you have a rational and analytical mind.

1. Who allowed for good or bad reasons the US to use them for getting rid of the Soviets ?

Nobody amongst the Afghans asked anyone specifically to help them. They got aid from all over the world. The Saudis helped them as much as the US did at least financially. The difference here was that once the war was over and Afghanistan was left raped and pillaged, the world turned its back on them. If something along the lines of a mini-Marshall plan had been implemented back then, AQ/Taliban would not have found a foothold there.
2. Who bullied you in being their allies after they got targetted ?

The Americans did of course. Had Pakistan the means and the ability, it would have stayed out of the fray.

3. Why are you so dependent on them ?

This without a doubt is our own weakness. Can't blame anyone for it. I look forward to the day when Pakistani leadership says "no thank you" to the US aid. Every penny accepted is another link in the chain of bondage to US diktats. Granted that some of the aid from the US has been well-meaning, however a lot more of it has come with nasty strings attached (I don't blame the US for this, they have to watch out for their interests, however we should have been more careful in taking up this help).
 
GEO Pakistan
Kayani apprises Mullen of territorial violations
Updated at: 1135 PST, Wednesday, September 17, 2008


RAWALPINDI: An extraordinary meeting held Wednesday between Army chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani and top US military commander Admiral Mike Mullen in Rawalpindi.

Army chief General Kayani lodged a protest with the top US military commander over the recent violations of its territorial boundary by the Afghanistan-based foreign troops.

Both military chiefs discussed the issues related to the war on terror and Pak-Afghan borders. Besides this, they discussed recent statements issued by the two sides regarding US attacks inside Pakistan’s territory.

General Kayani said there is not agreement or understanding between two countries which allows US to carry out attacks inside Pakistani boundary.

He made it clear that it was the sole authority of Pakistan army to launch attack inside its territorial boundaries. General Kayani further said Angoor Adda-like incidents would affect the ongoing cooperation between US and Pakistan.

US commander is holding separate meeting with Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani while General Kayani is also present in the meeting.:tup::lol:
Admiral Mullen will also hold meetings with Joint Chief Staff Committee and other officials.




GEO Pakistan
Army Chief Kiyani to visit China next week
Updated at: 0735 PST, Wednesday, September 17, 2008


ISLAMABAD: Chief of Army Staff General Pervez Kiyani would fly on 5-day visit to China on 22 September to mark his first ever visit to any country after he took over Army Chief seat, army sources said.

Some senior army officials would accompany him. During his visit Kiyani plans to visit some of China’s army training camps to analyze the latest defensive technology and war-based machinery inducted recently in Chinese army, sources added.

According to sources, he would hold meeting with Chinese President and his counterpart General Chin.:agree::tup:



I guss, the meeting with mullen doesnt reach something good for pakistan!
anyway, COAS's vist to china, is the best pakistani step in the recnt days.
it can give pakistan army, great boost for its ground defences, extensive traning of the troops in the difficut situation, regurding the prposed attack by ALLIES.this vist is comming , after ASIF(ghadari) denial for chinese trip. as ASIF (ghadari) ran to UK, to meet BROWN, or to let him , know about non agreement by COAS on the issue, thus he is affraid , that any time now & then, GEN.KIYANI can kick out the PPP, govt.:enjoy::agree::tup:
 
Agree there for the most part.

I don't look at the situation so much from the statements the two make, but more so from the philosophies the two subscribe to.

I have strong disagreements with Conservative philosophy in general, though I agree on some economic and limited government issues.

Are you going to be able to vote this election?

Im in Canada currently sir...........My dad or mom did not get the green card's as they were on student visas in Ohio...........I lived in Columbus from when i was 2 till 9 then went to Pakistan to live with my grandma(maternal)!

Anyways.....
Im 17, so the age isnt even enough to vote in Canada. BTW.....Who would you vote for, McCain, Obama or Ralph Nader!
 
Agree there for the most part.

I don't look at the situation so much from the statements the two make, but more so from the philosophies the two subscribe to.

I have strong disagreements with Conservative philosophy in general, though I agree on some economic and limited government issues.

I dunno..............their economics are fundamentally sound on one front. Fiscal Conservatism. But their alliences with big business, oil, and the rich elite are what ticks me off here up in Canada!

On the moral issues, I appreciate their postion that life begins at conception parallel to the traditional Muslim view.....but that is where the similarities end!
 
I found this article very interesting and informative.


Vested interests drive US's Pakistan policy
By Gareth Porter
Sep 19, 2008

WASHINGTON - The George W Bush administration's decision to launch commando raids and step up missiles strikes against Taliban and al-Qaeda figures in the tribal areas of Pakistan followed what appears to have been the most contentious policy process over the use of force in Bush's eight-year presidency.

That decision has stirred such strong opposition from the Pakistani military and government that it is now being revisited. Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, arrived in Pakistan on Tuesday for the second time in three weeks, and US officials and sources told Reuters that any future raids would be approved on a mission-by-mission basis by a top US administration official.

The policy was the result of strong pressure from the US command in Afghanistan and lobbying by the Special Operations Command (SOCOM) and the Central Intelligence Agency's operations directorate (DO), both of which had direct institutional interests in operations that coincided with their mandate.

State Department and some Pentagon officials had managed to delay the proposed military escalation in Pakistan for a year by arguing that it would be based on nearly non-existent intelligence and would only increase support for Islamic extremists in that country.

But officials of SOCOM and the CIA prevailed, apparently because Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney believed they could not afford to be seen as doing nothing about bin Laden and al-Qaeda in the administration's final months.

SOCOM had a strong institutional interest in a major new operation in Pakistan.

The Army's Delta Force and navy SEALS had been allowed by the Pakistani military to accompany its forces on raids in the tribal area in 2002 and 2003, but not to operate on their own. And even that extremely limited role was ended by Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf in 2003, which frustrated SOCOM officials.

Former defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld, whose antagonism toward the CIA was legendary, had wanted SOCOM to take over the hunt for bin Laden. And in 2006, SOCOM's Joint Special Operations Command branch in Afghanistan pressed Rumsfeld to approve a commando operation in Pakistan aimed at capturing a high-ranking al-Qaeda operative.

SOCOM had the support of the US command in Afghanistan, which was arguing that the war in Afghanistan could not be won as long as the Taliban had a safe haven in Pakistan from which to launch attacks. The top US commander, Lieutenant General Karl Eikenberry, worked with SOCOM and DO officers in Afghanistan to assemble the evidence of Pakistan's cooperation with the Taliban.

Despite concerns that such an operation could cause a massive reaction in Pakistan against the US war on al-Qaeda, Rumsfeld gave in to the pressure in early November 2006 and approved the operation, according to an account in the New York Times on June 30. But within days, Rumsfeld was out as defense secretary, and the operation was put on hold.

Nevertheless, Bush and Cheney, who had been repeating that Musharraf had things under control in the frontier area, soon realized that they would be politically vulnerable to charges that they weren't doing anything about bin Laden.

The July 2007 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) was the signal for the CIA's DO to step up its own lobbying for control over a Pakistan operation, based on the Afghan model - namely, CIA officers training and arming a local militia while identifying targets for strikes from the air.

In a Washington Post column only two weeks after the NIE's conclusions were made public, David Ignatius quoted former CIA official Hank Crumpton, who had run the CIA operation in Afghanistan after the September 11, 2001, attacks on the US, proposed a DO operation: "We either do it now, or we do it after the next attack."

That either-or logic and the sense of political vulnerability in the White House was the key advantage of the advocates of a new war in Pakistan. Last November, the New York Times reported that the Defense Department had drafted an order based on the SOCOM proposal for the training of local tribal forces and for new authority for "covert" commando operations in Pakistan's frontier provinces.

But the previous experience with missile strikes against al-Qaeda targets using Predator drones and the facts on the ground provided plenty of ammunition to those who opposed the escalation. It showed that the proposed actions would have little or no impact on either the Taliban or al-Qaeda in Pakistan, and would bring destabilizing political blowback.

In January 2006, the CIA had launched a missile strike on a residential compound in Damadola, near the Afghan border, on the basis of erroneous intelligence that al-Qaeda deputy Ayman al-Zawahiri would be there. The destruction killed as many as 25 people, according to residents, including 14 members of one family.

Some 8,000 tribesmen in the Damadola area protested the killing, and in the southern port city of Karachi tens of thousands more rallied against the United States, shouting "Death to America!"

Musharraf later claimed the dead included four high-ranking al-Qaeda officials, including Zawahiri's son-in-law. The Washington Post's Craig Whitlock reported last week, however, that US and Pakistani officials now admit only villagers were killed.

It was well known within the counter-terrorism community that the US search for al-Qaeda leaders in Pakistan was severely limited by the absence of actionable intelligence. For years, the US military had depended almost entirely on Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence, despite its well-established ties with the Taliban and even al-Qaeda.

One of the counter-terrorism officials without a direct organizational stake in the issue, US State Department counter-terrorism chief General Dell L Dailey, bluntly summed up the situation to reporters in January. "We don't have enough information about what's going on there," he said. "Not on al-Qaeda, not on foreign fighters, not on the Taliban."

A senior US official quoted by the Post in February was even more scathing on that subject, saying, "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then."

Meanwhile, the Pakistani military, reacting to the US aim of a more aggressive US military role in the tribal areas, repeatedly rejected the US military proposal for training Frontier Corps units.

The US command in Afghanistan and SOCOM increased the pressure for escalation early last summer by enlisting visiting members of the US Congress in support of the plan. Texas Republican congressmen Michael McCaul, who had visited Afghanistan and Pakistan, declared on his return that it was "imperative that US forces be allowed to pursue the Taliban and al-Qaeda in tribal areas inside Pakistan".

In late July, according to The Times of London, Bush signed a secret national security presidential directive which authorized operations by special operations forces without the permission of Pakistan.

The Bush decision ignored the disconnect between the aims of the new war and the realities on the ground in Pakistan. Commando raids and missile strikes against mid-level or low-level Taliban or al-Qaeda operatives, carried out in a sea of angry Pashtuns, will not stem the flow of fighters from Pakistan into Afghanistan or weaken al-Qaeda. But they will certainly provoke reactions from the tribal population that can tilt the affected areas even further toward the Islamic radicals.

At least some military leaders without an institutional interest in the outcome understood that the proposed escalation was likely to backfire. One senior military officer told the Los Angeles Times last month that he had been forced by the "fragility of the current government in Islamabad" to ask whether "you do more long-term harm if you act very, very aggressively militarily".

Gareth Porter is an investigative historian and journalist specializing in US national security policy. The paperback edition of his latest book, Perils of Dominance: Imbalance of Power and the Road to War in Vietnam, was published in 2006.

(Inter Press Service)
 
Im in Canada currently sir...........My dad or mom did not get the green card's as they were on student visas in Ohio...........I lived in Columbus from when i was 2 till 9 then went to Pakistan to live with my grandma(maternal)!

Anyways.....
Im 17, so the age isnt even enough to vote in Canada. BTW.....Who would you vote for, McCain, Obama or Ralph Nader!
is Ralph Nader contesting?????
 
after what happened in 2000 he should have left politics. Unless he is paid by the republicans ;-)
 
west is certainly playing cold war games with pak trying to check our response if we don't respond quickly and aggresivly like the soviets used to, then our existence will be threatend a green signal to israel to hit our nuclear assets whenever they like,its a very important and historical time for the world as a new cold war could be started and we have no one else but america to thank for it pushing its allies away ,and frankly the best option i see is russia its abt time pakistani leaders should start visiting moscow to tell u the truth moscow is the best supporter for the muslim world the way it treated HAMAS and towards syria and iran russia does'nt care abt the world when it comes to supporting freinds diplomatically and technologically see irans case russia has made it clear no action will be allowed in iran and vetoed sanctions against it,supplied iran with s-300 sam's ,now thats the sort of a freind pakistan needs,look at iran its military is no where near pakistans military but america does not dare mess arnd with it ,why bcuz it has russia and china on its back,now a days the way world events are going any one who is anti american can easily become russia's best freind only by justifying its attack on GEORGIA,and accepting both states abkhazia and s.ossetia ,India is not the same as b4 with russia due to its intrests with the west,chinese have the same thing,but iranians,syrians ,venesuellans,bolivians have supported russia whole heartedly and a few central asian states if we join in with them putting in a good word and shaking hands and backing it up diplomatically on all issues we will be the new best freind of russia,and it will benefit both russia and pakistan,pakistan is situated in a GEOGRAPHICAL location from where through afghanistan america wants to build a oil pipeline (thats why there are nato and americans still in afghanistan they are there as oil pipeline security forget propeganda war,freedom ,democarcy ,womens right same case with georgia)there are only two routes through iran and pakistan once both these countries are allied with russia ,american plans will suffer horribly,secondly there are two supply routes to afghanistan for allied supplies through russia and pakistan aligning with russia will give both pak and russia a bargaining chip as they can cut of the supply routes and the coalition will be literally seiged in afghanistan ,what else benefits will pak gain well! west always sells us equipment thats no more required as frontline equipment by them and is going to be obselete soon but russia will be able to give us advance equipment ofcourse we will have to pay but its money well spent and much less then outdated western eqipment sold to us when ur getting the latest equipment i.e S-400,su-35s,mig-35s,tanguska-m,akula class nuclear sub, then only we will realise how the west treated us and the west will never sell us equipment with these capabilities bcuz then we will be able to counter their attacks and russian equipment is economical and high-tech and many of its radar systems claim to track down stealth jets (just like americans claim their jets are stealth i.e f-22,b2 lets remember they have come across only airforces with 60's russian technology or no airforce at all and that outdated tech managed to shoot down f-117 in serbia )so its the best bet for pak maybe this will make west realise its rampage against eastern nations is creating more anti western sentiments and forcing them to form coalitions to protect their soverignty against these wolves heading towrds them,and once we have russian support we can form a defence pact b/w pakistan,iran ,venesuell,bolivia ,cubaand syria (sort of like warsaw pact) and if this all happens beleive me west will think twice b4 taking any military action against any one nation and this will push many nations openly threatend or covertly threatend to join the coalition and beleive me many nations are just waiting for any such thing to happen bcuz almost every one is bullied arnd and tired of american tyranny and oppression rather then going down one by one all will prefer to join forces and if attacked fight united against selfish,imperialtic,zionist opportunistic forces who threat world peace,so my country men we have to take some action soon or we will go down as cowards in history who still kissed the hand that slapped them so guys lets hope for the best,peace and out,PAKISTAN ZINDABAD
 
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If you speak to the Nato they will have a different take. Please also accept that our soldiers are not scared to criticse their bosses unlike the asian soldier.

So I am sure the world is better of with the Nato there.

Even Neo agrees that FATA agreement was a disastor.

Time to stand up to say whether your a Pakistani or a muslim as only one can be right.

Regards

If the Indians can be both Hindus and Indians at the same time, if blair and bush can embrace Christianity and hold the British and American citizenship respectively, the rules cannot be different for the Pakistanis. Your statement shows just how neutral you are, I suggest you change you user name or else I 'll have to address you as Mr. Charlatan.:whistle:
 
If the Indians can be both Hindus and Indians at the same time, if blair and bush can embrace Christianity and hold the British and American citizenship respectively, the rules cannot be different for the Pakistanis. Your statement shows just how neutral you are, I suggest you change you user name or else I 'll have to address you as Mr. Charlatan.:whistle:

man ur right always neutral is anything but neutral i feel like he is a spy a agent of zionists placed to monitor our chats ,who is incharge here all pak bros should contact him and ban this guy from this site this site should only be 4 the pak people intrsested in their defence any one against pak can go else where we don't need them here go to their military web pages this is a web page made out of patriotism for pakistan and we expect that from all members this site ain't the place to propagate ur secret zionist and neo con agenda all PAKISTANI BROTHERS is ko yahan sey nikal bahar karo yeh koi siaysat per bat nahin hu rahi yahan hum apnay watan kay liya preshan hain aur yeh sala mazay ley raha hai agar aap sab bhi apnay watan sey wafa rakhtay hain tu is ku yahan sey nikal bahar karna zarori hai yeh jalti per tail chirk raha hai ALLAH hamarey mulk ka hami u nasir aur madadgar hu inshallah hum sarey dushmanon sey khud nibar leyingay barhal wasalam my bros and sisters !pakistan zindabad
 
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