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Pakistani troops fire on intruding U.S. choppers

Always

carry on begging to be helped and the world will think you are not only lazy but intellectually feeble - now we won't want that, it just won't do, so chop, chop - that's a good boy.:cheers:

I take it debate and proof are not your strongest points.

Cheers to you too unless you dont have a local near you.

:cheers:
 
Dear AM,
I find it equally hard to understand why would any one in the border areas help anti-establishment forces in their war against their own Govt

Why do local populations in any insurgency hit area extend support?

What drives local support, where it exists (it is untrue that a majority willingly support the Taliban against the GoP, though it is probably true that a majority, across Pakistan possibly, support the militants against NATO), is complex.

Religion, sub-nationalism, Tribal loyalties, force, fear, lack of development, lack of faith in existing institutions and political systems - an amalgamation of any or all of the above to varying degrees. Add in the pervasive distrust and anti-Us sentiment across the Muslim world as well.
 
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AN,

I believe that the argument that the US attacked the wrong target in Angor Adda was mentioned in some US newspapers quoting anonymous sources (NYT was one if I remember correctly and also validated by Pakistani officials). The intel was flawed.
 
I take it debate and proof are not your strongest points.

Cheers to you too unless you dont have a local near you

Don't be like that, no need to get pouty. I don't want the world to think of you as lazy, intellectually feeble, nor do I want the world to think of you as a sleazy ingratiating kiss ***.

I want you to be a critical thinker - to realize that as you as you are persuaded by a point of view or analysis, there is another more compelling point of view or analysis just around the corner. Nobody has a monopoly of the truth
.
 
AN,

I believe that the argument that the US attacked the wrong target in Angor Adda was mentioned in some US newspapers quoting anonymous sources (NYT was one if I remember correctly and also validated by Pakistani officials). The intel was flawed.

Ok AM,

If we accept the above just curious why the Pakistan Govt does not take the matter up in UN or to the human rights court or sue the US or send the US Ambassador back ? after all killing innocents is a crime all over the world.

Just curious again.

Regards
 
Don't be like that, no need to get pouty. I don't want the world to think of you as lazy, intellectually feeble, nor do I want the world to think of you as a sleazy ingratiating kiss ***.

I want you to be a critical thinker - to realize that as you as you are persuaded by a point of view or analysis, there is another more compelling point of view or analysis just around the corner. Nobody has a monopoly of the truth
.

Guess your metacarpels are more used to writing propoganda than the truth.

Have a nice day and let the world judge me for shooting the message and not the messanger without any help from you. Anyway Thanks for the offer and guidance. Hope you donot advice the GOP as that would be not too good for them.

Regards

:taz:
 
Nope - the monsters were already there, of various shades - we just helped one shade of monsters rise above the others (the Taliban were already in existence before Pakistan, Karzai and some other Pashtun leaders in Afghanistan started supporting them), in an attempt to bring about stability, since this set of monsters seemed the best of the evils on display..

After the war there were many options .. there was Masood .. Neutral , nationalistic and a balanced personality .. but Pakistan choose or rather created Taliban.. made them strong .. provide them legal accpetence ( Pakistan and Saudi Arabia was the only two countries who accpted and supported Taliban inspite of there medivial policies ..)
just to play its own game .. and now the same mad dogs are biting its old master back ..

The ideology of extremism is always path of suicide ..
but may be you have few words to counter them .. after all who will accpet mistake ?

Because the US has different perceptions and a different time table for this war. Pakistan has its own domestic and regional constraints it must deal with - these constraints do not factor into the US calculus, and hence its attempts to coerce Pakistan to 'do more' on its own terms

Domestic and regional constraint ... in ability to accpet its mistake and rectify it .. you want mad dog till it barks and bites as per your command ..
but you forget .. mad dog are mad dog ..

inspite of so much mess .. you will still have words for so call rebuttal ..
 
I take it that you safely live in the west and wish Pakistan to be reduced into another Zimbabwe. Keep it up and your wish will come true.

Regards

:crazy:

Always Neutral, sir
comparing pakistan with zimbabwe would be great unjustice, & by the way robert mugabe is a very dearst friend of pakistan. what was his crime?
i guss, he cant take dictation from the white imperilistic regims in west?
any way, he did made them crazy because of his , strong support from zimbabwe's militry.
As most the west wanted , his ouster, he is still holding on with quite good control over the affairs. also most recntly , he reached an agreement with his opponent Morgan Tsvangirai .plz check out the full news, and plz stop making pakistanis affraid of allied rats.

Zimbabwe Factions Reach Deal
Power-Sharing Pact to Be Signed Monday, S. Africa's Mbeki Says
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, September 12, 2008;

I hope, you will find enough !


Pakistan Allegedly Repulses U.S. Raid
American Military Repudiates Report

By Candace Rondeaux
Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, September 16, 2008;


KARACHI, Pakistan, Sept. 15 -- Pakistani troops turned back a U.S. attack in Pakistan's tribal areas on Monday by firing warning shots toward U.S. troops as they attempted to cross from Afghanistan in pursuit of Taliban insurgents, a Pakistani intelligence official said. U.S. and Pakistani military spokesmen denied the report.

A Pakistani intelligence official said several U.S. helicopters were seen hovering near the Pakistani village of Angor Adda in the tribal area of South Waziristan. By the official's account, the helicopters landed just inside Afghanistan and several U.S. soldiers got out of them.

Pakistani troops fired warning shots in the air as the U.S. troops tried to enter Pakistani territory from Afghanistan, said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to speak publicly on military operations. The brief standoff ended about 4:30 a.m., the intelligence official said.

Local villagers gave similar accounts, the Reuters news agency reported.

But Maj. Murad Khan, a spokesman for the Pakistani military, denied reports of gunfire. "There was no firing in the area, and there was no violation of Pakistani airspace," Khan said. "We have heard there were U.S. helicopters hovering at our border area, but they were deep inside Afghanistan."

Sgt. Chris Peavy, a spokesman for the U.S. military in Afghanistan, said: "We fly everyday missions in that area, all the time. It's close to the border, but we did not enter that area today. There's been no firing on our forces."

Tensions over cross-border incursions by U.S. and Afghan forces into Pakistan's tribal areas have been rising for months, as U.S. and NATO troops have suffered several major setbacks in Afghanistan.

Those tensions came to a boil early this month when U.S. commandos landed helicopter gunships in another South Waziristan village on Sept. 3. Pakistani officials said at least 20 people were killed after U.S. troops opened fire on a compound in the village of Musa Nika.

The incident prompted outrage from Pakistan's government and sparked an ongoing debate in the country over Pakistan's increasingly tenuous alliance with the United States in the fight against Islamist insurgents in the region. The debate was fueled by strikes in the tribal area by U.S. Predator drone aircraft.


U.S. officials have pressured Pakistan to step up its efforts to cut off attacks on coalition troops from Pakistan's tribal areas. Frustrated by a lack of progress on containing the threat from Taliban and al-Qaeda commanders, President Bush signed an order in July authorizing U.S. troops to conduct ground operations inside Pakistan.

Last week, Pakistan's army chief, Gen. Ashfaq Kiyani, condemned the attacks, saying Pakistan is prepared to defend its territory "at all cost." Kiyani's statement followed comments by Adm. Michael Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, that increased U.S. incursions in Pakistan are likely.

Pakistan's newly elected president, Asif Ali Zardari, is expected to discuss the issue of cross-border strikes with Bush during a visit to the United Nations in New York next week.
Special correspondent Shaiq Hussain in Islamabad, Pakistan, contributed to this report.

And here is the real face of allies, who kept a pakistani women & her childrens in unjustifiyed , criminal custdy.... why?
Afghans Free Son of Pakistani Al-Qaeda Suspect
12-Year-Old to Be Sent to Relatives


By Candace Rondeaux
Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, September 16, 2008;


KARACHI, Pakistan, Sept. 15 -- The 12-year-old son of an American-educated Pakistani woman whom U.S. authorities have linked to al-Qaeda has been handed over to Pakistani authorities in Afghanistan and is soon to be reunited with family in Pakistan, Afghan and Pakistani officials said Monday.
The boy was detained in Afghanistan along with his mother, Aafia Siddiqui, in July, and his fate since then has been one of the many unanswered questions about his mother's case. Siddiqui is now in New York facing federal charges.

Afghan authorities released the boy to the Pakistani Embassy in the Afghan capital, Kabul, after learning that he holds dual citizenship in Pakistan and the United States, said Sultan Ahmed Baheen, a spokesman for the Afghan Foreign Ministry. "He is being sent back to relatives in Pakistan -- probably with his aunt."


Siddiqui is a behavioral scientist with degrees from Brandeis University and MIT. According to a federal indictment filed against her in New York this month, Siddiqui and her son were taken into custody while wandering near the home of the governor of Ghazni province. Her handbag was found to contain instructions for making bombs and chemical weapons, and notes that referred to a "mass casualty attack," the Empire State Building, the Brooklyn Bridge and the Statue of Liberty, the indictment alleged.

U.S. officials say that while in Afghan custody, Siddiqui grabbed the M4 rifle of a U.S. soldier who had come to question her. She fired several shots at him and other Americans and was herself shot in the subsequent scuffle, according to the indictment. Charged in a New York federal court last month, she could face a possible life sentence for allegedly attempting to kill the Americans.

According to a biography of high-value detainees released by the office of the U.S. National Director of Intelligence, Siddiqui married top al-Qaeda operative Ammar al-Baluchi shortly before he was arrested in Pakistan in April 2003 in connection with helping to plot the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

U.S. officials have alleged that Baluchi was a key assistant and relative of Khalid Sheik Mohammed, said to have been the central planner of the 9/11 attacks. Baluchi allegedly asked Siddiqui to assist another al-Qaeda plotter, Majid Khan, with gaining entry into the United States in 2002.

Siddiqui's whereabouts for the past five years have also been the subject of discord.

Family members say she and her three children disappeared five years ago when she was on her way to the airport in Karachi, where she planned to board a plane to visit an uncle in Islamabad. Siddiqui's sister, Fauzia Siddiqui, denies that her sister had any links to al-Qaeda.

British journalist and activist Yvonne Ridley has said that Siddiqui matched the description of a female prisoner held for five years in the U.S- run prison at Bagram air base in Afghanistan. Siddiqui's family has said she was tortured by Americans there.

Siddiqui's lawyers also say that she was kept in secret captivity in Pakistan at one point. The ordeal, they said, left her with severe physical and mental problems.

CIA officials have said she was never in U.S. custody and that they had no knowledge of Siddiqui's whereabouts before she surfaced in Ghazni in July.:cry::tsk:

I HAVE ONLY TWO WORDS FOR ALLIES SHAME ON YOU, &
DOWN WITH ALLIES:angry:
 
After the war there were many options .. there was Masood .. Neutral , nationalistic and a balanced personality

Logic, Masood, Rabbani and Hikmatkar, all three from Kabul university were groomed in response to the communist movement in kabul univerisity - of these three, Masood was the oldest asset, as he was useful in the panjsheri uprising against Daood.

However; Masood, being a tajik was unacceptable to the majority population, whichis of course Pakhtun or pashtun - so he cut his own deal with the Rus and others and of course, since as defence minister in rabbani's govt, he reneged on the agreement to allow turn at the presidency for Muajhidden commanders, hikmatyar rocketed Kabul -- and from there the die was cast

Could have been, should have been - point less navel gazing - the dynamics of Afghanistan are tribal and ethnic - read the piece from the Gaurdian paper in America's Afghanistan in the world affairs board for more.

I'm curious that the role of the US with regard to the Agreement to take turns at the presidency and the early stages of the Taliban movement are not of interest -- as if things happen out of context - interesting
 
How did you know that Americans fled ?
How do you know they didn't?

Please grow up. The Americans are not as stupid as U wish us to believe
I won't call them stupid but not necessarily too bright either. Instead look at recent history and draw your own conclusion. Iraq was a stupid mistake, Afghanistan even a bigger one. :crazy:

Its ironic that many of US' enemies used to be her allies, eg Iran under Shah, Iraq under Saddam during the Iran-Iraq War, Mujahideen (later Taliban) during the Sovjet invasion...all were heavily armed by the US and same weapons are now killing her own men.

Afghanistan's current mess is the result of political rape by the US and the Sovjets who both staged Cold War games on her soil and left hastely when the show was over (1987)...leaving a vacuum so the militants could take over. The fall out didn't only affect Pakistan but the whole world.
Still wondering who's stupid...?

, otherwise Gen M would have not backed down when they threathened war on all supporters of Taliban a few years back.
Thank God for that or else the world would be in much worse shape.

Please see the situation in Khurram province and how much control the armed forces have before u think they should take on the US.

Regards
Our hands are tied due consitutional restrictions. PA can not stay in FATA to engage an active war and FC is way too improfessional to beat an enemy even US can not handle.
 
After the war there were many options .. there was Masood .. Neutral , nationalistic and a balanced personality .. but Pakistan choose or rather created Taliban.. made them strong .. provide them legal accpetence ( Pakistan and Saudi Arabia was the only two countries who accpted and supported Taliban inspite of there medivial policies ..)
just to play its own game .. and now the same mad dogs are biting its old master back ..
Masod was by no means 'neutral' or 'clean' or balanced. His presence in Kabul also coincided with the massacre of Heratis, along with other atrocities later on. He was also distrusted by many of the Pashtun leaders, and by many of the Mujahideen. While he fought the Soviets, he also cut a lot of deals with them when he perceived himself at a disadvantage. Dostum was even worse when it came to his relationship with the Soviets, and his relationship with Masood further compromised him.

I realize that the Indian narrative (and now the West's as well, since he fought against their current enemy, the Taliban) has presented Masood as some sort of 'infallible hero', but he was anything but.

Since Massoud had no support from the powerful Pashtun figures, and the Pashtun were 40 percent of the country, plus the strong ethnic ties with Pakistan (in addition to the distrust over his Soviet 'deals' and connections to Dostum), it was but natural that a Pashtun party would have been pushed forward.

It was unfortunate that religious zeal played a part in which Pashtun party was chosen, but no one could have predicted then what would happen - as I said, the final results were due to a confluence of events, not just Pakistan's decision to support the Taliban's rise, or solely the religiosity of the entities involved.

Pakistan's goal was stability in Afghanistan, the taliban provided that in the majority of the country. Moderating their policies was always something Pakistan had pushed for, and it might have been possible had a decisive victory or compromise (between the NA and taliban) in Afghanistan been possible, and AQ not ingratiated itself with their leadership.

Getting the Taliban to work out an agreement with the NA was something the ISI strongly pushed for (as it did during the Jihad as well, between the Pashtun groups and Massoud), however, the Taliban refused, or put forward conditions that were unacceptable

The ideology of extremism is always path of suicide ..
but may be you have few words to counter them .. after all who will accpet mistake ?

Domestic and regional constraint ... in ability to accpet its mistake and rectify it .. you want mad dog till it barks and bites as per your command ..
but you forget .. mad dog are mad dog ..

inspite of so much mess .. you will still have words for so call rebuttal ..
Perhaps extremism does lead to suicide - but we all tolerate extremism to varying degrees - extremist nationalism for example, displayed by so many here, and used by Indians to justify an immoral and illegal occupation for example.

However, the question then wasn't one of supporting 'extremism that leads to suicide' it was of supporting a party that was highly religious, had shown itself of being able to bring about peace and stability in areas under its control, and had been welcomed by the people in those areas as well as powerful Pashtun Tribal leaders. At the time it was the correct decision to make.
 
How do you know they didn't?

HOW CAN YOU SAY THEY DID.

I won't call them stupid but not necessarily too bright either. Instead look at recent history and draw your own conclusion. Iraq was a stupid mistake, Afghanistan even a bigger one. :crazy:

THEN WHO IS CRAZIER THAN GEN M AND GOP WHICH ARE HAPPILY IN BED WITH USA.

Its ironic that many of US' enemies used to be her allies, eg Iran under Shah, Iraq under Saddam during the Iran-Iraq War, Mujahideen (later Taliban) during the Sovjet invasion...all were heavily armed by the US and same weapons are now killing her own men.

WHERE IS IRAN, AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ TODAY IN DEVELOPMENT TERMS ?

Afghanistan's current mess is the result of political rape by the US and the Sovjets who both staged Cold War games on her soil and left hastely when the show was over (1987)...leaving a vacuum so the militants could take over. The fall out didn't only affect Pakistan but the whole world.
Still wondering who's stupid...?

WHY WERE YOU WILLING ACCOMPLICES IN THE RAPE OF AFGHANISTAN ?

Thank God for that or else the world would be in much worse shape.

I DOUBT THE WORLD BE IN WORSE SHAPE BUT PAKISTAN WOULD DEFINATELY BE ?

Our hands are tied due consitutional restrictions. PA can not stay in FATA to engage an active war and FC is way too improfessional to beat an enemy even US can not handle.

GOP SHOULD CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION AS ITS FAILING THE COUNTRY.

REGARDS
 
AN,

I believe that the argument that the US attacked the wrong target in Angor Adda was mentioned in some US newspapers quoting anonymous sources (NYT was one if I remember correctly and also validated by Pakistani officials). The intel was flawed.

the intell will always be flawed unless or until you have boots on the ground. here i mean pakistani boots. that is why intell sharing between US/Nato and PA is so critical which is not forthcoming any time soon.
 
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