Pakistani Military Still Cultivates Militant Groups - More US Propaganda

[Solomon2]

Yes indeed, Jinnah awoke from his grave and gave shelter to OBL.

Good catch. That's what I get for writing at 1am.

Your quote about Jinnah is also from a source that is less than credible, but whatever.

This bit about Jinnah is common and well-documented enough that I merely linked to the first source available. Here's the original source, I think: link

 

[Nagraj]

ok people are saying that america is not ready to show any proof
chances are very high that american thinks it's useless sharing proof with pakistan.
pakistani as usual will do nothing even after getting the proof and go at ususal pace. and getting a step ahead they might get wind of the channels america is getting info from.
and let's admit it america is able to get it's thing done right now.


and those people who think america found osama in pakistan by accident here is an account of a man who worked hard till he got osama


man thought about pasting links from better newspapers but may be an arab newspaper will have more credibility in pakistan
although it looks like a shitty newspaper to me.

Getting Osama: Persistent CIA analyst finally succeeded. By Muna Khan


here is a better link http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/05/osama-bin-laden-cia-hunt_n_890016.html

 

[Stealth IFV]

Because of the fact that many Canadians are also a part of ISAF wheelings and dealings, we say with deep pity and remorse that certain facts about Pakistan's government are true, whether it be the intelligence agencies, certain wings of the armed forces and politicians, etc. that have taken to the idea of supporting and creating a response by said departments to send Pakistani civilians dressed in various fatigues into Afghanistan under cover of recent artillery bombing especially. Not only that, but money well earned is probably being spent researching this critical juncture.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Because of the fact that many Canadians are also a part of ISAF wheelings and dealings, we say with deep pity and remorse that certain facts about Pakistan's government, whether it be the intelligence agencies, certain wings of the armed forces and politicians, etc. have taken to the idea of supporting and creating a response by said departments to send Pakistani civilians dressed in various fatigue into Afghanistan under cover of recent artillery bombing especially. Not only that, but money well earned is probably being spent researching this critical juncture, with such belligerent and anti-west rhetoric not even seen in China or Somalia these days.

You can say whatever you want with 'deep pity and remorse, but the 'facts' remain that your claims, as those made in the NYT, remain unsubstantiated balderdash.

To paraphrase you, 'such belligerent and anti-Pakistan rhetoric, as seen in the US/Western press and by Western commentators, is not even seen in India'.

Before accusing Pakistanis of 'belligerent rhetoric', fix your own media and your own anti-Pakistan public opinion first.

 

[Stealth IFV]

You can say whatever you want with 'deep pity and remorse, but the 'facts' remain that your claims, as those made in the NYT, remain unsubstantiated balderdash.

To paraphrase you, 'such belligerent and anti-Pakistan rhetoric, as seen in the US/Western press and by Western commentators, is not even seen in India'.

Before accusing Pakistanis of 'belligerent rhetoric', fix your own media and your own anti-Pakistan public opinion first.

We live our rhetoric, just as you live in America lavishly with free speech to say things you :

A) CHOOSE NOT TO KNOW ABOUT these things that you must study into being a Pakistani and a stalwart patriotic one at that

B). Defend the conspirators at large

C). Add confusion to poor souls who know not

 

[Nagraj]

from conciously looking away civilians government is now forced to look away.
let's admit it what can zardari/ pm of pakistan do if army decides to do something.
it has been aptly said countries have army but pakistani army has a country.

It sounds like a case of Pakistani officials refusing to consider the possibility that OBL was alive on Pakistani territory - passive support. Jinnah once pulled the same thing, refusing to hear reports about operations in Kashmir, saying, ‘Don’t tell me anything about it. My conscience must be clear.’ Just as the tribes invading Kashmir in '47 knew Jinnah would look the other way, OBL had the same conviction that Pakistani officials would remain blind to his presence.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

ok people are saying that america is not ready to show any proof
chances are very high that american thinks it's useless sharing proof with pakistan.

Does not matter whether America thinks showing evidence is useless or not, providing credible evidence is necessary to establish that US claims are not merely lies and a smear campaign. And there are plenty of Pakistanis who want to know whether there is any accuracy to the allegations and want the GoP to investigate it.

Keeping the evidence, if it exists, hidden, serves no purpose.

If the alleged evidence is not revealed, then that pretty much means there is no evidence, and this is just a bunch of lies and a smear campaign to pressure Pakistan given the latest tensions between the US and Pakistan.

Heavens forbid if Pakistan asks the US to vacate a Pakistani base on Pakistani territory ....

 

[Nagraj]

Does not matter whether America thinks showing evidence is useless or not, providing credible evidence is necessary to establish that US claims are not merely lies and a smear campaign. And there are plenty of Pakistanis who want to know whether there is any accuracy to the allegations and want the GoP to investigate it.

Keeping the evidence, if it exists, hidden, serves no purpose.

If the alleged evidence is not revealed, then that pretty much means there is no evidence, and this is just a bunch of lies and a smear campaign to pressure Pakistan given the latest tensions between the US and Pakistan.

Heavens forbid if Pakistan asks the US to vacate a Pakistani base on Pakistani territory ....

indeed heavens forbid!
but for whom dude????
and osama is already dead.
as for proof , do you think that analyst made up stories to find osama's exact location???

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

We live our rhetoric, just as you live in America lavishly with free speech to say things you :

So you are advocating double standards then - it is perfectly fine for the West to adopt a 'belligerent, poisonous anti-Pakistan rhetoric based on unsubstantiated balderdash', but it is not OK for Pakistanis to call out the US for its smear campaign and criticize it for that, let alone adopt similar rhetoric to the West.

A) CHOOSE NOT TO KNOW ABOUT these things that you must study into being a Pakistani and a stalwart patriotic one at that

Strawman, and an attempt to divert the discussion. It is not I who is 'choosing not to know about these things', it is the US Establishment that is refusing to substantiate its allegations. Why should I believe any of these claims without credible evidence to support them?

 

[Stealth IFV]

Strawman, and an attempt to divert the discussion. It is not I who is 'choosing not to know about these things', it is the US Establishment that is refusing to substantiate its allegations. Why should I believe any of these claims without credible evidence to support them?

You can use all the big words that you learned whilst debating, as well as I. We all know high level intelligence sharing with the general public is a no go area for any government. So your argument dies right here, at this point. I bid thee good day Agnostic and Patriotic Muslim.

 

[Solomon2]

Does not matter whether America thinks showing evidence is useless or not, providing credible evidence is necessary to establish that US claims are not merely lies and a smear campaign.

That happened when the U.S. nabbed OBL in A-bad. Pakistan has exhausted its credibility in the world community. Trashing the U.S. isn't restoring it.

What may help restore it is the Secretary-General's approach, that Pakistan must make it illegal for Pakistani citizens to commit terror against other states. Yes, I know that probably means giving up Pakistani Army control of any Kashmiri insurgency, but the cost to Pakistan alone is not worth the measly results of the past 40 years. The Siachen effort was arguably more successful at riveting Indian attention: cheaper, less damaging to society, disturbingly innovative and daring. The future belongs to regular armies, not state-supported "stateless" actors.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That happened when the U.S. nabbed OBL in A-bad. Pakistan has exhausted its credibility in the world community. Trashing the U.S. isn't restoring it.

No - the US deceived Pakistan by not sharing intelligence it developed on OBL's location despite the fact that Pakistan both provided critical intelligence leading to OBL's location, as well as allowed US intelligence activities to continue in Abbottabad, despite being aware of them before the OBL raid.

Pakistan has established its credibility through its neutralization of the key AQ leaders and members it has neutralized (more than any other nation), that the Western world chooses to ignore than in order to malign Pakistan is a problem the West has to fix.

And as for US credibility, we all know how good that is when the US leadership stands in front of the world in the UN and spews lies about Iraqi WMD's, and manipulates its media to spew the same lies and propaganda to build domestic and international support in favor of military action based on lies.

Now you want us to trust yet more outlandish claims by 'anonymous sources' without any credible evidence to support them.

The US has to provide the evidence to support these allegations - there is no reason for it not to, except that the evidence does not really exist.

What may help restore it is the Secretary-General's approach, that Pakistan must make it illegal for Pakistani citizens to commit terror against other states. Yes, I know that probably means giving up Pakistani Army control of any Kashmiri insurgency, but the cost to Pakistan alone is not worth the measly results of the past 40 years.

Kashmir is not part of the Indian State, for one, and the IA's own statements, as I pointed out earlier, indicate much, much lower insurgent infiltration activity as well as insurgent activity in IaK, so I fail to see any justification for your comment here.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You can use all the big words that you learned whilst debating, as well as I. We all know high level intelligence sharing with the general public is a no go area for any government. So your argument dies right here, at this point. I bid thee good day Agnostic and Patriotic Muslim.

Utterly absurd defence - so we should merely take 'anonymous sources claiming anonymous intelligence' published in the NYT as some sort of Gospel Truth?

Troll somewhere else please. Your desperation at trying to make a fairy tale of an accusation credible without any evidence whatsoever illustrates how intellectually dishonest you can get to malign Pakistan.

Without evidence this is nothing but a pack of lies and a smear campaign.

Capiche?

 

[Stealth IFV]

I have no intention of maligning Pakistan, and my defense is as solid as western steel. I have already clarified and signified the deep remorse I feel in the fact that our relations with Pakistan are down because of the suppression of facts. You are choosing to ignore a simple truth about the way the U.S. military has conducted recent operations. Press leaks are not your local herder or fruit salesman based. They sift through thousands of pieces of crap per hour, I can assure you of that, and verifiable facts do not need to be explicitly implied at every corner, at which you rear your debate-inspired defenses to lash out at ignorant souls. Sorry if that bothers you as an Administrator given your priority and rank, but I am not here as someone with interest at stake in Pakistan or Pakistan's image.

 

[Slides]

Already one bad piece of Western media propaganda has been discounted on this thread. All that remains is empty words and empty threats from certain members about Pakistan. I don't even know why I bother debating this silly topic. You can lead a horse to water...