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I think you have somehow missed that there are 113 chapters of Quran (full of guidance) that follow the first chapter Sura E Fateha. And all those rest of 113 chapters (including the first) are direct speech of ALLAH and no Earthly meager human. The mechanism and source of guidance is there for people who wish to seek it .....

Quran starts with clearly defining WHO is worthy of all praise and WHOSE help is to be sought for guidance, and then right at start of second chapter it informs you what is the best source of guidance

"This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -" 2:2

You can try fitting intellectuals in the scheme per your wishes ........ but for those who understand the simple meanings they will understand ...... Quran answers all the questions and criticism itself .......

O bhai human is not earthly meager. When ALLAH created human, ALLAH taught him everything. As it comes in the holy Quran:

"Allah taught Adam all the names of everything, then He showed them to the angels and said: "Tell Me the names of these if you are truthful." They (angels) said: "Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except what You have taught us. Verily, it is You, the All-Knower, the All-Wise."

That was the first face to face teaching from ALLAH to human. I believe this verse not because it is in the holy Quran but because Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him told this.

So take this first teaching as factory setting, not to be changed. Whatever came afterwards through the medium of angels from time to time, is subject to be changed, given saying of the Prophet peace be upon him says otherwise.

Furthermore, Surah Al-Fatiha is telling mechanism of seeking guidance, it isn't to read further 113 chapters, but it is to follow the followers of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.
 
O bhai human is not earthly meager. When ALLAH created human, ALLAH taught him everything. As it comes in the holy Quran:

"Allah taught Adam all the names of everything, then He showed them to the angels and said: "Tell Me the names of these if you are truthful." They (angels) said: "Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except what You have taught us. Verily, it is You, the All-Knower, the All-Wise."

That was the first face to face teaching from ALLAH to human. I believe this verse not because it is in the holy Quran but because Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him told this.

So take this first teaching as factory setting, not to be changed. Whatever came afterwards through the medium of angels from time to time, is subject to be changed, given saying of the Prophet peace be upon him says otherwise.

Furthermore, Surah Al-Fatiha is telling mechanism of seeking guidance, it isn't to read further 113 chapters, but it is to follow the followers of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.


Humans need / needed guidance to become humans, nothing in them is inbuilt, I keep posting on this forum that if this was the case we won't see a child left in wilderness become feral ..... that child no matter what should remain human and act human ........ but that is not the case.

And ALLAH told the same human ........ that no doubt you are at loss, you are miserable, you are greedy, you are impatient, you are disobedient, you are Haman, Croesus and a Pharaoh .......... Quran is not subject to any change, its just that one day humans will find out that they were already told all this in Quran.

Quran would remain the same though humans may change ........... Quran will remain supreme no matter what, humans will keep changing their interpretations for their petty motives.

Have you ever seen a human die and laid to rest in his final place? One minute he is strong and the next he is gone ...... that is human .....
 
Humans need / needed guidance to become humans, nothing in them is inbuilt, I keep posting on this forum that if this was the case we won't see a child left in wilderness become feral ..... that child no matter what should remain human and act human ........ but that is not the case.

And ALLAH told the same human ........ that no doubt you are at loss, you are miserable, you are greedy, you are impatient, you are disobedient, you are Haman, Croesus and a Pharaoh .......... Quran is not subject to any change, its just that one day humans will find out that they were already told all this in Quran.

Quran would remain the same though humans may change ........... Quran will remain supreme no matter what, humans will keep changing their interpretations for their petty motives.

Have you ever seen a human die and laid to rest in his final place? One minute he is strong and the next he is gone ...... that is human .....

You are simply challenging the authority of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. We are supposed to take what the Prophet peace be upon him gives us and leave what the Prophet peace be upon him denies.

عقل کو تنقيد سے فرصت نہيں عشق پر اعمال کي بنياد رکھ

Aqal Ko Tanqeed Se Fursat Nahin Ishq Par Amaal Ki Bunyad Rakh

(BANG E DARA - IQBAL RA)


A person feral or what, will be judged by the criteria of the conditions he is living in. Not by your 'cosmopolitan religion' sir.

Faalhamaha Fujuraha wa Taqwaha

A man never go wild unless psycho or under drugs.
 
You are simply challenging the authority of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. We are supposed to take what the Prophet peace be upon him gives us and leave what the Prophet peace be upon him denies.

Messenger Peace be upon him gave us Quran ......... then why are you debating me?

Salik which ever way you take this discussion, I will keep bringing that Quran is supreme over everything and anything. Even the Messenger Peace be upon him, himself has been warned in Quran. So don't try being a Khadim Rizvi with me I hardly get intimidated :)

A person feral or what, will be judged by the criteria of the conditions he is living in. Not by your 'cosmopolitan religion' sir.

Then accept that there is not a thing such as "Destined fate"as the books of hear say wish you to believe in it, accept that its an addition by books of hear say to five prerequisites (Per Quran) for being a Muslim ..........
 
Messenger Peace be upon him gave us Quran ......... then why are you debating me?

Salik which ever way you take this discussion, I will keep bringing that Quran is supreme over everything and anything. Even the Messenger Peace be upon him, himself has been warned in Quran. So don't try being a Khadim Rizvi with me I hardly get intimidated :)



Then accept that there is not a thing such as "Destined fate"as the books of hear say wish you to believe in it, accept that its an addition by books of hear say to five prerequisites (Per Quran) for being a Muslim ..........

Messenger peace be upon him, himself has been warned in holy Quran, so what? It doesn't take the authority back. A prophet without full authority is not a prophet. That is a BASIC rule.

You wanted human prophet walking on the ground or dajjal prophet flying in the air??
 
Messenger peace be upon him, himself has been warned in holy Quran, so what? It doesn't take the authority back. A prophet without full authority is not a prophet. That is a BASIC rule.

You wanted human prophet walking on the ground or dajjal prophet flying in the air??

Muhammad Peace be upon him is a Messenger Prophet and not a Prophet.

I don't want anything but you to accept Quran's supremacy over all other religious books .... that's it.
 
Muhammad Peace be upon him is a Messenger Prophet and not a Prophet.

I don't want anything but you to accept Quran's supremacy over all other religious books .... that's it.

OK. Messenger Prophet.

The holy Quran is supreme of course over all other religious Books.

How can you alienate the holy Quran from its own prophet and prophet's sayings whether compiled in book form or not. It doesn't make any sense.
 
How can you alienate the holy Quran from its own prophet and prophet's sayings whether compiled in book form or not. It doesn't make any sense.

Now we are getting closer to a common understanding of the matter ............

Quran is divine (no human involvement in constructing its message and scheme), which remains the same as it was during Messenger's (Peace be upon him) last days on this Earth. Completely conveyed and documented. There is no doubt about its completeness and there is nothing to prove that it has been altered / changed. We all Muslims believe Quran to be direct speech from ALLAH. Nobody narrates it, nor it is based on traditions, nor it was gathered by visiting different people and asking them if they have any verse available with them (only). Quran's primary message is to guide humanity to the truth and its primary purpose is welfare and betterment of humanity, to guide humans to become humans and live together in peace, united.

Traditions / History on the other hand were gathered / written by ordinary people who lived on this Earth centuries after Messenger's (Peace be upon him) departure from this world. This task was carried out by some people (The Imams) on their own, no state requested them to do so, they may have carried out this laborious task out of their good hearts (may be). So six people (sunni books) born in Iran of that time conducted this search on their own. They went to different regions and met different people and asked them if they remembered any saying of Messenger (Peace be upon him), there was no written source document to refer to ...... that is the reason that traditions normally start with wording (Messenger said so) and end with wordings (Messenger may have said so). Bukhari gathered some 700,000 traditions and then on his own discretion he selected some 2000 plus traditions as most reasonable ones to believe that Messenger may have said so ........... no state involvement again. If you read you will find out that the First two caliphs burnt their own written documents and that with people which had Messenger's sayings. Anyways the problem started with rampant propagation of these traditions during the times of intrigues .......... so much so that they challenged the supremacy of Quran and made it common belief that Quran cannot be interpreted without these traditions ...... the true Islam was attacked and sectarianism was promoted, a parallel religion was constructed and people were slowly and effectively made to believe that not believing in these traditions, or questioning these traditions renders one out of the ambit of Islam. What happened after that is we can all see what is happening to the Muslim world. People like me don't say that you shouldn't consult / refer to these traditions, what we want is thorough scrutiny of these traditions and repealing of these traditions in light of Quran, any tradition that promotes sectarianism, promotes division, insults companions of Messenger (Peace be upon him), His wives and associates insulting, derogatory traditions to Messenger (Peace be upon him) ..... are not true and are contradictory to Quran. You can yourself open book of Bukhari and read these traditions, give them a critical reading and see for yourself if you agree with half of them. That is all ......... we are not asking to change Islam, we are not asking to change anyone's faith .......... we are only asking to revive the original Islam, Quran's Islam.
 
Now we are getting closer to a common understanding of the matter ............

Quran is divine (no human involvement in constructing its message and scheme), which remains the same as it was during Messenger's (Peace be upon him) last days on this Earth. Completely conveyed and documented. There is no doubt about its completeness and there is nothing to prove that it has been altered / changed. We all Muslims believe Quran to be direct speech from ALLAH. Nobody narrates it, nor it is based on traditions, nor it was gathered by visiting different people and asking them if they have any verse available with them (only). Quran's primary message is to guide humanity to the truth and its primary purpose is welfare and betterment of humanity, to guide humans to become humans and live together in peace, united.

Traditions / History on the other hand were gathered / written by ordinary people who lived on this Earth centuries after Messenger's (Peace be upon him) departure from this world. This task was carried out by some people (The Imams) on their own, no state requested them to do so, they may have carried out this laborious task out of their good hearts (may be). So six people (sunni books) born in Iran of that time conducted this search on their own. They went to different regions and met different people and asked them if they remembered any saying of Messenger (Peace be upon him), there was no written source document to refer to ...... that is the reason that traditions normally start with wording (Messenger said so) and end with wordings (Messenger may have said so). Bukhari gathered some 700,000 traditions and then on his own discretion he selected some 2000 plus traditions as most reasonable ones to believe that Messenger may have said so ........... no state involvement again. If you read you will find out that the First two caliphs burnt their own written documents and that with people which had Messenger's sayings. Anyways the problem started with rampant propagation of these traditions during the times of intrigues .......... so much so that they challenged the supremacy of Quran and made it common belief that Quran cannot be interpreted without these traditions ...... the true Islam was attacked and sectarianism was promoted, a parallel religion was constructed and people were slowly and effectively made to believe that not believing in these traditions, or questioning these traditions renders one out of the ambit of Islam. What happened after that is we can all see what is happening to the Muslim world. People like me don't say that you shouldn't consult / refer to these traditions, what we want is thorough scrutiny of these traditions and repealing of these traditions in light of Quran, any tradition that promotes sectarianism, promotes division, insults companions of Messenger (Peace be upon him), His wives and associates insulting, derogatory traditions to Messenger (Peace be upon him) ..... are not true and are contradictory to Quran. You can yourself open book of Bukhari and read these traditions, give them a critical reading and see for yourself if you agree with half of them. That is all ......... we are not asking to change Islam, we are not asking to change anyone's faith .......... we are only asking to revive the original Islam, Quran's Islam.

How easily you switch from divine to ordinary human. If a man says it's the Quran then it is divine, direct speech of God otherwise just a simple saying from the same human.

Look, I am a human, I need human for guidance. Hence priority to human. Who could be better human than the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, himself. The six Imams did the hard work for me and gathered the teachings and sayings of the Prophet peace be upon him.

You please do a job, remove the verse from the holy Quran in which it is said to follow the holy Prophet because that verse is no longer actable. Otherwise commit suicide because that is the only way to get out of this loop.
 
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