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Pakistan will soon get J10

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J-10 will certainly change the game for PAF, IAF already loosing strength currently IAF allocated only 2 squadrons for China and even if India deploy 70% Rafales on Pak border one way or the other India is nanga from one border and in these circumstances 70 J-10B is big strength for PAF.
 
The problem with his or several Pakistani / Chinese posts in this thread it, that people often see things only one sided and ignore the rest, but there are always 2 sides of the medal that we have to look at!

Realistically and based on J10A / Rafale F3 specs and capabilities, J10 is inferior as a fighter. The B version will be better, but so will the F3+ that India wants as well. But for each Rafale F3+ IAF buys, PLAAF can buy 2 x J10Bs because of the cost difference, that means even if it's technically inferior in a 1 on 1 comparison, the numbers will equalise that to some extend. So J10B in higher numbers will be a capable threat to IAF from PLAAFs side (imo the biggest 4.5 gen threat, while it doesn't add anything to the differences between PAF and IAF.

PAF will have the technically inferior fighter and in low numbers, compared mainly to MKI and only a few Rafale squads. However, the same one sided point of view is of course available at my fellow countrymen too, that still look only at some inferior techs of PAF, while not seeing that PAF has dramatically improved and closed the gap that it had in 1999. JF 17 is a propper 4th gen multi role fighter and inducted at PAFs base in good numbers, with AWACS support, deep strike or SEAD capabilities and will not only be cheap, but very useful in war times as well.

Just cuz A > B

Does not automatically mean

A (upgraded) > B (upgraded)

Frankly we have had enough surprises already so we should expect new surprises to follow....

- Every body from experts to fanboys (anti chinese or what ever u call em / p.s nothing against fanboys cuz im a part of u guys.LOL!) said that there is no way China could ever produce something like a 5th generation before 2015...They proved it wrong (they have other 5th gen programs like (J-2X / J-19 or whatever the names are) besides the J-20.

-So called paper plane repeatedly beats F-16A/B and then is branded as a game changer for PAF (JF-17)

-J-10 beats J-11's and all.


So most respectfully sir you should not just based on this is upgraded and this is upgraded too and the rafale is automatically superior...you should also take the progress of Chinese development in to account...


Anyways if PAF gets 58 J-10B's (amongst the last info release of J-10's by Sir Pshamim) it wont just give PAF a great platform...

Consider JF-17 Block I/ II along with MLU upgraded F-16's and F-16 Block 50's that will accompany them ... and also add the force multipliers....It will reshape the entire PAF which could change its strategy from completely defensive to moderate offensive.....

Then the element of new weaponry like Pl-21's etc that might be available by the time J-10B is received by PAF...

IM NOT SAYING PAF WILL BE STRONGER THAN IAF AS IT ALSO IS INDUCTING NEW EQUIPMENT.... IM JUST MAKING THE POINT THAT PAF WILL BY FAAAR HAVE A BETTER CHANCE THAN WITH A FLEET 5-10 YEARS IT HAD BEFORE EVEN WITH THE UPGRADES IN IAF....
 
J10 discussions between PDF members themselves keep varying from

One xtreme of 150 to the other xtreme PAF have not ordered any until they have seen FC20 in its full glory.

Western aviation magazines have suggested a intial order of 40 planes based on PAF financial restrictions and PLAAF ability to supply,,, but even this is not concrete.
 
So most respectfully sir you should not just based on this is upgraded and this is upgraded too and the rafale is automatically superior...you should also take the progress of Chinese development in to account...

I didn't! I pointed out that the current Rafale base is already better than the current J10, so they have to upgrade the J10 to be as capable as the current Rafale first, but by then the Rafale will also be upgraded and goes ahead again.
Also, the progress in Chinas general development capability can make the radar possibly better than expected, but not the fighter as a whole, because the baseline J10 design and layout will remain the same. So there are limitations on how far it can be upgraded and J10B would need several improvements to be as capable as Rafale even today.

The 5th gen fighter point btw is highly debatable, because the presence of J20 distracts a bit from the fact that no AESA radar is developed for any of their fighters yet, that their engine developments have problems too, that no SC capable engine nor TVC were developed so far. Things that even modern 4.5 gen fighters have and that all 5th gen fighter developments apart from the F35 will have too. I would be more impressed by Chinas capabilities, if J10B comes with reduced RCS and weight, improved thrust and payload, CFTs, SC and TVC features, because that would show that they really reached a comparable level as other countries. A fighter which design is mainly taken from Russian and US designs and has so far didn't proven any other NG capability doesn't. That's why there is still the talk about procuring additional Russian fighter engines, Su 35, or even J20 beeing a tech demonstrator when the new engines and radars will be available. When you look at innovations, even the infos we have about the T50 prototype impresses more (different AESA radars, SC from the start, LEVCONs, possibly the highest flight performance specs from all 5th gen fighters...) or?

However, that's a different issue and we simply will have to wait and see how comparable to modern 4.5 gen fighters it will be at the end. Would have loved to see if India would have gone with a medium class, single engine, delta canards development instead of LCA, it would have formed a great hi / lo mix with MKI and FGFA.

J10 discussions between PDF members themselves keep varying from

One xtreme of 150 to the other xtreme PAF have not ordered any until they have seen FC20 in its full glory.

Western aviation magazines have suggested a intial order of 40 planes based on PAF financial restrictions and PLAAF ability to supply,,, but even this is not concrete.

Officially from PAF it is still at 36 as far as I read in the J10 section, but there are speculations abou more. Imo that depends only on the improvement of JF 17, if it's close to what J10B offers, PAF should prefer the indigenous fighter.
 
Officialy initial order is 36 may eventually increase from 36 to 150
 
J10 discussions between PDF members themselves keep varying from

One xtreme of 150 to the other xtreme PAF have not ordered any until they have seen FC20 in its full glory.

Western aviation magazines have suggested a intial order of 40 planes based on PAF financial restrictions and PLAAF ability to supply,,, but even this is not concrete.

that is right

the numbers being discussed here are from air force enthusiasts and at best are gestimations.
depending on the types of Governments in Pakistan and United states, we varied in our requirement for the number of F-16s to Mirage 2000s (during Benazir's PPP era).

the financial restrictions (as you put it) have their role to play but with China we have softer loan options. when talking numbers of J-19 then think JF-17 and F-16s in the mix too and future trends (geopolitical and threat perceptions)
 
Hi, this articles seems to indicate the J-10 purchase will be delayed due to monetary issues...

Pakistan Budget Up for Army, Air Force; Down for Navy | Defense News | defensenews.com


Pakistan Budget Up for Army, Air Force; Down for Navy
Jun. 6, 2012 - 11:39AM | By Usman ANSARI

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan’s new defense budget increases funding for the Army and Air Force and slightly decreases it for the Navy, but challenging economic conditions put near-term procurements in doubt.

The fiscal 2012-2013 defense budget, in current U.S. dollars, allocates $2.8 billion to the Army, an increase of $128 million; $1.2 billion for the Air Force, an increase of $64 million; and $562 million to the Navy, a $1.4 million decrease from the previous year.

The defense budget does not, however, usually include procurement funding and is comprised mainly of wages and running costs with increases fueled by ongoing counterinsurgency efforts.

Analyst and former fighter pilot Kaiser Tufail expects no new procurements in the near future.

“There is no doubt that the government is facing a very serious funding issue, and modernization programs of all three services are on the back burner,” he said.

“Although I’d like to keep politics aside, I suspect the government is keeping quite a bit of money to come up with various gimmicks just prior to the elections as well as during [vote buying], so defense matters are secondary for the time being,” he added.

One high-profile Air Force procurement project, the FC-20, a Pakistani-specific variant of the Chinese Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon multirole fighter, may be adversely affected by the poor economic and political climate, he said.
Tufail said proceeding with this procurement is “far-fetched for the present.”


He also criticized money he says is being wasted on what he considers “ill-conceived projects and operations.” As examples, he lists “sustaining Jacobabad Base,” which he said is being largely resupplied by air, has its entire power supply generated on site and is fully air conditioned, the ongoing Siachen operations, expensive staff cars, and VIP transport jets.

“There seems to be no oversight of the Ministry of Defence or any other watchdog body,” he said.

There are predictions that the defense budget will continue to incrementally grow, however, some analysts say these predictions are not realistic.

“I don’t think we can increase the budget incrementally since the economy is not in such good shape. The largest part of the budget is, of course, spent on salaries and the rest on infrastructure and operations,” Tufail said.

“There is nothing in Pakistan’s economic forecast that makes it feasible for an annual increment in line with the present one. But the fact is that, with the withholding of U.S. military aid, the money has to come from somewhere,” said former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley.

He also highlighted the effect of escalating operating costs.

“I don’t think the world at large quite realizes what extra operating costs the Army is having to bear, with over 150,000 Army and [Frontier Constabulary] troops deployed in the border regions — all because of the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan. The costs of fuel and rations, alone, are staggering. Then there’s the expensive matter of extra sorties by [ground attack fighters] and gunships. Not just the ammunition and ordnance, but the fuel and maintenance bills. People don’t realize what the Afghan war is costing Pakistan.”
 
Nishan




THAT 440 new FIGHTERS in 10 YEARS ....

No country in the world can induct 440 new fighters in 10 years
certainly not any developing nation

Try look at the PACE of induction the last 10 years or even 5 years to see HOW long these things can take.

To Move THUNDER from block 1 to block 3 with improved compsite build,,, new avionics ,, new radar even new engine will take hundreds of millions of dollars and years of TEST FLYING...

PAF current induction rate of mk1 JFT is 10 per year.

You are suggesting tripling this. AND have given no thought to future development timscale, cost OF INDUCTION and TESTING.

Most countries including USA are scaling back their fighter induction programmes due to MASSIVE GLOBAL RECESSION.

I think you may have been optimistic with 440 fighters.#



Sir G..... we have already got 100 JF-17 out of those 440...... lol..... now u calculate the rest of the calculation.......hahahhaa.

And pls dont ask me the link and source.

:pakistan: :yahoo: And pls dont ask me the link and source.
 
s.com/article/20120606/DEFREG03/306060006/Pakistan-Budget-Up-Army-Air-Force-59-Down-Navy?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE]Pakistan Budget Up for Army, Air Force; Down for Navy | Defense News | defensenews.com[/url]



One high-profile Air Force procurement project, the FC-20, a Pakistani-specific variant of the Chinese Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon multirole fighter, may be adversely affected by the poor economic and political climate, he said.
Tufail said proceeding with this procurement is “far-fetched for the present.”
i was going to post it any ways good u posted it
WELL nothing more to debate here
 
Now we might be able to produce 70 FC-20(J-10BS) and then another 70 J-10CS.
 
Defence budget is up than last year FC-20 will not affect the project , since Jf17 block 2 is coming i dont think we need fc-20 in so hurry.
 
One high-profile Air Force procurement project, the FC-20, a Pakistani-specific variant of the Chinese Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon multirole fighter, may be adversely affected by the poor economic and political climate, he said.
Tufail said proceeding with this procurement is “far-fetched for the present.”

What polititcal problems are there?
 
By Usman ANSARI

sorry but this guy is 'crap**a!

One high-profile Air Force procurement project, the FC-20, a Pakistani-specific variant of the Chinese Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon multirole fighter, may be adversely affected by the poor economic and political climate, he said.
Tufail said proceeding with this procurement is “far-fetched for the present.”


the payment for the J-10 system will not be made in one year, but will be spread over 'several' years to mitigate the impact on the PAF budget. the budget for PAF is going up for 2012-13 to cater for the induction of the 2nd tranche of JFT-blk-2 (50 a/c).
 
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