Pakistan-Turkey 4 Milgem Ada Class Corvettes Contract - Construction started

[arslank03]

Pakistan spent 1 billion dollars on four 054AP, and 1.5 billion dollars on four Babur.

That 1.5 billion dollars is better to buying six 054AP or two 052DL…

no it isnt. Pakistan didnt just buy babur, it bought ALL of the associated IP. The design effectively belongs to us alongside the Turks now.

 

[time pass]

Pakistan spent 1 billion dollars on four 054AP, and 1.5 billion dollars on four Babur.

That 1.5 billion dollars is better to buying six 054AP or two 052DL…

Indeed, with six 054A/Ps, PN will undoubtedly be in a stronger position by having 10 Tughril class (054A/Ps) rather 4 + 4 of 054A/Ps & Milgem.

However, I'm curious as to why the price of the 04 Milgem (Babur) class is so high, if your claim is right.

 

[arslank03]

Indeed, with six 054A/Ps, PN will undoubtedly be in a stronger position by having 10 Tughril class (054A/Ps) rather 4 + 4 of 054A/Ps & Milgem.

However, I'm curious as to why the price of the 04 Milgem (Babur) class is so high, if your claim is right.

because 054a's were subsidized, Babur was a FULL transfer of tech and IP rights!!!!

Also, Tughrils are the last gen tech, not very well suited to swarm attacks, Babur OTOH will be able to defend itself way better in the case of a swarm, the only limitation is the number of missiles onboard. If both had 32 the Babur class would be of a SIGNIFICANT improvement in terms of its AAW cap vs the Tughril, but even without the 1:1 missile count, the Babur is a qualitative improvement over the tughril.

 

[Tank131]

Pakistan spent 1 billion dollars on four 054AP, and 1.5 billion dollars on four Babur.

That 1.5 billion dollars is better to buying six 054AP or two 052DL…

Indeed, with six 054A/Ps, PN will undoubtedly be in a stronger position by having 10 Tughril class (054A/Ps) rather 4 + 4 of 054A/Ps & Milgem.

However, I'm curious as to why the price of the 04 Milgem (Babur) class is so high, if your claim is right.

As @arslank03 pointed out, the two deals are not equivalent. Yes the cost for 4 054AP was less than Baburs, but Babus are frankly a more forward looking purchase. While the 054AP will be the most capable ships in PN, that will likely not be a long term position. The PN not only acquired 4 light frigates (refusing to call them heavy corvettes given they are the same size as F-22P), they also acquired with it access to European modern SAM which is much superior to the currently available version of HQ-16. Will that change if HQ-FE becomes available, maybe, but that is not the case at this time. THey also, during that agreement, cemented a relationship with a major european defense conglomerate in leonardo (whose subsidary, they have had long relationships with as well - Selex/FIAR). That is a political boon for Pakistan as if they provide SAMs and have offered to provide radars for JF-17 in the past, there are other avenues of cooperation likely available, helping to diversify the defense partners Pakistan has (this is not a small deal for a country in Pakistan's position).

To that end, Pakistan has used this deal, along with acquisition of TB-2 and Ackinci UAV, A-90B submarine upgrades and others, to cement a strategic partnership with Turkey, who is now seeking Pakistani involvment in their FGFA (KAAN), and provided not only the TOT to Pakistan to build Babur's in Pakistan, BUT also provided the IP to the Ada program so that Pakistan can modify the design (leading to the creation the Jinnah Class Frigate project)) and market the idea if they so choose. This effectively simulates what China did for Pakistan Airforce with JF-17.

So by spending the extra 500M pakistan cemented a strategic partnership with Turkey, giving another very reliable parterner (in addition to China) to Pakistan, who is desperately short on strategic partners and reliable allies. It allows for an additional source of high end defense equipment with strong potential for joint programs/cooperation (like it has with China). It further deepens its defense ties with Italy, giving an additional reliable defense partner. AND acquired the design for a modern workhorse for PN while providing jobs to Pakistani workers and engineers at KSEW.

 

[dBSPL]

IMO, all these are (I mean all of what we know and what we don't know) not a monetary relationship. Because in this type of relationship there are actually exchanges that you cannot buy with money. From on both sides. In fact, it is not an intergovernmental relationship at all. It is an inter-state relationship, which have many unique features.

Even if we consider it only in the context of naval forces: Some things that come to my mind quickly... Bringing the PNS Moawin into the Pakistani Navy, which is already the PN's flagship and used as a command and control ship by the top command in various exercises.

Transfer of all technical know-how to PN through Karachi shipyard technical consultation, technical personnel training programs, PN-Milgem program.

Designing an indigenous combat platform for the PN (Babur class) with its industrial rights and preparation for the indigenous frigate program (Jinnah class concept) to be carried out with PN capabilities and technical capabilities. These ships can be sold to third countries if desired. Two of the Babur class ships were built directly at the Karachi shipyard, where Pakistani suppliers played a crucial role. Now Pakistan will start to build on these capabilities step by step, inshallah.

Also need to underline, the entire configuration of the ships is not imposed in fixed packages, but the configuration activities are carried out by the Pakistani naval staff in accordance with the needs of the Pakistani navy. All appropriate Pakistani defense industry weapon systems and navionics will be used on these ships. I am not only talking about the construction activities of the ships, these ships will have a life cycle of about 40-50 years and PN will always be working on these ships during this period.

Another important work is under sea. Modernization of Pakistan Navy's Agosta 90B submarines. "System-to-system" and "platform-to-system" integration of various systems to be provided by various local and third party companies, and modification of the most critical structure of the submarine, the pressure resistant hull (resistant hull). The cooperation on the submarine is also going to be very long lasting, be patient for a few years, good developments are on the way.

I won't go into the details of cooperation in smaller classes of ships, technical cooperation between navies, but if you look at the general framework, the naval forces are one of the main area where the alliance between Turkiye and Pakistan has deepened. In this sense, we are proud to be one of the most important solution partner countries of the Pakistani navy together with China. Obviously, what is important for me and many other Turkish members here is to see a stronger and more deterrent Pakistani navy. We feel the same joy at the launch or the acceptance ceremony of a system that does not involve any cooperation with Turkiye. May Allah protect all Pakistani sailors and make them victorious. Our focus is on our geopolitical future, together.

 

[MH.Yang]

As @arslank03 pointed out, the two deals are not equivalent. Yes the cost for 4 054AP was less than Baburs, but Babus are frankly a more forward looking purchase. While the 054AP will be the most capable ships in PN, that will likely not be a long term position. The PN not only acquired 4 light frigates (refusing to call them heavy corvettes given they are the same size as F-22P), they also acquired with it access to European modern SAM which is much superior to the currently available version of HQ-16. Will that change if HQ-FE becomes available, maybe, but that is not the case at this time. THey also, during that agreement, cemented a relationship with a major european defense conglomerate in leonardo (whose subsidary, they have had long relationships with as well - Selex/FIAR). That is a political boon for Pakistan as if they provide SAMs and have offered to provide radars for JF-17 in the past, there are other avenues of cooperation likely available, helping to diversify the defense partners Pakistan has (this is not a small deal for a country in Pakistan's position).

To that end, Pakistan has used this deal, along with acquisition of TB-2 and Ackinci UAV, A-90B submarine upgrades and others, to cement a strategic partnership with Turkey, who is now seeking Pakistani involvment in their FGFA (KAAN), and provided not only the TOT to Pakistan to build Babur's in Pakistan, BUT also provided the IP to the Ada program so that Pakistan can modify the design (leading to the creation the Jinnah Class Frigate project)) and market the idea if they so choose. This effectively simulates what China did for Pakistan Airforce with JF-17.

So by spending the extra 500M pakistan cemented a strategic partnership with Turkey, giving another very reliable parterner (in addition to China) to Pakistan, who is desperately short on strategic partners and reliable allies. It allows for an additional source of high end defense equipment with strong potential for joint programs/cooperation (like it has with China). It further deepens its defense ties with Italy, giving an additional reliable defense partner. AND acquired the design for a modern workhorse for PN while providing jobs to Pakistani workers and engineers at KSEW.

because 054a's were subsidized, Babur was a FULL transfer of tech and IP rights!!!!

Also, Tughrils are the last gen tech, not very well suited to swarm attacks, Babur OTOH will be able to defend itself way better in the case of a swarm, the only limitation is the number of missiles onboard. If both had 32 the Babur class would be of a SIGNIFICANT improvement in terms of its AAW cap vs the Tughril, but even without the 1:1 missile count, the Babur is a qualitative improvement over the tughril.

1, The Babur use the HHQ16 too, and even if the Babur can be upgraded to a European SAM in the future, it is not as good as the upgraded version of the HHQ16, the HHQ16EF. The HHQ16EF has a range of 160 kilometers, and it can lock on to 12 targets at the same time, and attack 8 targets at the same time.
The 054A has also reserved space for radar upgrades.The upgraded version of the 054A will eliminate the 4 AJK-16 irradiation radar, replaced by four new small plate phased array radar, respectively, installed on the bridge and hangar rear above, and the hull axis to form an X-type layout, able to realize the 360 ° target detection task.

2, As far as I know Karachi Shipyard had imported the technology to build the F22P (053H3) from China and it was able to build the F22P on its own. wouldn't it be more convenient to continue to acquire the technology for the next model 054A? An order for ten 054AP would certainly allow for technology transfer.
Excluding subsystems, the Babur isn't much of an improvement over the F22P (053H3). It's time for Karachi Shipyard to build bigger warships.
Ten 054AP with HHQ16EF and phased array radar, 320 VLS, and a Karachi shipyard that can produce 054AP. It is enough to counter the Indian Navy.

 

[arslank03]

1, The Babur use the HHQ16 too, and even if the Babur can be upgraded to a European SAM in the future, it is not as good as the upgraded version of the HHQ16, the HHQ16EF. The HHQ16EF has a range of 160 kilometers, and it can lock on to 12 targets at the same time, and attack 8 targets at the same time.
The 054A has also reserved space for radar upgrades.The upgraded version of the 054A will eliminate the 4 AJK-16 irradiation radar, replaced by four new small plate phased array radar, respectively, installed on the bridge and hangar rear above, and the hull axis to form an X-type layout, able to realize the 360 ° target detection task.
View attachment 943952

2, As far as I know Karachi Shipyard had imported the technology to build the F22P (053H3) from China and it was able to build the F22P on its own. wouldn't it be more convenient to continue to acquire the technology for the next model 054A? An order for ten 054AP would certainly allow for technology transfer.
Excluding subsystems, the Babur isn't much of an improvement over the F22P (053H3). It's time for Karachi Shipyard to build bigger warships.
Ten 054AP with HHQ16EF and phased array radar, 320 VLS, and a Karachi shipyard that can produce 054AP. It is enough to counter the Indian Navy.

The Babur uses CAMM-ER. PN has standardized on the CAMM-ER and will use it on the F22P also.

KSEW has the tech to build the F22P hulls, thats not the same as having IP rights for the design. Actually, the babur IS quite the upgrade over the F22P. Infact, im sure you've read the reports from the RTN regarding the poor quality of water-tight locks and the sad state of the designs fire suppression systems, also that the ships had to be re wired due to a fault, they even went as far to say that the ships would be a total loss in case of hull breach.

The PN has the choice to do whatever they please with the design of the babur and jinnah class, whether it be to stretch it further, use it as the basis for a new design or whatever else it may be. This step skipped decades of development and provided a new basis for the PN to begin from. Aside from that, surface to surface the PN will never be able to compare to the IN, thats where the sub fleet plays its role.

 

[Princeps Senatus]

1, The Babur use the HHQ16 too, and even if the Babur can be upgraded to a European SAM in the future, it is not as good as the upgraded version of the HHQ16, the HHQ16EF. The HHQ16EF has a range of 160 kilometers, and it can lock on to 12 targets at the same time, and attack 8 targets at the same time.
The 054A has also reserved space for radar upgrades.The upgraded version of the 054A will eliminate the 4 AJK-16 irradiation radar, replaced by four new small plate phased array radar, respectively, installed on the bridge and hangar rear above, and the hull axis to form an X-type layout, able to realize the 360 ° target detection task.
View attachment 943952

2, As far as I know Karachi Shipyard had imported the technology to build the F22P (053H3) from China and it was able to build the F22P on its own. wouldn't it be more convenient to continue to acquire the technology for the next model 054A? An order for ten 054AP would certainly allow for technology transfer.
Excluding subsystems, the Babur isn't much of an improvement over the F22P (053H3). It's time for Karachi Shipyard to build bigger warships.
Ten 054AP with HHQ16EF and phased array radar, 320 VLS, and a Karachi shipyard that can produce 054AP. It is enough to counter the Indian Navy.

1. Babur uses CAMM-ER not HHQ-16

2. HQ-16FE is a land based SAM, there is no indication of even a HHQ-16B let alone a HHQ-16F

 

[MH.Yang]

1. Babur uses CAMM-ER not HHQ-16

2. HQ-16FE is a land based SAM, there is no indication of even a HHQ-16B let alone a HHQ-16F

China's three 054As (Warships No 522, No 524, and No 537) are being upgraded to the 054AG. the 054AG will be retrofitted with phased-array radar and the HHQ16EF.

 

[dilpakistani]

Pakistan spent 1 billion dollars on four 054AP, and 1.5 billion dollars on four Babur.

That 1.5 billion dollars is better to buying six 054AP or two 052DL…

true...

 

[Kejo]

true...

Not really.

 

[Tank131]

1, The Babur use the HHQ16 too, and even if the Babur can be upgraded to a European SAM in the future, it is not as good as the upgraded version of the HHQ16, the HHQ16EF. The HHQ16EF has a range of 160 kilometers, and it can lock on to 12 targets at the same time, and attack 8 targets at the same time.
The 054A has also reserved space for radar upgrades.The upgraded version of the 054A will eliminate the 4 AJK-16 irradiation radar, replaced by four new small plate phased array radar, respectively, installed on the bridge and hangar rear above, and the hull axis to form an X-type layout, able to realize the 360 ° target detection task.
View attachment 943952

2, As far as I know Karachi Shipyard had imported the technology to build the F22P (053H3) from China and it was able to build the F22P on its own. wouldn't it be more convenient to continue to acquire the technology for the next model 054A? An order for ten 054AP would certainly allow for technology transfer.
Excluding subsystems, the Babur isn't much of an improvement over the F22P (053H3). It's time for Karachi Shipyard to build bigger warships.
Ten 054AP with HHQ16EF and phased array radar, 320 VLS, and a Karachi shipyard that can produce 054AP. It is enough to counter the Indian Navy.

1. Babur's will use CAMM-ER whose official range is 45km+... The + is key here. Standard CAMM (official range 25km+) has been documented by Janes to be tested out to 60km successfully. That tells me the range of CAMM-ER is probably closer to 80-90km if not more.

2. As i stated HQ-16FE is NOT yet available for PN. It not even in service in PLAN, nor are HQ-16B/C. When they become available, then we can discuss thatbut even if HQ-16EF gets inducted on upgraded 054AG as you state, it will be years before it would be available to PN due to shear number of 054A that would need refit in PLAN. Additionally Baburs have relatively small availability of deck space. Their appears to be room for only 12 cell CAMM-ER launchers (while we were 1ll expecting 16-hopefully will eventually be updated 8 cells of MIDLAS/MDAS) VLS which allows for quad-packing. The CAMM-ER has a very small footprint allowing for 12 SAMS on Baburs. Using HQ-16 would likely only allow for 8 missiles at most.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Pakistan spent 1 billion dollars on four 054AP, and 1.5 billion dollars on four Babur.​

That 1.5 billion dollars is better to buying six 054AP or two 052DL…

Disagree. The Babur class is superior to the 054A/P imo. 052DL is a separate story when it comes to capabilities, but that would not cover the ToT and all the other things that came along with the Babur project.

054 is not a priority for China, so they do not receive the same sort of attention as their larger destroyers do, for China and the PLAN, it’s a low cost ship that they can make easily in large numbers, it’s actually rather big and overstaffed for the capabilities it offers due to it being somewhat last gen; it does not have the same enhanced use of space and packaging as more modern Chinese naval designs or Babur. What I mean to say is, it’s not as future proof as the Babur class, for China this is not a problem at all, 054 is the bottom of the pecking order for PLAN, but for PN it matters because these will be their frontline ships.

There’s also other factors to consider, like can we get the same highly subsidized rates for more 054APs or 052DLs as we did the first time?​

China's three 054As (Warships No 522, No 524, and No 537) are being upgraded to the 054AG. the 054AG will be retrofitted with phased-array radar and the HHQ16EF.

View attachment 944020

View attachment 944022

View attachment 944021

This is good to see though, this is the first indication we’ve had of any sort of upgrade for naval HQ16 actually being implemented, before this it had all been rumors, and it will likely find its way to PNs 054s eventually too.

 

[alimobin memon]

1. Babur's will use CAMM-ER whose official range is 45km+... The + is key here. Standard CAMM (official range 25km+) has been documented by Janes to be tested out to 60km successfully. That tells me the range of CAMM-ER is probably closer to 80-90km if not more.

2. As i stated HQ-16FE is NOT yet available for PN. It not even in service in PLAN, nor are HQ-16B/C. When they become available, then we can discuss thatbut even if HQ-16EF gets inducted on upgraded 054AG as you state, it will be years before it would be available to PN due to shear number of 054A that would need refit in PLAN. Additionally Baburs have relatively small availability of deck space. Their appears to be room for only 12 cell CAMM-ER launchers (while we were 1ll expecting 16-hopefully will eventually be updated 8 cells of MIDLAS/MDAS) VLS which allows for quad-packing. The CAMM-ER has a very small footprint allowing for 12 SAMS on Baburs. Using HQ-16 would likely only allow for 8 missiles at most.

Most probably same Cell and design will support New HQ16 variants by only upgrading software and minimal hardware changes. I don't think it will take years PN can equip them parallel to PLAN. There are multiple examples of that happening especially with CM 400 AKG or p282 missile which proly is chinese missile with home assembly.

 

[HRK]

Standard CAMM (official range 25km+) has been documented by Janes to be tested out to 60km successfully

Would please recheck as far as I remember it was successfully tested for 45 KM ... Though i agree CAMM-ER
official range is 45 KM