Pakistan To Participate In Turkey’s TFX Next-Gen Fighter Aircraft Program

[maximuswarrior]

To comments regarding lack of experience in building fighter jets on Turkish side, they are doing it in partnership with BAE Systems. It will work and it will work damn good too.

With regard to Pakistans involvement, Turkey already has the ability to fully fund this project on its own and also already has access to the best tech available. Inviting Pakistan looks more towards taking Pakistan with them on their journey to success. Like brothers do for each other.

Exactly. Turkey is participating in the F-35 project and will learn a lot which will be applied to its domestic projects. I think that Pakistan should definitely join the project. We have also setup JF-17 production assemblies and have learnt a thing or two from our brother China. We should contribute any way we can. This is a win win. Of course PAF is also going to get their hands on a Chinese 5th gen fighter.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Claiming that Turkey can build a fifth generation platform is like claiming Israel can do the same.
Turkey has advanced weaponry, but no where near fifth generation platforms.
secondly, developing of such aircraft is costly, 25 billion USD would be the cheapest estimate you'll get, considering Turkey didn't designed a good modern aircraft, let alone stealthy.
Thirdly, if Turkey would be able to build such aircraft, how would pakistan support it? Pakistan industries are no where near advanced as Russia, China, US, EU or any other big military exporters and it posses no strong economy to support or purchase such aircrafts.
For summary, Pakistan's only option is buying China's jets, as I see no future for stealth fight jets purchase from the U.S, and still, it'll take alot of money, money that Pakistan would likely need to other branches of the military.

This is not a troll reply, I might not be a Pakistani, but I'm realistic

I think we should avoid speaking in broad strokes. No one here is suggesting that Turkey had planned or is planning to develop this fighter platform alone. Rather, it is contracting the design and development expertise of BAE and is seeking an off-the-shelf engine to power the jet (potentially EJ200). This isn't an easy task, but are we really going to go around suggesting that Turkey - with its proven experience in managing complex programs (e.g. MILGEM), its ability to fund those programs, its industry's eagerness - and growing portfolio - in subsystems development, etc, is not going to be able to bring the TFX to fruition? Sure, there will is a margin of failure, but let us not ignore the margin of success as well.

If we are going to examine the TFX or any program, then let us actually examine it for what it is in terms of how Turkey is planning to go about it, its resources, its partners, etc.

As for Pakistan and the question of how it can support it. First, no one here is suggesting that Pakistan is in any way an integral prospect to the TFX. Far from it. However, Turkey could very well appreciate the added funding support, and if not that, then additional orders to help distribute the R&D load. Not every JSF partner was a paragon of aviation R&D, but that doesn't mean there weren't any useful JSF partners.

 

[T-123456]

Claiming that Turkey can build a fifth generation platform is like claiming Israel can do the same.

If Israel wanted,it could(Kfir).

Turkey has advanced weaponry, but no where near fifth generation platforms.
secondly, developing of such aircraft is costly, 25 billion USD would be the cheapest estimate you'll get, considering Turkey didn't designed a good modern aircraft, let alone stealthy.

Turkiye is not inventing the wheel.
BAE/SAAB/TAI for design,Eurojet/Rolls-Royce/Aselsan for the engines,Aselsan,Havelsan for radar/sensors/avionics etc.
Financing $2,5 billion a year for 10 years shouldnt be a problem for a country like Turkiye.

Thirdly, if Turkey would be able to build such aircraft, how would pakistan support it?

Turkiye joined the F-35 program,Pakistan can join the TFX program,what would be the problem?

 

[maximuswarrior]

If Israel wanted,it could(Kfir).

Turkiye is not inventing the wheel.
BAE/SAAB/TAI for design,Eurojet/Rolls-Royce/Aselsan for the engines,Aselsan,Havelsan for radar/sensors/avionics etc.
Financing $2,5 billion a year for 10 years shouldnt be a problem for a country like Turkiye.

Turkiye joined the F-35 program,Pakistan can join the TFX program,what would be the problem?

Spot on. Turkey has the know how and resources at its disposal to get the job done. I'm not doubting that for a second.

 

[DavidSling]

If Israel wanted,it could(Kfir).

Turkiye is not inventing the wheel.
BAE/SAAB/TAI for design,Eurojet/Rolls-Royce/Aselsan for the engines,Aselsan,Havelsan for radar/sensors/avionics etc.
Financing $2,5 billion a year for 10 years shouldnt be a problem for a country like Turkiye.

Turkiye joined the F-35 program,Pakistan can join the TFX program,what would be the problem?

Problem is Turkey isn't the U.S and Pakistan isn't best technological partner.
I'd think of inviting some better contributing countries to the program, like, I don't know, Japan, South Korea?

 

[T-123456]

Problem is Turkey isn't the U.S and Pakistan isn't best technological partner.
I'd think of inviting some better contributing countries to the program, like, I don't know, Japan, South Korea?

You dont get it do you?
When the US invited Turkiye to the F-35 program,did that mean that Turkiye had the technology to contribute in any hichtech way to the program?
Allies invite each other to join future military programs,it will reduce costs,further cooperation between allies,send a message,help each other out etc,its a natural thing.
Btw,both Japan and Korea have their own programs,Turkiye wanted to join the Korean program but the Koreans didnt want to share the tech so Turkiye didnt join.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Problem is Turkey isn't the U.S and Pakistan isn't best technological partner.
I'd think of inviting some better contributing countries to the program, like, I don't know, Japan, South Korea?

Why would you assume that Pakistan would be a technology partner and not a scale or funding contributor (like many JSF partners)? Also, Turkey is enlisting the services of BAE for design and development expertise.

 

[DavidSling]

You dont get it do you?
When the US invited Turkiye to the F-35 program,did that mean that Turkiye had the technology to contribute in any hichtech way to the program?
Allies invite each other to join future military programs,it will reduce costs,further cooperation between allies,send a message,help each other out etc,its a natural thing.
Btw,both Japan and Korea have their own programs,Turkiye wanted to join the Korean program but the Koreans didnt want to share the tech so Turkiye didnt join.

Allies help each other, but usually when u invite countries to JV, both countries should contribute to the program, either in the funding or in technology.
The plan is that the F-35 will be produced under license in Turkey by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). TAI is one of the two international suppliers to Northrop Grumman (the other being Terma in Denmark).[178] A Letter of Intent (LOI) was signed between TAI and Northrop Grumman ISS (NGISS) International on 6 February 2007. With the LOI, TAI became the second source for the F-35 center fuselage. The number of center fuselages to be produced by TAI will depend on the number of F-35s Turkey procures and the number of F-35s produced worldwide. On 10 December 2007, TAI was authorized by Northrop Grumman to commence fabricating access doors and composite parts for the first two F-35 production aircraft. These components are used in the F-35 center fuselage, a major section of the aircraft being produced by Northrop Grumman, a principal member of the Lockheed Martin-led F-35 global industry team.[179]

Now, Pakistan doesn't posses the economy or the technology advancement that Turkey would need in development of such advance tech.

Why would you assume that Pakistan would be a technology partner and not a scale or funding contributor (like many JSF partners)? Also, Turkey is enlisting the services of BAE for design and development expertise.

Pakistan is in no place to fund such expensive program

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Allies help each other, but usually when u invite countries to JV, both countries should contribute to the program, either in the funding or in technology.
The plan is that the F-35 will be produced under license in Turkey by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). TAI is one of the two international suppliers to Northrop Grumman (the other being Terma in Denmark).[178] A Letter of Intent (LOI) was signed between TAI and Northrop Grumman ISS (NGISS) International on 6 February 2007. With the LOI, TAI became the second source for the F-35 center fuselage. The number of center fuselages to be produced by TAI will depend on the number of F-35s Turkey procures and the number of F-35s produced worldwide. On 10 December 2007, TAI was authorized by Northrop Grumman to commence fabricating access doors and composite parts for the first two F-35 production aircraft. These components are used in the F-35 center fuselage, a major section of the aircraft being produced by Northrop Grumman, a principal member of the Lockheed Martin-led F-35 global industry team.[179]

Now, Pakistan doesn't posses the economy or the technology advancement that Turkey would need in development of such advance tech.


Pakistan is in no place to fund such expensive program

It has already been stated on numerous occasions that Turkey is enlisting the support of BAE (irrespective of Pakistan) for lead technical support. Are you suggesting that Turkey, with its proven experience in managing complex programs, reasonably sound funding ability, and BAE will not be able to bring this program to fruition?

Secondly, why would you assume that Pakistan would be an indispensable supporter? Not every JSF funding partner was integral to the success of the program. I think 10% in terms of development funding and actual unit acquisition for even Pakistan is plausible.

 

[DavidSling]

It has already been stated on numerous occasions that Turkey is enlisting the support of BAE (irrespective of Pakistan). Secondly, why would you assume that Pakistan would be an indispensable supporter? Not every JSF funding partner was integral to the success of the program. I think 10% in terms of development funding and actual unit acquisition for even Pakistan is plausible.

Again, U.S can allow it, and still F35 had it difficulties, Turkey isn't U.S.
Anyway, I said my opinion, u said urs, I wish u luck and I hope I'm wrong

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Again, U.S can allow it, and still F35 had it difficulties, Turkey isn't U.S.
Anyway, I said my opinion, u said urs, I wish u luck and I hope I'm wrong

Yes but at the end of the day, we have an example of non technically essential partners contributing to a program. In fact, in Asia, we have another with the South Korean KFX whereby Indonesia's PTDI will invest 20% in that program. There is nothing in PTDI's portfolio (which is good from a licensed manufacturing PoV) that KAI doesn't already have, but it was made a partner all the same (in return for funding support).

Let me be clear. I am not saying that Pakistan's participation would be essential. I am not saying that Pakistan will get much out any such partnership either (in terms of critical technology). Pakistan will get what it pays for in the end, but the facts as they are, its participation is a plausible idea. Whether that ends up in Pakistan producing a LED light for the TFX or a wing, who knows.

 

[Darth Vader]

@DavidSling @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

As You Guys Keep repeating How Turkey will be able to pull this off and Reason Behind Pakistan in the project

Bae Is the which will help . Turkey is not inventing Worlds First Plane , years of experience from F16 yes it is 4th generation plane but they have years of hands on experience from repairing to upgrading Than Comes F35
Major part is engine which is coming from third seller
Smaller systems are already in the market or Turkey and Pakistan are already making it or getting it from 3rd sellers EU , China

Now about Pakistan , Pakistan isn't just there for the funds yes every penny helps but you are talking about future as when China did with thunder
Now same is Turkey trying to do what will Pakistan bring in the game
1st access of Chinese systems which are for 5th gen birds , access to future Chinese systems
E.g chendgu close relation with Pac and there next 5th generation bird and Pakistan can pave the way so they can be involved in this or future JV
2nd Pakistans Knowledge of Building a 4th generation capable air craft if You take out Uncle Sam , and Eu how many friends in the world Turkey have which are making 4th generation air crafts on which can really trust
3 Future even if this project doest work it will give Turkey and Pakistans indusrties huge boost and access to different modern systems which will help in future JVs and can start working on other JVs e.g projects for navy and army

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

For china, everything is ok, even if you can get F35, we are happy with your safety. but just don't waste the time ,keep calm and clear,make the right decision.

Thanks...All the best in your developments of fighter jets....

 

[DavidSling]

There seems to be many people here that underestimate the abilities of Pakistan. They are a nuclear armed nation and didn't do that 'buying off the shelf.' How many nations can say the same and on top of that, how many could have achieved it with Pakistan's budget and isolated position. Israel on the other hand have had all the assistance they needed from several nation and their budget is not subject to any limits. This is just one example.

Do not believe for a minute that we are intellectually inferior to any nation. And technologically speaking, one way or another, we get our hands on what is required.

Your do not know the story of Israel nuclear weapons . Israel built it's nuclear program in the 50's , when it had poor economy and weak country. It's way for acquiring the nukes is remarkable.
I don't underestimate Pakistan,but claiming that ur industry and your economy can help in building fifth gen fighter is no sense

 

[Nefarious]

Exactly. Turkey is participating in the F-35 project and will learn a lot which will be applied to its domestic projects. I think that Pakistan should definitely join the project. We have also setup JF-17 production assemblies and have learnt a thing or two from our brother China. We should contribute any way we can. This is a win win. Of course PAF is also going to get their hands on a Chinese 5th gen fighter.

A European standard 5th gen fighter in Pakistani hands will cause excess sweating in a few countries who like to maintain a tech advantage be it in South Asia or even the Middle East...after reading some of the comments above.