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Pakistan To Participate In Turkey’s TFX Next-Gen Fighter Aircraft Program

5th generation aircraft is a luxury toy, for J20, the single cost of J20, excluding profit、munition、 logisitic etc, is more than 120 million USD.
For 4th Generation aircraft, many fighers in the world. USA(F16\F15\F18),russia(mig 29 35\su 27 35), EU(typoon,rafael,gripen),china(j 10).
but for 5th Generation , now just USA(F22/F35),china(j20, initial production; FC31 prototype),russia(T50, prototype).
F22 is only for USA, did UK/germany/france prefer F22 or not, definitely.why not build 5th generation by themself? because it is not a easy job, just about dozens of billions USD
 
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One would need hundreds of fighters in order to distribute the R&D costs such that the cost is only the labour and materials. Why would Pakistan do it alone (again) when it can actually just order 2-3 squadrons and help another, like Turkey, distribute the R&D load?
If only 2/3 squadrons,you would be right.
To put it another way. If Pakistan joins the TFX, it can help with reducing the cost of each TFX by adding more fighters to the launch order (e.g. divide the R&D cost of $10b across 250 Turkish and 50 Pakistani planes instead of just 200 Turkish planes).
Lets not forget the GCC countries,im sure they will also order some in the future.
Btw,the alerts dont work.
 
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The TFX program may actually be stagnant or zombie right now due to Erdogan's purge.
 
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If only 2/3 squadrons,you would be right.

Lets not forget the GCC countries,im sure they will also order some in the future.
Exactly. One or two other big air forces joining the TFX or at least just committing to launch orders would help make the TFX a relatively affordable platform.

The TFX program may actually be stagnant or zombie right now due to Erdogan's purge.
Alan Warnes had alluded to this when he said the 2023 maiden flight had been pushed back indefinitely. However, no one from the industry has followed-up on this issue. Could be the case, but it isn't apparent at the moment, especially with the British Gov't itself confident that the BAE deal will be closed by the end of year.
 
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5th generation aircraft is a luxury toy
Not if you are in our position,it is essential for my country's future military strenght,in this case the airforce.
Im sure you know that we cant exactly trust our western allies that much for future projects.

Alan Warnes had alluded to this when he said the 2023 maiden flight had been pushed back indefinitely. However, no one from the industry has followed-up on this issue. Could be the case, but it isn't apparent at the moment, especially with the British Gov't itself confident that the BAE deal will be closed by the end of year.
The British ambassador to Turkiye refuted Alan Warnes claimes when answering directly to a Turkish member( @Nutuk ) on twitter.
 
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Exactly. One or two other big air forces joining the TFX or at least just committing to launch orders would help make the TFX a relatively affordable platform.


There is no such thing as a realtively affordable advanced War plane ..

5th Generation fighters cost two or three times the cost to FLY PER HOUR.

The purchase cost of any FITH generation fighter has to be over $150 million per fighter with weapons and training combined minimum.

for 90% of the worlds air forces it is completely unreralistic to buy and operate a 5th gen platform.

AS FOR TFX I would be surprised if it got beyond the drawing board. I am 99% certain the Turks will operate and buy the F35 lightening. full stop.
 
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AS FOR TFX I would be surprised if it got beyond the drawing board. I am 99% certain the Turks will operate and buy the F35 lightening. full stop.
The F-35(100 + 16(LHD/LPD)) is the replacement for the retired F-4s of the Turkish Air Force.
The TFX is for airsuperiority.
 
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There is no such thing as a realtively affordable advanced War plane ..

5th Generation fighters cost two or three times the cost to FLY PER HOUR.

The purchase cost of any FITH generation fighter has to be over $150 million per fighter with weapons and training combined minimum.

for 90% of the worlds air forces it is completely unreralistic to buy and operate a 5th gen platform.

AS FOR TFX I would be surprised if it got beyond the drawing board. I am 99% certain the Turks will operate and buy the F35 lightening. full stop.
Perhaps, but it also depends on how you define a "5th gen fighter." If we are referring to the F-35, then yes, another F-35 would not be a relatively affordable platform. But in light of the commercial and industry advances made in reducing the costs around AESA radars, HMD/S, etc, and Turkey's use of off-the-shelf subsystems (e.g. engine such as the EJ200) can result in a relatively affordable platform. $150m all-in wouldn't be bad either considering Brazil ordered Gripen NG for $130m all-in or that India ordered Rafale for $250m all-in.
 
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Thanks , one more question ... What if PAF asked for a Modified Version ? and if PAF did some changes in Air frame of JF in block-4 or internal bay system , will their experience help them ?
their no stealth version of JFT, but in you wild imagination:hitwall::lol:
 
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The two aren't mutually exclusive. For example, the PAF could be seeking to make a heavier investment in developing and producing radars, ECM/EW, seekers, etc - i.e. areas that are the most sensitive and difficult to procure.

This is what Israel does; it develops its own radar and ECM/EW tech, but then integrates its domestically developed solutions unto foreign platforms such as the F-16, F-15, and now F-35. Alternatively, ACM Sohail Aman also said "looking beyond 5th-generation", suggesting that the next big platform wouldn't be along the same lines as the FC-31 or TFX, but beyond that.
Sir,
What little I understood from ACM Sohail Aman's interview and the questions on 14th Aug, is Pakistan Air Force intends to develop R&D locally utilizing the brains that are now heading West. It also gave me an impression that what PAC achieved over the years in various projects needs to be consolidated and knowledge imparted to the future generations. This knowledge might not be available to future Pakistani's because of stricter controls that Western countries might implement in the future.

ECM/EW, seekers etc is indeed a field that Pakistan is looking for locally and over the years various options have surfaced. UAE was unable to export Pakistan the ECM/EW systems they produce in collaboration with western countries. The French refused initially but now are in talks with a very basic system hence Russian systems are being looked at. China may be willing to export some systems but they might not be ideally suited for Pakistan considering the Rafale deal.

Beyond fifth gen. indicates to me that PAF is looking for independence in the field Artificial Intelligence indicating that in the near future Pakistan might be heading in the direction of producing a super computer. Again this would help the future generation in accessing complicated issues far more accurately.

PAF might also be considering an other PAC type facility based in Sindh or Baluchistan. TAI is a strong contender for a joint venture in this regards as it does offer many solutions that Pakistan requires now and in the future.

Over the years a lot has been said in regards to Future 5th Generation options of Pakistan, how and what might mature is yet some good 5-7 years away.

IMO the issue that PAF faces today is if J-31 is selected and China does not induct these aircraft in her fleet Pakistan would be in a similar situation that is with JF-17's. If China some how allows Pakistan to procure J-20 then things might be different however PAF is not considering this at present. This leaves Pakistan with limited options i.e F-35 and TFX.

F-35's cost approximately 190-220 million today in 5-7 years though more orders would be given still the price would not come down due to inflation and salary increases. PAF would not give a large order hence possibility of local production can not be possible.

Now the only viable option that PAF has is the TFX, Turkey has to replace F-16's hence 200 initial and 100 optional is very much on the cards. The F-35's that Turkey has ordered will replace the F-4's so it is very clear that the TFX order might be increased. The requirement of PAF would be around 200 5th Generation aircraft provided PAF has 300-400
4-4.5++ fighters, which is what has been said in the interview. The interview also indicates that UAV's and UCAV's would also be part of PAF increasing PAF overall aircraft strength to 600. This would be enough for keeping enemies at bay.
 
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Perhaps, but it also depends on how you define a "5th gen fighter." If we are referring to the F-35, then yes, another F-35 would not be a relatively affordable platform. But in light of the commercial and industry advances made in reducing the costs around AESA radars, HMD/S, etc, and Turkey's use of off-the-shelf subsystems (e.g. engine such as the EJ200) can result in a relatively affordable platform. $150m all-in wouldn't be bad either considering Brazil ordered Gripen NG for $130m all-in or that India ordered Rafale for $250m all-in.


TFX is on drawing board only
it takes 15 years to develop a fighter
So TFX will be ready in 2030-2035

PAF needs a new platform in 3 years time
 
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Sir,
What little I understood from ACM Sohail Aman's interview and the questions on 14th Aug, is Pakistan Air Force intends to develop R&D locally utilizing the brains that are now heading West. It also gave me an impression that what PAC achieved over the years in various projects needs to be consolidated and knowledge imparted to the future generations. This knowledge might not be available to future Pakistani's because of stricter controls that Western countries might implement in the future.

ECM/EW, seekers etc is indeed a field that Pakistan is looking for locally and over the years various options have surfaced. UAE was unable to export Pakistan the ECM/EW systems they produce in collaboration with western countries. The French refused initially but now are in talks with a very basic system hence Russian systems are being looked at. China may be willing to export some systems but they might not be ideally suited for Pakistan considering the Rafale deal.

Beyond fifth gen. indicates to me that PAF is looking for independence in the field Artificial Intelligence indicating that in the near future Pakistan might be heading in the direction of producing a super computer. Again this would help the future generation in accessing complicated issues far more accurately.

PAF might also be considering an other PAC type facility based in Sindh or Baluchistan. TAI is a strong contender for a joint venture in this regards as it does offer many solutions that Pakistan requires now and in the future.

Over the years a lot has been said in regards to Future 5th Generation options of Pakistan, how and what might mature is yet some good 5-7 years away.

IMO the issue that PAF faces today is if J-31 is selected and China does not induct these aircraft in her fleet Pakistan would be in a similar situation that is with JF-17's. If China some how allows Pakistan to procure J-20 then things might be different however PAF is not considering this at present. This leaves Pakistan with limited options i.e F-35 and TFX.

F-35's cost approximately 190-220 million today in 5-7 years though more orders would be given still the price would not come down due to inflation and salary increases. PAF would not give a large order hence possibility of local production can not be possible.

Now the only viable option that PAF has is the TFX, Turkey has to replace F-16's hence 200 initial and 100 optional is very much on the cards. The F-35's that Turkey has ordered will replace the F-4's so it is very clear that the TFX order might be increased. The requirement of PAF would be around 200 5th Generation aircraft provided PAF has 300-400
4-4.5++ fighters, which is what has been said in the interview. The interview also indicates that UAV's and UCAV's would also be part of PAF increasing PAF overall aircraft strength to 600. This would be enough for keeping enemies at bay.
That's good insight.
TFX is on drawing board only
it takes 15 years to develop a fighter
So TFX will be ready in 2030-2035

PAF needs a new platform in 3 years time
Agreed.
 
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Not if you are in our position,it is essential for my country's future military strenght,in this case the airforce.
Im sure you know that we cant exactly trust our western allies that much for future projects.


The British ambassador to Turkiye refuted Alan Warnes claimes when answering directly to a Turkish member( @Nutuk ) on twitter.
Whatever ,keep up,friend
 
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REGARDING TFX and PAF aspirations to jump on to this project

Some sobering facts

Turkey is a relatively poor and technologically way behind the Like of Europe Chinna & Russia

The combined might of UK France Germany have not started a fifth generation project

it taked 15-20 years to design build and test a fighter

it will take over $25 billion in investement or even more to design a TFX

please tell me how when Pakistan will contribute to this new yet to start project
 
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