Pakistan, Russia agree to boost defence cooperation

[Rafi]

Talks between Pakistan and Russia - have included the S-300 SAM - Russia has indicated it's willingness to negotiate - will come up in discussions to be held with COAS in Moscow - CAS - has already had some technical talk with Russian counterparts - along with PAF Specialists.

Russia has indicated this relationship is starting again - "past is past" - according to high officials in Russia and Pakistan. PRC has used their good offices to help Pakistan in this endevor.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Talks between Pakistan and Russia - have included the S-300 SAM - Russia has indicated it's willingness to negotiate - will come up in discussions to be held with COAS in Moscow - CAS - has already had some technical talk with Russian counterparts - along with PAF Specialists.

Russia has indicated this relationship is starting again - "past is past" - according to high officials in Russia and Pakistan. PRC has used their good offices to help Pakistan in this endevor.

I have to be honest- I don't see Russia selling the S-300 for the foreseeable future, India would oppose any such move and Russia will not chose Pakistan over India.My guess is the Pakistani side raised a possible sale (it was worth a shot) and I'm sure the Russian side played along but nothing will progress.

Bang Galore, Can india equally trust on any other nation as it trust Russia as a "trustworthy suppliers"? No doubt ! you have limited influence on them as a reliable costumer, but Russia would likely response and prefer their own strategic interests on indian likes and dislikes. and as orangzaib had said in his post that and so as Russia. Even smarter diplomacy cannot hold others to do better for their national interests.

India can trust Israel and France just as much, if not more, as Russia. Israel has helped India when it needed it most in the past (Kargil). Russia is reliable but its after-sales support leaves a lot to be desired and doesn't hold a candle to Western support. And when it comes down to it it is simple business- India's annual defence budget will be touching 1/2 a TRILLION USD by 2030 and even a small slither of the Indian market is HUGE business and cold hard cash will keep these players loyal to India.

 

[Viper0011.]

I have to be honest- I don't see Russia selling the S-300 for the foreseeable future, India would oppose any such move and Russia will not chose Pakistan over India.My guess is the Pakistani side raised a possible sale (it was worth a shot) and I'm sure the Russian side played along but nothing will progress.

Are you sure you are being honest as you were claiming in your first sentence?? I let you re-read what you wrote and decide that for yourself!! If Russia REALLY did care about India THAT much. Pakistan wouldn't have a flying Thunder today. I think I made my point.

India's annual defence budget will be touching 1/2 a TRILLION USD by 2030 and even a small slither of the Indian market is HUGE business and cold hard cash will keep these players loyal to India.

Really dude? The US, with ALL its mighty weapon consuming, building and selling capabilities, 60+ years after the WWII got to 500+ billion defense budget. You really see an 'emerging market' like India getting there in next 20 years....within 30 years after the economy took off from 0 to 5 (on a scale of 0 -10). Your gdp last year's suffered, the outsourcing and product consumption's suffered for the past two years and you need to recover from it.

India is a big market, no doubt. But let's not project India as the next US. There's no such thing that exists or will exist. In international politics, there's no such thing as hard cash and the 'loyalty' this is cheap talk. It is ALL about your national interests, your gdp and how you grow your economy. Friends, girl friends and uncles will change and have been changing. This issue about Russia and Pakistan is an example of that. Hope a bit reality helps here

 

[Hulk]

Talks between Pakistan and Russia - have included the S-300 SAM - Russia has indicated it's willingness to negotiate - will come up in discussions to be held with COAS in Moscow - CAS - has already had some technical talk with Russian counterparts - along with PAF Specialists.

Russia has indicated this relationship is starting again - "past is past" - according to high officials in Russia and Pakistan. PRC has used their good offices to help Pakistan in this endevor.

I am sorry, but some people always dream way too big and does not remain realistic. I do not think S300 will come to Pakistan in another maybe decade.

a) USA/China and Other countries do watch out sales of missile and defense system.
b) Major world player and most important USA does not Pakistan to have very strong defense, they know that there is always a possibility of conflict and recent events show that.
c) India enjoys a lot of clout with Russia and will not be very hard for them to block the sale. It will be different if there is some less important weapon being sold.
d) Russia knows Pakistan does not have hard cash and will ask for long term credit in buying, does not motivate them.

So dude, yes you are getting closer to Russia, but closer does not mean that in one year you will become so close that they will open everything for you.

Keep in mind that more you get closer to Russia, the better it is for India. We are going to be friends with Russia for a long time and its hard to be enemy of friends friend.

One important thing, in past Pakistan believed in camps, like you are my enemy I will not do any business with you. They have recently realized that is not how world works, something that lot of other nations knew for some time. Which means Pakistan is waking up to world reality. You were behind on how real world business works and were making decision on emotional basis for very long time. Glad to finally made it.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Are you sure you are being honest as you were claiming in your first sentence?? I let you re-read what you wrote and decide that for yourself!! If Russia REALLY did care about India THAT much. Pakistan wouldn't have a flying Thunder today. I think I made my point.



Really dude? The US, with ALL its mighty weapon consuming, building and selling capabilities, 60+ years after the WWII got to 500+ billion defense budget. You really see an 'emerging market' like India getting there in next 20 years....within 30 years after the economy took off from 0 to 5 (on a scale of 0 -10). Your gdp last year's suffered, the outsourcing and product consumption's suffered for the past two years and you need to recover from it.

India is a big market, no doubt. But let's not project India as the next US. There's no such thing that exists or will exist. In international politics, there's no such thing as hard cash and the 'loyalty' this is cheap talk. It is ALL about your national interests, your gdp and how you grow your economy. Friends, girl friends and uncles will change and have been changing. This issue about Russia and Pakistan is an example of that. Hope a bit reality helps here

When did I say "India is the next US"??? The US spends in excess of 1.3 TRILLION (the actual spend is considerably more) on defenc each year currently- so still much more than 2 times what India will be spending in ~20 years. In any case by 2030 India WILL be in the top 5 economies on earth and by 2045-50, along with China, WILL dislodge the US as number 1/2 economy on earth and as such will be spending more on defence. Look this up it is FACT.

Exactly-"national interests", do you not think Russia's national interets lie with India and its ever growing defence budget or with Pakistan??!! Does it suit Russia's "national interest" to turn down tens if not hundreds of Billions in USD, in the long run, from India in favor of $1-2 BN from Pakistan??!! The Russians aren't fools they know which side their bread's buttered.


+ I doubt India cared much about Russia supplying the older RD-93 engine.

 

[ANG]

Moscow Warms Up To Islamabad ~ ASIAN DEFENSE

Moscow Warms Up To Islamabad

Pakistan Army’s Chief of the Army Staff, Gen Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, will be visiting Moscow in the coming days, following which Russian President Vladimir Putin will make a two-day official visit to Pakistan starting October 2, during which Putin will meet his Pakistani counterpart Asif Ali Zardari during talks that are part of a quadrilateral summit to be hosted by Pakistan on October 3 in which Afghanistan’s and Tajikistan’s Presidents will also take part. The credit for initiating high-level dialogues between Moscow and Islamabad goes to Pakistan’s former President-cum-COAS Gen Pervez Musharraf, following his state visit in February 2003. Next to visit Moscow was President Asif Ali Zardari, who paid a three-day official visit to between May 11 and 13 this year.

During this meeting, Islamabad had sought Russia’s financial-cum-diplomatic support for the Iran–Pakistan (IP) gas pipeline (for which Germany-based ILF has completed detailed engineering design and according to the interim feasibility report, the cost of the project is between $1.2 and $1.5 billion) after both the US and Saudi Arabia played spoilt-sports last March and forced the world’s largest ban--Industrial and Commercial Bank of China Ltd (ICBC)—to roll back its plans for syndicating funds for the Pakistani side of the IP gas pipeline. Last year, Pakistan’s own state-owned National Bank of Pakistan (NBP) and Oil and Gas Development Company Ltd (OGDC) had walked away from the project last year fearing US sanctions. Faced with no other alternative, Islamabad has turned to Moscow for financial assistance for continuance of the IP gas pipeline project.

nterestingly, Moscow has signalled its readiness to warm up to Pakistan’s overtures with the proviso that Pakistan accommodates Russia’s concerns regarding the regional security scenario in Central Asia, given the fact that Pakistan’s Gilgit-Baltistan/Khyber Pakhtunkhwa belt is separated from Tajikistan by Afghanistan’s narrow Wakhan Corridor, and that this belt of Pakistan also borders the Kashgar prefecture of China’s troubled Xinjiang province. To this end, Russia is reported to be willing to extend a sizeable quantum of security assistance to Pakistan, which is likely to include up to 12 new-build Mi-171 helicopters (to be built by the Ulan-Ude Aviation Plant) and hundreds of RPO-A Shmel (Bumblebee) shoulder-launched thermobaric rockets, items which the Pakistan Army urgently requires for its upcoming counter-insurgency campaign in North Waziristan.

While in Moscow, Gen Kayani is also likely to canvass for the Kremlin’s approval for three crucial projects: creation of an engine overhaul facility in Kamra for the 84.4kN-thrust Klimov RD-93, whuch powers the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) JF-17 ‘Thunder’ MRCA; another overhaul workshop for the 12 RD & PE Zvezda JSC-built UPAZ-1 aerial refuelling pods in service with the PAF’s four IL-78MKP MRTT transports; continued product-support for the four IL-78MKPs; and most importantly, the export approval for 132kN-thrust AL-31FN turbofans required for powering the initial 40 FC-20 (36-single-seat and four tandem-seat) M-MRCAs that the PAF wants to procure from China’s Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corp (which is also producing the JF-17).

 

[Super Falcon]

i dont think still russia willing to sell us their ace stuff to pakistan MI 17 they will even sell to US i dont see they sel us Sukhoi and new subs which we need

 

[K-Xeroid]

Actually India does trust Israel almost as much, if not more. It is not about holding any other country hostage, it's simply about the economics. Russia would have simply found it very tough to finance a fifth generation fighter if the only customers were the Russian air force. India is planning on buying some 200-300 of the fighters, even more than the Russians themselves thereby hammering down the costs involved. You guys simply don't have the economy to do that regardless of whatever strategic position you think you have, which actually for Russia is irrelevant because of their ties with Iran. You are simply a country which cannot account for anything on your own. What do you bring to the table that should make the Russians take risks losing an economic & military partner much, much bigger than you? No rationale exists & you chaps are simply jumping the gun hoping for chickens when the eggs haven't been laid yet.

So it means that u are concluding that india can float its boat without Russia , its Russia who depends on you. I would prefer Russia on Israel its cuz Israel in all terms depends on United States. Indirectly Indians are bit more optimistic towards west. As far as Iran is concern, they are also facing tense situation with even nieghbouring and other middle-eastern countries, but still a nice ally of Russia, India can't be tagged as ally . Initially its on Russia that how much important they consider us , and currently specially for the regional stability we do have importance, our economy would take atleast 5 more years to get on track with having +6% growth rate ,still it depends on our internal situation but it would not have any positive or negative effect regarding to Rus-Pak ties. Here you have to decide that you prefer U.S (I mean Israel) or Russia and If you prefer both then we are also doing same.

 

[Abingdonboy]

So it means that u are concluding that india can float its boat without Russia , its Russia who depends on you. I would prefer Russia on Israel its cuz Israel in all terms depends on United States. Indirectly Indians are bit more optimistic towards west. As far as Iran is concern, they are also facing tense situation with even nieghbouring and other middle-eastern countries, but still a nice ally of Russia, India can't be tagged as ally . Initially its on Russia that how much important they consider us , and currently specially for the regional stability we do have importance, our economy would take atleast 5 more years to get on track with having +6% growth rate ,still it depends on our internal situation but it would not have any positive or negative effect regarding to Rus-Pak ties. Here you have to decide that you prefer U.S (I mean Israel) or Russia and If you prefer both then we are also doing same.

Pakistan isn't anywhere near 6% yet. Don't count all your chickens before they hatch.

 

[Viper0011.]

When did I say "India is the next US"??? The US spends in excess of 1.3 TRILLION (the actual spend is considerably more) on defenc each year currently- so still much more than 2 times what India will be spending in ~20 years. In any case by 2030 India WILL be in the top 5 economies on earth and by 2045-50, along with China, WILL dislodge the US as number 1/2 economy on earth and as such will be spending more on defence. Look this up it is FACT.

Exactly-"national interests", do you not think Russia's national interets lie with India and its ever growing defence budget or with Pakistan??!! Does it suit Russia's "national interest" to turn down tens if not hundreds of Billions in USD, in the long run, from India in favor of $1-2 BN from Pakistan??!! The Russians aren't fools they know which side their bread's buttered.


+ I doubt India cared much about Russia supplying the older RD-93 engine.

So let me address some of the main points:
1) You are so precisely talking about where India will be in 30 years like you are providing world economic plans. I disagree with it. An example, what the world knew about 'emerging markets being BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India and China) has changed since 2010. It is NOW BRICS + 11. And Pakistan is in there too. So the world's wealth will be distributed between these countries and the defense industries too.

2) Russian interest is not with India anymore. India wants to supersede the Russians and frankly speaking, being the second only superpower for 50 years, they don't like it. So, their interests lie elsewhere (Pakistan China, Iran, ME and Eastern Europe). You'll see plenty of changes in the next five years. Just keep watching the news. Iran has billions of dollars....do you think US will give them the weapons they desire for hard cash? And they were in bed with the US a few decades ago. So hope this help in understanding the world politics.

3) Old engine to JFT....sure, but you forget the capability. It can lock at an Indian jet 100 km away. So if it is on the border....it can lock onto your jets when they just get airborne. I am not saying the Indian jets won't or can't do the same. I am just providing logic to your naive statement. This capability is LEAPS AND BOUNDS vs. where PAF was just a decade ago. SO.....you can see for yourself what the 'old engines' can do.
The one thing I hate about debating with folks like you is when you guys can't objectively debate, you start to put down the other side. That's not debate, that's you getting personal. 500 of these JFT's with new avionics, missiles and 'old engines' are enough to keep the Indian air force guessing the spellings of the word air supremacy. That's a fact and that's a fact in terms of the Russian shift in their strategic interests.

 

[Storm Force]

Pakistanis have never brought BIG TICKET military hardware from any nation AT ANY STAGE.

WHAT I MEAN by BIG TICKET hardware is the following

$2.5 billion aircraft carrier like GORSKHOV

$1 BILLION nuclear powred submarne like AKULA class

0,5 billion dollar ABM defense system like S300/S400

If the pakistanis WANT such systems the RUSSIANS are the most realistic option. Absoulutely zero chance chance from USA/EUROPE.

China lacks cutting edge sub & carrier technology.

BUT CAN PAKISTAN SPEND THE DOLLARS

do you guys have the guts/ ambition and drive to buy a RUSSIAN multi billion dollar weapon system.

Personally i think you will buy small fry military hardware like a few helicopters & engines for thunders... & transport planes

 

[Viper0011.]

Pakistanis have never brought BIG TICKET military hardware from any nation AT ANY STAGE.

WHAT I MEAN by BIG TICKET hardware is the following

$2.5 billion aircraft carrier like GORSKHOV

$1 BILLION nuclear powred submarne like AKULA class

0,5 billion dollar ABM defense system like S300/S400

If the pakistanis WANT such systems the RUSSIANS are the most realistic option. Absoulutely zero chance chance from USA/EUROPE.

China lacks cutting edge sub & carrier technology.

BUT CAN PAKISTAN SPEND THE DOLLARS

do you guys have the guts/ ambition and drive to buy a RUSSIAN multi billion dollar weapon system.

Personally i think you will buy small fry military hardware like a few helicopters & engines for thunders... & transport planes

Again, silly comparisons. It's so childish. Why does Pakistan need to spend money on 'big ticket' items when the only enemy they have is India? Plus, not to mention the financial situation?
Also, where were these 'big ticket items' when your middle class was non existent like 20 years ago? Thanks to American jobs that you have a decent middle class but I'd love to see you talk about big ticket' items when you guys barely had the money to purchase Maruti's. Common, let's not be high school kids here. If Pakistan's economy takes off or anyone else for that matter, you'll see any country spending money on big ticket items.

Surprising part is, that even with the small ticket items, they've kept a large foe on bay every time.....I don't like to take sides as that's not objective but I find myself in between incorrect and silly statements and then I have to say the truth. That makes the whole thing sound like I am taking sides!

 

[batmannow]

Small steps are always better then none.. so lets not get too excited yet be hopeful.. and for the people that are hoping that nothing ever happens between Pakistan & Russia understand everything is business simply don't expect to show your A$$ to the Rusians and then expect ever thing else to be gravy A saying we say here in the States lets mind your own business and let Russia decide what it wants to do with who .

Its just crystal clear, tht its not money which is important rightnow for russia, its just the stratgical location which russia is attracted now!
Pakistan with its geopolitical location is the center of intersts for russia, which is far more important thn anything else?
Which india lacks ?poor india!

 

[Storm Force]

Orangzeib.

re FINANCIAL SITUATION... Pakistan has never been in a position to buy MAJOR mlitary hardware

Only handful of countries can afford to buy acquire maintain a aircraft carriers, nuclear subs , and large nos of $100m fighters.

By hand ful i mean TOP DOZEN or so largest industrial nations ...

Pakistan & russia can deveope military relationships buy/sell/joint develope BUT IT will on a much smaller scale fraction of the previous indo russian levels.

LIKEWISE your former ally USA is selling $350m transport planes like c17 GLOBEMASTERS TO INDIA yet pakistan wud never buy such expensive hardware AND usa WOULD NOT ENTERTAIN selling it to or trying to sell to you.

 

[K-Xeroid]

Pakistan isn't anywhere near 6% yet. Don't count all your chickens before they hatch.

I were indicating the figures on the basis of potential, Try to understand the actual opinion behind the post before Replying.