Pakistan, Russia agree to boost defence cooperation

[Edevelop]

Orangzeib.

re FINANCIAL SITUATION... Pakistan has never been in a position to buy MAJOR mlitary hardware

Only handful of countries can afford to buy acquire maintain a aircraft carriers, nuclear subs , and large nos of $100m fighters.

By hand ful i mean TOP DOZEN or so largest industrial nations ...

Pakistan & russia can deveope military relationships buy/sell/joint develope BUT IT will on a much smaller scale fraction of the previous indo russian levels.

LIKEWISE your former ally USA is selling $350m transport planes like c17 GLOBEMASTERS TO INDIA yet pakistan wud never buy such expensive hardware AND usa WOULD NOT ENTERTAIN selling it to or trying to sell to you.

We don't need to go for 'big types'. SAMS, JF-17s, F-16s, and AWACS in 'big quantities' are enough.

You have a very weird analysis. How is something worth 'more money' always better in capability. You have been saying that all along. Please explain.

 

[Edevelop]

Orangzeib.

re FINANCIAL SITUATION... Pakistan has never been in a position to buy MAJOR mlitary hardware

Only handful of countries can afford to buy acquire maintain a aircraft carriers, nuclear subs , and large nos of $100m fighters.

By hand ful i mean TOP DOZEN or so largest industrial nations ...

Pakistan & russia can deveope military relationships buy/sell/joint develope BUT IT will on a much smaller scale fraction of the previous indo russian levels.

LIKEWISE your former ally USA is selling $350m transport planes like c17 GLOBEMASTERS TO INDIA yet pakistan wud never buy such expensive hardware AND usa WOULD NOT ENTERTAIN selling it to or trying to sell to you.

We don't need to go for 'big types'. SAMS, JF-17s, F-16s, and AWACS in 'big quantities' are enough.

You have a very weird analysis. How is something worth 'more money' always better in capability. You have been saying that all along. Please explain.

 

[batmannow]

Again & again, same insane dissatifaction & stupid kinda attitude by some of our much nationalist indian mates?
Its seems they don't understand the strategical location of pakistan , also they can't understand , why russia came to afghanistan, why US supported pakistan in 80s against,russian occupation of afghanistan?
What price did russia paid for that war?
Now in a sudden , without any barriers , russians are getting , what they hve ever dreamed off, I think they will be willing to give more thn , wht pakistan is expecting !
Plz, allways remember its india , which never supported chinese or russian position on crunnt afghanistan crisis, india unmaturly followed america to get its hands of silk route, & so thus they are about to pay a lossing price !
It will be a undeclred & un spoken & undocumented united defensive front against against NATO & its allies .
I think , even thinking realisticly there is a big chance of pakistan getting its hands on bigger militry hardware. From russia .
Money , economy, are the 2ndry items on russian agenda, they are more intersted in a base camp jst opposite the americans in arabian states , including iran?

 

[Viper0011.]

Orangzeib.

re FINANCIAL SITUATION... Pakistan has never been in a position to buy MAJOR mlitary hardware

Only handful of countries can afford to buy acquire maintain a aircraft carriers, nuclear subs , and large nos of $100m fighters.

By hand ful i mean TOP DOZEN or so largest industrial nations ...

Pakistan & russia can deveope military relationships buy/sell/joint develope BUT IT will on a much smaller scale fraction of the previous indo russian levels.

LIKEWISE your former ally USA is selling $350m transport planes like c17 GLOBEMASTERS TO INDIA yet pakistan wud never buy such expensive hardware AND usa WOULD NOT ENTERTAIN selling it to or trying to sell to you.

"Your former ally USA"....so JUST because I spoke the truth, you are going to count me in as a Pakistani....isn't that silly? Don't you think?

Well my friend, your country has milked the living out of my country. I think we have a right to sell you some stuff and get some of our cash back. I don't think that'll happen and the leadership in Washington will realize that soon that outsourcing hard working American jobs does have a toll on the country's economy. But that's a separate debate.

Again, I am failing to understand your point.....Pakistan can't buy big ticket items...I could've told you this in 2002. But what is your point?
However, while you 'think' about the point you are trying to make, I do have a point to make. Why does anyone need to buy big ticket items when they've successfully deterred a much bigger foe from aggression for over decades? Second, why would someone buy big ticket items when they can't afford it? Again, I don't understand what you are trying to say...so please explain

 

[fatman17]

JF-17 program is US$ 3.5 billion when completed.
F-16 program is US$ 3.0 billion. and talks ongoing for 18 additional examples for US$ 1.3 billion.
Agosta program is US$ 1.0 billion.
J-10B program is US$ 1.5 billion when excercised.
AK-1/AK-2 program is US$ 1.2 billion when all examples are delivered.

i would consider these as 'big ticket' items. PK dosnt purchase with the propensity of India but we do buy big ticket items.

the chinese Song-class subs will cost over US$1.2 billion with AIP. the F-22P program was worth US$0.7 billion and if 4 additional surface vessels are purchased, the total program will cost US$ 1.4 billion.

for PK these are big ticket items.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Thanks FM for bringing the senseless pissing contest to an end for our friends from the east!

The weapons buying spree has a logical begining and an end to it. There are benefactors, both direct and indirect, and pressure plays directed at others.

India wil eventually figure out, if they have not, till now, that they are actually playing out of someone else's playbook for an end game that really does not suit them in the longer run. They will spend money that will help create jobs in Fort Worth and up the ante on the threat scale for their own people. For US, or for that matter any other super power that would be in their place as the sole player, any potential threat to its position has to be dealt with today.

It is China today, very soon it would be India, presuming all goes well for India and it does not bankrupt itself by dispropotionately spending on defence because of someone else's perceived threats.

This is the classic divide and rule of the old, now played at a global level instead of in country efforts in the time of our imperial masters.

Uncle Sam is clever, it is asking India and others to foot the bill for what Reagan did to USSR. It got USSR to go in overdrive with a military build-up and increased force projections, globally! Eventually, bankrupting itself in the process.

This time around, it is asking others to go into overdrive on military spending, look at Korea, Japan, India, and now Australia. The encirclement of China with the inclusion of Vietnam would be complete. Choke supply routes, push them to project force, hence build up and spend on so called big ticket items, Navy! Get them to redirect resources that could have been used elsewhere. In essence, slow down the Chinese economy.

The hedge is India and Vietnam! Replacement cheap manufacturing base. But what happens when India really gets going. Don't you think that it would also be a threat?

Logical alliance with US can only be for a short run. The longer and more durable alliance for India should be in its immedate area of interest, i.e. China, Russia, and to some extent Africa.

US has gone out of the race for cheap ME oil. It is increasingly going for tight oil and gas in US and Latin America. It also exploring reopening a number of mines of strategic metals on the continent. Infact it is very soon going to be exporting coal to China as it has almost finished off its coal fired power plants!

The presence in and around these areas (ME/Africa) is only for denial of these precious resources to their business partners of today when sh_t hits the fan.

Pakistan is a regional player at best. On the other hand India has much larger stakes -- need to think through before really diving into the cesspool of global powerplay, head first. Ambitions aside, it needs to chart out a more non-aligned route that it so much championed for in the eighties!

Indeed it is a heady time for India, center of focus, good political mileage out of new investments and big ticket deals. But have we though about the end game? Is India ready to play along US as a loyal "Saathi" (Pun intended with all its connotations)?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I feel Pakistan should go with 2 prone strategy

a) Long Range Missile Defence Shield with China
b) TOT for Mid range program so we can have ample protection in specific areas in country
for any attempt to fly low and reach strategic zones.


The arrival of Long Range Missiles would be first priority for National Soverignity
and is a top priority and it must be non US technology

We should ideally have 6-20 Long range air defence shields supplimented by locally made 40-100 batteries made inside Pakistan for Proper 21st century air defence

To really complete the gap

6 - S300 Air defence systems from Russia would be a wonderful start and
100 Helicopters for Pakistan Army

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0XWwrwcCM8

 

[airmarshal]

Again & again, same insane dissatifaction & stupid kinda attitude by some of our much nationalist indian mates?
Its seems they don't understand the strategical location of pakistan , also they can't understand , why russia came to afghanistan, why US supported pakistan in 80s against,russian occupation of afghanistan?
What price did russia paid for that war?
Now in a sudden , without any barriers , russians are getting , what they hve ever dreamed off, I think they will be willing to give more thn , wht pakistan is expecting !
Plz, allways remember its india , which never supported chinese or russian position on crunnt afghanistan crisis, india unmaturly followed america to get its hands of silk route, & so thus they are about to pay a lossing price !
It will be a undeclred & un spoken & undocumented united defensive front against against NATO & its allies .
I think , even thinking realisticly there is a big chance of pakistan getting its hands on bigger militry hardware. From russia .
Money , economy, are the 2ndry items on russian agenda, they are more intersted in a base camp jst opposite the americans in arabian states , including iran?

India thinks its smart. Their only agenda is to be anti-Pakistan. Like always, when it comes to Afghanistan, India is on the wrong side of the history. Its mandarins must think why it is always betting on the losing side!

 

[airmarshal]

Orangzeib.

re FINANCIAL SITUATION... Pakistan has never been in a position to buy MAJOR mlitary hardware

Only handful of countries can afford to buy acquire maintain a aircraft carriers, nuclear subs , and large nos of $100m fighters.

By hand ful i mean TOP DOZEN or so largest industrial nations ...

Pakistan & russia can deveope military relationships buy/sell/joint develope BUT IT will on a much smaller scale fraction of the previous indo russian levels.

LIKEWISE your former ally USA is selling $350m transport planes like c17 GLOBEMASTERS TO INDIA yet pakistan wud never buy such expensive hardware AND usa WOULD NOT ENTERTAIN selling it to or trying to sell to you.

I see. Like many Indians you are delusional about your country's status. But with this attitude, I unfortunately see you coming down very quickly.

Buy all you can. But you will never be what you aspire to be.

 

[Storm Force]

Airmarshal

re your remark " india,s status"

NOTHING delusional about indian GDP military budget or FOREX being TOP 10 globally

MAKING INDIA a completely different LEVEL TO PAKISTAN...

Why are the Americans Israelis & french & germans & brits arse licking india ... AND ignoring Pakistan.

IS THIS NOT ALL ABT PERCEPTION & POWER

 

[Bobby]

JF-17 program is US$ 3.5 billion when completed.
F-16 program is US$ 3.0 billion. and talks ongoing for 18 additional examples for US$ 1.3 billion.
Agosta program is US$ 1.0 billion.
J-10B program is US$ 1.5 billion when excercised.
AK-1/AK-2 program is US$ 1.2 billion when all examples are delivered.

i would consider these as 'big ticket' items. PK dosnt purchase with the propensity of India but we do buy big ticket items.

the chinese Song-class subs will cost over US$1.2 billion with AIP. the F-22P program was worth US$0.7 billion and if 4 additional surface vessels are purchased, the total program will cost US$ 1.4 billion.

for PK these are big ticket items.

Most (if not all) of the F16s came from US aid money.....I agree on purchase from China ...they don't give free anything

J10B....not clear yet

JF17....it came in bits and pieces and continuous process.....but I thought is developed by Pakistan.

 

[Bossman]

Airmarshal

re your remark " india,s status"

NOTHING delusional about indian GDP military budget or FOREX being TOP 10 globally

MAKING INDIA a completely different LEVEL TO PAKISTAN...

Why are the Americans Israelis & french & germans & brits arse licking india ... AND ignoring Pakistan.

IS THIS NOT ALL ABT PERCEPTION & POWER

You are right, this is about providing jobs to the Americans, Europeans Israelis;making poor people of Indian starve more; and making its politicians and generals richer. India military procurement is worst than most oil rich Arab countries. They are all vanity projects with similar mind-set as noveau rich Indians buying designer goods.

 

[airmarshal]

Airmarshal

re your remark " india,s status"

NOTHING delusional about indian GDP military budget or FOREX being TOP 10 globally

MAKING INDIA a completely different LEVEL TO PAKISTAN...

Why are the Americans Israelis & french & germans & brits arse licking india ... AND ignoring Pakistan.

IS THIS NOT ALL ABT PERCEPTION & POWER

When you are at a totally different level, why do you compare yourself with us then? I m at a loss.

 

[airmarshal]

Most (if not all) of the F16s came from US aid money.....I agree on purchase from China ...they don't give free anything

J10B....not clear yet

JF17....it came in bits and pieces and continuous process.....but I thought is developed by Pakistan.

None of the F-16s were US 'aid'. You dont know anything but every Indian is a Pakistan expert.

Pakistan paid for all 40 F-16s in 1982. It paid for the 28 built out of the total order for 71. It also paid for the 18 it recently bought.

 

[batmannow]

India thinks its smart. Their only agenda is to be anti-Pakistan. Like always, when it comes to Afghanistan, India is on the wrong side of the history. Its mandarins must think why it is always betting on the losing side!

Sorry to hving a different view on the subject!
My friend, india hve the bigger problems with their civil-militry berucrcy which is dictating the militry doctrine of india, mostly its their political leadership deciding militry deals to get kick backs & underground commisions.
As it was proven truly by a Indain army chief , who had been forced to retirement , just because he , right fully tried to indicate the indian PM of , real situation of the readyness of the indian militry at any given time!
& the existing poor & croupt method adopted by the political laedership to become rich, & its not the frist time its happening there?
Pakistan luckly , is much more dependent on its militry establishment, which is totaly responsible for its militry doctrine & its militry deals, in other words political interference in militry matters are nearly 2% , thn india ?
Thts why our most militry deals always has future & scope.
If india change its, stratgy to let its militry decided itself , wht to buy & create checks & balances over its militry purchases surly , it can become a real threat to many superpowers .
250+ flying cofins are the major blow to its IAF , for example even if they got , israeli upgrads!
But no one in india , can point a finger on these issues?
I think , russia needs pakistan to create a coridor of uncertainty for US & its allies in ME , by regestring russian stratgical intersts with its own national intersts & its happening now, mark grossmen went empty handed yesterday from islamabad , all his demands went for nothing , & thus we are heading towards a natural strategical partnership with russia & iran & china.
I think, we can achive a lot , with a lot of immediate effects , even in afghanistan.

Pakistan needs a protection of its own, right now with all its efforts & all the hard work we had done togther, we really have failed to build any trust with our alles like USA , its time now to check others around.
Hopefully, it will be a bigger deal thn getting some jet engines & helis , cause its a lot more on stake for both russia & pakistan?