PAKISTAN REMOTE SENSING SATELLITE (PRSC-EOS)

[JamD]

Will any electric drive not work? I think that is why its projected age is 5 years. How does Hubble move?

Hubble has reaction wheels and magnetic torquers. The hubble needs to change it's attitude VERRY slowly since A- it can afford to spend time changing from one target to another and B- it looks at distant galaxies which are "basically stationary" so it's attitude control system is meant for stabilization, and C- Hubble orbits 600 km ish which is reasonably high to avoid drag effects. So Hubble's systems are designed for super precise movements in mind. For Earth pointing you need constant rotation (Nadir pointing) and of course since you are constantly rotating you need the attitude control thrusters for precise pointing. I doubt reaction wheels small enough to fit on this satellite can stabilize the satellite as fast as possible (remember that the point it is stabilizing about is constantly shifting). So I think cold-gas thrusters are a reasonable choice. And yes you're right, the mission life is almost surely determined by propellant carried.

It'd be cool if we could have a Pakistani company specialize in this area, not just for satellites but EO/IR, HMD/S, and even red-dot sights and rifle scopes.

I have thought about this

 

[Goenitz]

It'd be cool if we could have a Pakistani company specialize in this area, not just for satellites but EO/IR, HMD/S, and even red-dot sights and rifle scopes.

If it has some civilian application and export potential then I guess it can work. Else, it will need government patronage. For instance making DLSR lenses but then it cannot compete against samsung/kodak.
Or just outsource that part and focus on assembly and respective ECUs.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

If it has some civilian application and export potential then I guess it can work. Else, it will need government patronage. For instance making DLSR lenses but then it cannot compete against samsung/kodak.
Or just outsource that part and focus on assembly and respective ECUs.

True but sourcing our own defence optronics can help save hard currency. We may not export much, but the USD/Euro savings and secure domestic supply channel will pay for themselves. That said, if our company makes R&D strides, they could collaborate on foreign systems. This way, they can export engineering services, specific inputs, or even IP.

 

[JamD]

True but sourcing our own defence optronics can help save hard currency. We may not export much, but the USD/Euro savings and secure domestic supply channel will pay for themselves. That said, if our company makes R&D strides, they could collaborate on foreign systems. This way, they can export engineering services, specific inputs, or even IP.

Valid points but who will convince our planners that made in Pakistan optronics are worth buying? Even if a Pakistani product is totally local, it should get a foreign shell company and pretend it's a foreign product that is merely assembled locally. It will do better than the product branded is 100% local.

 

[Goenitz]

Valid points but who will convince our planners that made in Pakistan optronics are worth buying? Even if a Pakistani product is totally local, it should get a foreign shell company and pretend it's a foreign product that is merely assembled locally. It will do better than the product branded is 100% local.

True, I think SQ8 also said something like that. However, my point was related to economics. We may produce our carbon fibre but the plant will cost billions $. So Pak imports it even 3-4 times the price (banned for Pak so through black market).

The high grade lens requires the same pollution control environment as silicon chip making (idk the cost, but check the quality requirement). A little impurity will degrade the lens. Anyway, Pak should consider making glass for solar cells. It can pave way for the other industry.

 

[Karl]

Where'd you get that PDF?

Also:
View attachment 775261
Startup idea anyone?

Some fool uploaded it onto scribd. There seems to be zero sense of any sort of secrecy or official confidentiality in a lot of govt departments/scientific institutes. I'll never forget years ago development plans of top secret projects being made available by searching online through provincial level budget documents.

 

[JamD]

Some fool uploaded it onto scribd. There seems to be zero sense of any sort of secrecy or official confidentiality in a lot of govt departments/scientific institutes. I'll never forget years ago development plans of top secret projects being made available by searching online through provincial level budget documents.

Went on Scribd and found all of that. Good read.

 

[S A L M A N.]

I have been seeing those for a decade at least. Truck ki batti if you ask me.

Sadly, I agree. The projects these docs mentioned were good - given that they were properly managed and audited, adequately funded and provided useful deliverables. Obviously, that doesn't usually happen. Whatever projects saw the the light of day probably sit on some computer or filing cabinet, never to be touched again.

Again maybe. Dr.Ihtezaz Qamar (ex KRL) has been working on building a liquid-fueled rocket engine at IST for the past 7-8 years. I know that sounds like a toy project but he was given an entire lab for his own, and is left to his own devices because of the clout that he has. So MAYBE there was a serious liquid program running somewhere, which was linked with this university-level program run by Dr.Qamar.

That's interesting and may be a cause of hope.

A major question that has always been on my mind though: Do you have any idea if the solid rocket motors for the Shaheen series, etc were actually developed and produced indigenously? Or did we just license-produced them/modified Chinese designs?

I suspect that that is the Pakistani SLV design. Leverage our expertise in solid rockets and have liquid fueled upper stages for the fine control you need for orbital insertion.

Would love to see this Pakistani SLV in my lifetime.

I know I might look jobless laikin:
View attachment 775074

Still commendable. Shauq mujhay bhi hai, but I'm too lazy - even posting on PDF is too much of a hassle for me

It'd be cool if we could have a Pakistani company specialize in this area, not just for satellites but EO/IR, HMD/S, and even red-dot sights and rifle scopes.

Where'd you get that PDF?

You do have the likes of Shibli Electronics, although I'm not aware of what they're upto these days.

The only issue is that the defence procurement circles are murky at best and highly corrupt at worse. You need connections with high ups in the services to even get into the business. Not to mention the one thousand security clearances you will need even before you start, with several thousand more to follow for simple tasks such as importing raw materials.

This would explain why some recent entrants in the defence/aerospace businesses are retired military guys and would also explain why people like the Integrated Dynamics CEO and the Azm-engineer-turned-UAV startup guy have been floundering - connections.

Also:
View attachment 775261
Startup idea anyone?

I first found this doc before PakTES was even launched, honestly thought that I'd stumbled upon something that would warrant a Black Vigo at my door

Good read though.

 

[Dazzler]

You guys get offended for no reason. All I said is that a number of satelites had been launched during the PML-N tenure and nothing during the PTI tenure.

I would like to know why because SUPARCO has had a higher budget allocation under PTI than PML-N?

Devote a thread and worship your Main Saanp there instead of ruining every other thread with your usual rants.
Nuff said

 

[Akh1112]

Sadly, I agree. The projects these docs mentioned were good - given that they were properly managed and audited, adequately funded and provided useful deliverables. Obviously, that doesn't usually happen. Whatever projects saw the the light of day probably sit on some computer or filing cabinet, never to be touched again.




That's interesting and may be a cause of hope.

A major question that has always been on my mind though: Do you have any idea if the solid rocket motors for the Shaheen series, etc were actually developed and produced indigenously? Or did we just license-produced them/modified Chinese designs?



Would love to see this Pakistani SLV in my lifetime.



Still commendable. Shauq mujhay bhi hai, but I'm too lazy - even posting on PDF is too much of a hassle for me






You do have the likes of Shibli Electronics, although I'm not aware of what they're upto these days.

The only issue is that the defence procurement circles are murky at best and highly corrupt at worse. You need connections with high ups in the services to even get into the business. Not to mention the one thousand security clearances you will need even before you start, with several thousand more to follow for simple tasks such as importing raw materials.

This would explain why some recent entrants in the defence/aerospace businesses are retired military guys and would also explain why people like the Integrated Dynamics CEO and the Azm-engineer-turned-UAV startup guy have been floundering - connections.



I first found this doc before PakTES was even launched, honestly thought that I'd stumbled upon something that would warrant a Black Vigo at my door

Good read though.

Yeh OPSEC is close to nonexistent, I remember finding some document from AvRID that had some very, very spicy information on it, so much so that I had to report it to them and the paf. It’s pathetic.

 

[Rafi]

This is good, and should be encouraged, but we have access to Chinese satellites, and we give help them with HumINT.

 

[V. Makarov]

Are you not getting data from Chinese military satellites to monitor Indian border? Or you do not trust them to provide full data ?

Freedom has no price. What little open source knowledge I have, is that Chinese satellites monitoring Pak-Ind border are very advanced, and China is nice enough to give full access to that data. However, independence of critical weapon and surveillance systems is imperative.

 

[JamD]

Here's a labelled graphic that I made using my best estimates. Corrections are welcome.

Just realized that this satellite design is very clearly an upgrade of the already launched and locally designed/built PakTES-1A:

Same three panel design with two panels folded. Many of the same components, but a much bigger optical payload. The heritage is obvious. I am glad to see that SUPARCO is doing something worthwhile at least (and not just launching Chinese satellites with one or two Pakistani instruments).

 

[JamD]

Here's a labelled graphic that I made using my best estimates. Corrections are welcome.
View attachment 775048

1. Solar Panels: I have shown these in the deployed position. There are three in total. Two fold out, one is on the "back".
2. Orbit-boosting thruster: I suspect that that is what it is because it is in the center of the satellite. In case you are thinking why it's on the wrong side for boosting the orbit, I believe that the orbit is boosted by changing the attitude first, boosting, then returning to Nadir. Also, no thrusters can be on the bottom (Nadir) of the satellite because that's where the main camera's aperture is and you cannot have thrusters spewing gas and other garbage near it.
3. Attitude-control, cold-gas thrusters: Pretty obvious that these are attitude control thrusters. Again, they have to be on the opposite side of the camera aperture.
4. Nadir-pointing, cold-gas thrusters: Since this satellite needs to point exactly down wherever it is in orbit, it will require constant attitude corrections in one particular direction to keep it pointing down. I believe these are dedicated thrusters for that. This also lets me guess the direction in which the orbit should be:
   View attachment 775044
5. Star Tracker: I believe this is a star tracker because both sensors are pointed away from Earth and this is mounted on the side opposite to the side facing the sun (and therefore the sensor is in shade).
6. Main camera aperture: this is probably where the camera's aperture is. The yellow thing is probably a cover that should not be there in orbit (sorry didn't have time to photoshop it off).
7. Mystery: I honestly don't know what those are, suggestions are welcome. EDIT: These are probably covers for antennae. Thanks to @S A L M A N. for pointing this out.

Some corrections:
4. Is not a cold-gas thruster. It is a set of S and X band antennae. These are probably for transmitting imagery to Earth. So the satellite rotates 180 degrees everytime it needs to transmit images, or maybe it doesn't need to. Are the X and S band antennae on top so that it actually transmits to and from the geostationary PAKSATMM1 (soon to be replaced by PAKSATMM1R)?

 

[Pak Nationalist]

True, I think SQ8 also said something like that. However, my point was related to economics. We may produce our carbon fibre but the plant will cost billions $. So Pak imports it even 3-4 times the price (banned for Pak so through black market).

The high grade lens requires the same pollution control environment as silicon chip making (idk the cost, but check the quality requirement). A little impurity will degrade the lens. Anyway, Pak should consider making glass for solar cells. It can pave way for the other industry.

With the free-falling solar energy tariffs around the world (per some estimates, the solar tariff is now even lower than the hydel around the world ad is expected to fall further with improving PV energy efficiencies), domestic manufacturing sector that is starved of cheap energy supplies that make it more competitive, it makes sense to get on the solar train as early as possible to reap the first mover's advantage amongst the emerging economies. Fortunately enough, even if other things did not go Pakistan's way in the 10th CPEC JCC, there was agreement on assisting Pakistan in setting up the solar cell and semiconductor manufacturing facilities locally. We must move on these fronts quickly to develop domestic production capacity, achieve economies of scale to further reduce the price of locally made PV cells, and encourage the setting up of solar farms to influence our exorbitant power tariffs.