Pakistan: Redefining Nationhood and concept of 'Citizen'

[Desert Fox]

I read your post, I just assumed you were referring to something else when mentioning geographical differences and that it was not the factor you viewed with the most importance.

You assumed wrong. I mentioned several factors, not just one.

No, it would be inconsistent if I did not clearly state that I changed my stance.

Not necessarily, because you clearly stated you believe that a "Pakistani is anyone who is born in Pakistan". This is a un-Islamic stance because you lay no religious criteria and agreed that you wouldn't mind if pork consuming atheist Chinese or Hindus became Pakistani citizens through this method.

But then you mention Islamic scholars in the same breath and how you want to work towards a united Ummah , with whom? Atheist Chinese and Hindus?

No consistency at all.

No, if you actually understood the argument you'd know it doesn't apply in this case.

And you are the one to decide that? According to which golden rule engraved in what stone?

So in your plan we achieve an Ummah nation by allowing Atheist & Hindu children born in Pakistan to be become its citizens?

It's hard to take you seriously if you cannot grasp such basic ideas

Yes, I cannot grasp your inconsistency. You are playing Ataturk and Anjem Chaudhry all in one role.

If you want to argue why Muslims should be not be unified under one nation, be my guest,

Nope, that's not what I'm advocating. If you would stop assuming my position and let me explain:

I believe the only way for Muslim countries to uplift themselves is through internal reformation which is only possible by putting those in power who can be held to account but who will also have a sense of responsibility and obligation to their Nation. Obviously there is no fool proof system out there because human beings are imperfect. Anyone offering a utopian solution is a liar and scam artist.

If one Nation rises this will naturally cause a domino effect and one by one other's will also be inspired, or if not at the least they will seek to cooperate with a strong Muslim country. But all of this is only possible if internal reformations take place where systems that enable corrupt individuals to take power are removed and in their place strict spiritual and physically demanding systems of merit are put in place.

but that's a separate topic entirely and from an Islamic perspective, your view has no basis.

On the contrary my view is grounded within Islam. None of the great leaders of Islamic history were selected based on a piece of paper (citizenship through birthright) or mass voting. They were leaders in every sense and proved their merit through their actions. And my definition of Nation is also more in line with Islam than yours which is a Liberal man made concept.

No, it's clearly you who doesn't understand.

No, you're pointing out what you THINK are contradictions because you don't understand what I've written.

Okay then my apologies for not being able to comprehend your utopian vision of a Islamic Ummah where Hindus and Chinese atheists are welcome and are equal citizens with Muslims. This is exactly what Prophet Muhammad (SAW) would have wanted.

Yes you did:

Must I school you too?

"For the male subject, the final phase to go through in order to obtain the status of citizen is voluntary military service. Because it is voluntary it will naturally weed out those who are truly committed to the well-being of the nation, and thus are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, from those who are not."

You did not mention another way for foreigners to become citizens

I never said the military process was for foreigners. Go and check what I said. This time I'm not going to point it out for you. If you still fail to comprehend what I wrote then God help you.

I'm not afraid, I just recognise it as a waste of time.

You made a claim and you won't even let it stand on its own merit because not even you believe it.

I could literally say the exact same thing about creating a unified Muslim nation.

Except that you can't because there is no historical precedence of Muslims (Salafis in your case) living side by side with Hindus and pork eating Atheists and allowing their sons and daughters to marry them.

Not sure where you got this concept of Ummah from. In this instance you have a lot in common with @jamahir and @Krishnan in their vision of a society where hindus, Muslims and atheists have no distinctions and live side by side and mix into them.

Stop acting as if my previous stance is the same as my current one, my current stance is anyone with Pakistani citizenship is a Pakistani.

The fact that you even have two stances proves your inconsistency and self contradiction.

 

[baapu]

On the contrary my view is grounded within Islam.

All nonsense.
First you have to prove there is such a thing as "nation" in Islam before you can provide evidence based on that.

 

[Hamza913]

I mentioned several factors, not just one.

That's literally what I assumed.

Not necessarily, because you clearly stated you believe that a "Pakistani is anyone who is born in Pakistan". This is a un-Islamic stance because you lay no religious criteria and agreed that you wouldn't mind if pork consuming atheist Chinese or Hindus became Pakistani citizens through this method.

But then you mention Islamic scholars in the same breath and how you want to work towards a united Ummah , with whom? Atheist Chinese and Hindus?

No consistency at all.

I already told you, I changed my stance. A Pakistani is someone with Pakistani citizenship, stop using my previous stance. It's not un-Islamic at all, Pakistan is a country and has nothing to do with Islam, if Pakistan was actually an Islamic country the discussion would be different, but Pakistan is only an Islamic Republic by name.

If Pakistan were to become an Islamic country, then all non-Muslims could still become citizens but they would be dhimmis, which prevents them from enforcing their ideology over the rest of us (this would be the ideal situation in my eyes, but it's not currently feasible).

I cannot grasp your inconsistency

Call it whatever you want, but you cannot grasp it.

I never said the military process was for foreigners.

What else would you call someone who is not a Pakistani citizen?

You made a claim and you won't even let it stand on its own merit because not even you believe it.

If it bothers you so much you can start a thread on it.

The fact that you even have two stances proves your inconsistency and self contradiction.

Again, not at all, because I clearly said that I changed my stance.

 

[baapu]

In light of the recent --blah blah blah and garbage nonsense I will make up and defend and express my ignorance, prejudices and utter lack of any sensibilities and write a long article to sound like a article without substance.


@Psychic @Indus Pakistan @Taimur Khurram @Maarkhoor

Here is who is a real citizen of Pakistan.

Citizenship of Pakistan
There are three categories of declared citizens of Pakistan including citizens by birth, by descent and by migration, which are briefly mentioned below. (Please see relevant sections of Pakistan citizenship Act, 1951 for details)
(i) Citizens by Birth.
(ii) Citizens by Descent.
(iii) Citizens by Migration.
(i) Citizen by Birth:

Persons who or any of their parents or grand parents were born in the territories now included in Pakistan before the commencement of citizenship Act, 1951 are citizens of Pakistan.
Any person born in Pakistan after the commencement of Pakistan Citizenship Act, 1951 is citizen of Pakistan. Children of foreign diplomats and children of enemy alien born in Pakistan are not included in this category. Persons, who migrated from territories of Pakistan to other areas of Indo-Pakistan sub-continent for permanent stay after March, 1947 shall also be not considered citizens of Pakistan.
(ii) Citizen by Descent:

Children of Pakistanis who are born outside of Pakistan are citizens by descent. If the parent of such child is a citizen by descent himself/herself (as born outside of Pakistan) the child is required to be registered in the nearest consulate or Pakistani mission.
Children born to Pakistani mother and foreign national father, after 18.04.2000, are treated as citizens of Pakistan.
(iii) Citizen by Migration:

The persons who migrated to Pakistan from the territories in the indo-Pakistan subcontinent before the commencement of Pakistan Citizenship Act, 1951 are declared citizens of Pakistan.

In addition people may be granted citizenship.

Grant of Citizenship
Persons who can acquire citizenship of Pakistan after applying in prescribed manner are mentioned as under:-
(Type of Application Form and a list of documents required for submission of such application are provided under each category of entitled persons.) A brief description of prossessing of application is also given below.
A Categories:
(i) Foreign Ladies Married to Pakistani Nationals.
(ii) Commonwealth Citizens who Transfer Rs.5/- Million worth of Foreign Exchange.
(iii) Persons holding Naturalization Certificate issued under the Naturalizatio Act, 1926 (Sec. 9 of PCA 1951).
(iv) Minor Children (below 21 years of Age) of Pakistan Citizen.

Now grow up and get some education.

 

[Psychic]

Here is who is a real citizen of Pakistan.

In addition people may be granted citizenship.


Now grow up and get some education.

There is a court interpretation of citizenship act according to which Afghan refugees cannot be granted citizenship. In the presence of this precedent, for Afghans to hold green passports, legal amendment with 2/3rd majority in parliament is needed.

COMMENTS

With the above we have come to know three things.

1. The definition of the statute in section 4 is plain and allows all citizens born in Pakistan on the principle of JUS SOLI which means if any person whose parents are non-Pakistanis is born in Pakistan then he is deemed a citizen of Pakistan.

2. That this Law cannot be applied on Afghan refugees since refugees are registered under the foreigner act and since the person as registered a refugee had attained the rights of a refugee as allotted by the state and UNHCR and the UN convention thus he is not entitled to citizenship as one seeking citizenship must either go through the process of naturalization or must be born within the soil of Pakistan.

3. The distinction was solidified by highlighting the rights of refugees and those of a citizens and how refugees by every definition are temporary of stay and this cannot be transferred into citizenship as well as the court laid down that a long stay of a foreigner in a foreign country does not automatically convert him to be a citizen of the said country unless he acquired nationality by process of law.

These three things laid down explain the law relating to citizenship as well as the right of a refugee and a foreigner.

I would like to bring forth another case law in Peshawar high court.

Ghulam Sanai vs. The Assistant Director, National Registration Office, Peshawar and another

FACTS

The petitioner contended that since his father and he himself have been living in Pakistan for a long time, proven with the provision of sale deeds of property purchased and seek to remain in Pakistan thus are entitled to citizenship and thus the revoked NIC should be reinstated. The respondent pointed out that to obtain NIC the petitioner had provided false information and when the falsity came to light, the NIC were revoked. The petitioners pointed out the section 3,4,5 of the citizenship act of 1951.

JUDGMENT

The court perused the record and afforded the judgment that Sections 4 and 5 of the Act ibid read together would provide that every person born in Pakistan after the commencement of the Act shall be a citizen of Pakistan by birth and subject to the provisions of section 3 a person born after the commencement of the Act shall be a citizen of Pakistan by descent, if his father is a citizen of Pakistan at the time of his birth. Haji Ghulam Sakhi father of the petitioner an Afghan refugee, on false information managed to obtain the National Identity Card and Pakistan Passport which have been cancelled. The petitioner and his father has also purchased immovable property at Peshawar. Their stance is that they have been living in Pakistan since long and intend to remain in Pakistan, therefore, they have become Pakistan national. Para. 2 of the rejoinder to the comments filed by the petitioner is reproduced below:-- "2. The corresponding para. 2 of the writ petition is correct. Copies of the sales deed are Annexure 'A' and 'B' to the writ petition is a proof of the fact that the father of the petitioner is living in Pakistan since long and they have the intention to remain in Pakistan." The long stay of a foreigner in a foreign country would not automatically convert him to be the citizen of that country unless he acquires the nationality by process of law. The Afghan refugees have been provided refuge in Pakistan temporarily and they being not the citizen of Pakistan are governed by the Foreigners Act, 1946 (Act XXXI of 1946) and not by the provisions of Citizenship Act which is not applicable to them. According to the definition of 'Foreigner' given in section 2(a) of the Act (XXXI of 1946), 'Foreigner means a person who is not a citizen of Pakistan' hence an Afghan refugee being a foreigner and not a citizen of Pakistan cannot be issued a National Identity Card under section 4 of the National Registration Act, 1973 (Act LVI of 1973) which can only be issued to Pakistani citizens.

COMMENTS

The court laid down the principle that in case of citizenship by descent his father must be a citizen of Pakistan and since the father was an afghan refugee and was under the law of refugees as well as the foreigners act rather than the citizenship laws and thus was not entitled to citizenship. The court also pointed out that simple longevity of stay of a foreigner does not allow him the right of citizenship unless he takes naturalization through proper legal channels.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-law-behind-citizenship-in-pakistan.577696/

 

[baapu]

There is a court interpretation of citizenship act according to which Afghan refugees cannot be granted citizenship. In the presence of this precedent, for Afghans to hold green passports, legal amendment with 2/3rd majority in parliament is needed.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-law-behind-citizenship-in-pakistan.577696/

Wow . OK. I am shocked that atleast there is some people on this forum from Pakistan who are not utter stupid. for that commendations.

Now for the judgement. You are correct in one aspect , most court judgements on such procedures require amendments to the law.
The rest is according to my interpretation of law and this judgement. So may be subjective to your interpretation:

IMHO this verdict is incomplete. The case appears to be about a person applying for citizenship thinking since he is born in Pakistan he is eligible. The court ruling simply says that's incorrect and he has to go thru the law/ legal process to get citizenship.

court laid down that a long stay of a foreigner in a foreign country does not automatically convert him to be a citizen of the said country unless he acquired nationality by process of law.

So if the government agrees , He (all afghan refugees ) can apply thru the "Grant of citizenship" and naturalization process. The court's opinion is merely procedural, (i,e procedure followed by the person isn't correct). it doesnt say "Aghanistans people / refugees cant get citizenship in Pakistan). No change in law is required.

Grant of Citizenship
Persons who can acquire citizenship of Pakistan after applying in prescribed manner are mentioned as under:-
(Type of Application Form and a list of documents required for submission of such application are provided under each category of entitled persons.) A brief description of prossessing of application is also given below.
A Categories:
(i) Foreign Ladies Married to Pakistani Nationals.
(ii) Commonwealth Citizens who Transfer Rs.5/- Million worth of Foreign Exchange.
(iii) Persons holding Naturalization Certificate issued under the Naturalizatio Act, 1926 (Sec. 9 of PCA 1951).
(iv) Minor Children (below 21 years of Age) of Pakistan Citizen.

 

[Psychic]

No one is saying give EVERYONE citizenship...When you agree to it then only one can regulate it...And it would be easier to track your own citizen than "an alien" without NIC/ TAX PAPERS/ ANY FORM OF DOCUMENTS in your offices! IF these people are granted citizenship they will need documents and you can trace them! To open a business/ bank account they need NADRA and if our system comes in place they wont be able to run from taxes if their business thrives...They will have an address in Pakistan that you can go to, govt will have the rights to seize their properties BECAUSE they are Pakistani citizens...Right now we cant touch them...They are either protected by international laws as REFUGEE without documents OR protected by Afghan crying foul that we harm their people!

We haven't learnt anything from Dhaka debacle 1971, have we?
Are we heading towards Peshawar debacle 2031?
Or towards Quetta debacle 2031? The Baloch fear becoming a minority in their own province, you better convince them not to take up arms again.

Afghans claim some 100,740 sq km of Pakistani territory as theirs and are bound to cause mischief.
Do you posses mind reading abilities as to determine which Afghan refugee believes in loy Afghanistan and which one doesn't? Their race or language matters little to me, what matters is their loyalty which right now is questionable.

And it would be easier to track your own citizen than "an alien" without NIC/ TAX PAPERS/ ANY FORM OF DOCUMENTS in your offices! IF these people are granted citizenship they will need documents and you can trace them!

No one is saying give EVERYONE citizenship

Why not give it to everyone then? You just contradicted yourself.

They don't live without registration anyways.

Wow . OK. I am shocked that atleast there is some people on this forum from Pakistan who are not utter stupid. for that commendations.

Now for the judgement. You are correct in one aspect , most court judgements on such procedures require amendments to the law.
The rest is according to my interpretation of law and this judgement. So may be subjective to your interpretation:

IMHO this verdict is incomplete. The case appears to be about a person applying for citizenship thinking since he is born in Pakistan he is eligible. The court ruling simply says that's incorrect and he has to go thru the law/ legal process to get citizenship.


So if the government agrees , He (all afghan refugees ) can apply thru the "Grant of citizenship" and naturalization process. The court's opinion is merely procedural, (i,e procedure followed by the person isn't correct). it doesnt say "Aghanistans people / refugees cant get citizenship in Pakistan). No change in law is required.

· The court was pointed to the issue of Afghan refugees where the court held that there existed a difference in its words as such that Court further confirms the said view taken in another case of Peshawar bench PLD 1999 Pesh 18 on an additional reason on the point that any person, who born in Pakistan becomes citizen of Pakistan on plain reading of section 4 of The Pakistan Citizenship Act, 1951 except the refugees, who have already taken up refuge temporarily in Pakistan and as such their stay is recognized under UNHCR. The status of refugees has to be considered under United Nations Convention 1951(came into force on 23.04.1954), which was prepared and debated in the aftermath of second world war mainly on the context of thousands of displaced people in Europe. In 1967 protocol was added to it extending definition of refugees to non-European and to people forced to seek refuge because of events took place after 1945, therefore, this Court has to go through the definition of refugees defined in the said convention, which is as follow:-
“A person who has a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion and who is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence…is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.” The above referred definition gives rise to certain important ingredients of term “well-founded fear of persecution”, therefore, the international convention recognized the status of refugees, although in Pakistan, there is no separate law in this regard but Pakistan being signatory to UN Convention, therefore, any person, who has been declared refugee under UNHCR in Pakistan, is entitled to equal treatment with national of the country vis-à-vis his other rights although some social services have been provided in Pakistan on government level but once a person has been declared refugee he cannot claim benefit under The Pakistan Citizenship Act, 1951 in any manner and his status cannot be converted to any other position except he has been granted freedom of movement, residence permit, protection of law and in some cases entitled for employment in private business and jobs except government authorities. He is also entitled to have medical services and right to education. Except the refugees (especially Afghan refugees) any other person who born in Pakistan shall be considered citizen of Pakistan in terms of section 4 of the act and his case has to be considered under rule 8 of The Pakistan Citizenship Rules, 1952, which reads as under

 

[baapu]

View attachment 500926

They are not claiming benefit thru citizenship act ( they are not automatically citizens ) They are applying thru naturalization act 1926

 

[Desert Fox]

I already told you, I changed my stance.

For this reason your position cannot be taken seriously because you change it like night changes to day.

You went from advocating the status quo Liberal position ("a Pakistani is anyone born in Pakistan") to then lecturing me on Ummah and religious views, and when i pointed out your contradictory stance you abandon ship and jump on to another vague stance "a Pakistani is anyone with Pakistani citizenship".

Don't expect me to address your "stance" when you don't have one, jumping from one position to another.

PS "citizenship" is also bida, it's a Western concept and did not exist during the time of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). Did not your scholars give you a history lesson?

All nonsense.
First you have to prove there is such a thing as "nation" in Islam before you can provide evidence based on that.

"Oh mankind, We have created you all male and female and have made you nations and tribes so that you would recognize each other. The most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most pious of you. God is All-knowing and All-aware."- 49:13

"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Lo! herein indeed are signs for men of knowledge."- 30:22

 

[Dubious]

We haven't learnt anything from Dhaka debacle 1971, have we?
Are we heading towards Peshawar debacle 2031?
Or towards Quetta debacle 2031? The Baloch fear becoming a minority in their own province, you better convince them not to take up arms again.

I thought army was dealing with Baloch!

Afghans claim some 100,740 sq km of Pakistani territory as theirs and are bound to cause mischief.
Do you posses mind reading abilities as to determine which Afghan refugee believes in loy Afghanistan and which one doesn't? Their race or language matters little to me, what matters is their loyalty which right now is questionable.

It is simple give them PR and track their progress...If they err punish them coz they are Pakistani PR ....However, you cant punish Afghani citizens coz they dont belong to your nor your law! You have to return them to Afghanistan who cant take care of them nor stop them from crossing the border again! So best way is give them PR to track and punish if they err!

Why not give it to everyone then? You just contradicted yourself.

I didnt contradict myself from the beginning I have been questioning all those who claim in hysteria that citizenship will be given to everyone! I am not for it! I believe if my state wants to give them there will be a process/procedure not blindly....I think what the problem here is many Pakistanis dont believe in their laws...They may be loyal to the word Pakistan but dont really believe in the laws and implementation nor do they believe in the govt. Coz otherwise why wouldnt you think the govt ACTUALLY has a plan?

They don't live without registration anyways.

Then why call them alien/ illegal?

 

[Hamza913]

PS "citizenship" is also bida, it's a Western concept and did not exist during the time of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). Did not your scholars give you a history lesson?

I don't think you understand what a bid'ah is.

 

[Psychic]

If they err punish them coz they are Pakistani PR ....However, you cant punish Afghani citizens coz they dont belong to your nor your law! You have to return them to Afghanistan

Who says so?

I thought army was dealing with Baloch!

Dealing with?
Why not deal with Afghan refugees...once and for all...

Instead of "dealing with" our own, we should have been trying to resolve our internal disputes.
Not starting a civil war in the love of foreigners.

 

[Dubious]

Who says so?

Laws...I know Pakistan is slightly slow when it comes to understanding laws...But international laws wont let us "punish" "illegal aliens" ESP without proof...and if we have proof we are to hand them over to their respective countries WITH THE PROOF.....and you think Afghanistan will punish them?

Why not deal with Afghan refugees...once and for all...

Because refugee status is not the same as citizen....Refugees are protected by international laws!

Instead of "dealing with" our own, we should have been trying to resolve our internal disputes.

Instead of dealing with our own? We should be dealing with our own...If we dont deal with them who the hell are we supposed to deal with? Dreaming of dealing on international laws is only dreamable ESP a state that cant even deal with their own?

Not starting a civil war in the love of foreigners.

Civil war has already been going on for decades! With landlords/ feudal lords suppressing half interior Sindhi and interior Punjabis and Baloch feeling suppressed every now and then!

 

[Psychic]

Laws...I know Pakistan is slightly slow when it comes to understanding laws...But international laws wont let us "punish" "illegal aliens" ESP without proof...and if we have proof we are to hand them over to their respective countries WITH THE PROOF.....and you think Afghanistan will punish them?

Law of the land applies. What you are saying sounds like BS, an Afghan violates traffic signal and we hand him over to Afghan govt with proof

Refugees are usually deported after they have served their sentence.

"Traumatised" refugee punished less for raping his new neighbours
Pakistani state has also punished Afghan refugees involved in crimes and terrorism.
What makes you think we spare them when we don't spare our own

Because refugee status is not the same as citizen....Refugees are protected by international laws!

Dreaming of dealing on international laws is only dreamable ESP a state that cant even deal with their own?

We have been dealing with international laws but then the soft hearted Khan came in.
https://www.dw.com/en/afghan-refugees-in-pakistan-face-mass-deportation/a-42167366

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/07/05/bava-j05.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-strengthen-eu-migration-policy-a6840521.html

https://www.business-standard.com/a...fugees-in-8-months-report-117021300413_1.html

They need to go back to their land which they love so much...and leave ours which they hate so much.

Instead of dealing with our own? We should be dealing with our own...If we dont deal with them who the hell are we supposed to deal with? Dreaming of dealing on international laws is only dreamable ESP a state that cant even deal with their own?

That is the mentality why our own have to pick up weapons against the injustices of the state.
Ab ap ki insaniyat ghaas charne chali gaye hay?
Baloch have genuine concerns, their land is the most underdeveloped, they don't have schools, hospitals even SuiGas and now they face threat of turning a minority in their own land...Even CPEC projects have been diverted to Punjab by Ganja Bradran. And you want us to deal with those which you perhaps think are sub-humans.

Civil war has already been going on for decades! With landlords/ feudal lords suppressing half interior Sindhi and interior Punjabis and Baloch feeling suppressed every now and then!

Which civil war?
That is a very weird statement. Not a civil war (unless mazaras launch an uprising).
I am talking about real civil war like one in FATA/Balochistan.

You allow a fifth column in your country and get ready to reap what you want to sow.
These people hate Pakistan and Punjab.
A decade down the line and we will witness a PTM/TTP style rebellion by Afghans when their numbers swell.

But it's useless trying to convince you since you want to "deal with" our own and at the same time your heart bleeds for people who are the most anti-Pakistan people on earth...Apne logo ke concerns sunno, instead of playing humanity humanity in the name of refugees.
@Desert Fox @django

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Pak is more like a Saltanat where different Millets live together under a strong Devlet with a strong Ordu...