Pakistan: Redefining Nationhood and concept of 'Citizen'

[Desert Fox]

You want it to be personal for refugees who are not even citizens but it cant be personal for those who are citizens (me)?

Interesting...


My Pakistan was 1980s Pakistan child! Not today's monster!


And here we thought you were open to discussion, I didnt know you meant only agreeing to your POV and not providing another side to the story


I didnt say that the term needs to change I said it is derogatory....Like when one says xyz is a bad word does it mean I need to take it up with someone? It is just letting you know it isnt something someone wants to be! They happen to be in a situation and it is not something ANYONE WANTS!


No, I am hinting you with reality checks...You cant have devils under your cloak and point fingers elsewhere! There are evil people in every flock doesnt make the whole flock wrong / bad...If yes then that makes you no different than a child who is told so!


Where did you get that idea? Just coz I wrote it, it has to be me? Instead I wrote it to address your points...We arent a Nation yet so crying about this and that doesnt make sense!


IK won but that doesnt invalidate the fact that there were many against him because of the sole reason that he is Pukhtoon!


You wanted to know what makes a Nation oh I forgot only you can suggest what makes a Nation not others, right...


Yes there are such people....For you there are many different kinds of Pakistanis but somehow the same doesnt apply to Afghans?


Your post about National identity is an emotion/ feeling of belonging, if not writing about an emotion then what am I supposed to write about? And if you felt there were emotions in my text than your other accusations like "emotional tantrums" is invalid, no?


And exactly how can you claim this system to achieve best results? You dont really have a case without any examples! I gave you examples of Durrani (by name) and other ex generals and politicians (by position)....When you have examples that failed while being part of your example, how can you claim it is best? What are you comparing it to?


AGAIN it isnt the best. You cant claim it the best when you havent compared it to anything else...In your mind it is the only one...I am asking you to broaden that narrowed mindset!

You havent given them citizenship but you already closed the case by saying they will fail while those who went through the said "military" failed the nation....yet you claim it the best?

It isnt about life....When you have been dehumanized you dont really have much regard of life...When you have seen enough death in your own family ...your life is the least of your worries! Joining the army comes natural...killing those responsible or even being brainwashed by xyz as to who is responsible can become confusing! Learn a bit of psychology apparently the terrorists seem to ace that field and lure people to join them!


You didnt have to say you tried to show it via Bangladesh breaking off from us!


Again you think ALL AFGHANI are ANA members? You seem to think it is synonym...You seem to think ONLY ANA are getting citizenship...You diminish individual Afghani people and their ordeals!


If that was the case wouldnt we all be Indonesian? After all the majority of Muslim live on those islands and Indonesia is claimed to be the most populated Muslim "NATION"....Religion is not the same as Nation and it is also not the same as UMMAH...each has its own meanings and circumference!


This is against history...It is well documented fact that when Arab traders traveled they settled down in the new lands and married into the locals! So there is no delusion on the part of SOME families who can be Arabs through their paternal heritage and locals through their maternal heritage....Those Arab traders journeyed for YEARS and some DID settle down in the new found lands/ populations! So denying someone their Arab heritage and dismissing it as inferiority complex is historically inaccurate!

And ONLY claiming that the IVC is the only heritage of Pakistan is again wrong, Moguls came to this land, Iran were in and out of this land...there was trade from every corners on this land...You cant really find EXCLUSIVE IVC ONLY DNA....if you can that prob is due to some repeated cousin marriage because everyone has some form of mixture from somewhere!


And the people we plan to give citizenship to are people who havent gone to BD school coz they were too busy being refugee on our lands!


I aint speaking on your behalf just countering your BS!


And many a times Pakistanis get citizenship in West even after they came for economic reasons but managed to weed into the countries! If you are good why worry? If you are shady then you should worry!


At 1 point you claim they come for economic reasons but love their land still...When I say if that is the case do you think they will take our citizenship offer? And somehow questioning your wild thoughts shows how senseless it really is, right?

If they are so madly in love with their countries why would they take the citizenship offer? It is a valid question! Pakistan isnt UK that people would die to come here and have its citizenship! They would only take it if they are desperate or have no where to go....

I did offer solutions ...there are soo many of these threads where the same issue is being discussed but they must have passed over your head as usual ...no worries I dont mind repeating myself!

Here is what I suggested: Give them permanent residence status...


So hurling out refugees who ran away from a bad situation to get a better situation will hack their own leg (poun par khulhara?) Obviously those running away from misery will work for a better life...And if you dont help those in need you are nothing less of a tyrant...Real humanity is helping one when you are in power....


I have provided solutions...FIX YOUR OWN SHIT FIRST before pointing fingers...If our law and order was in place there would be fewer problems and fewer people who would make problems!


Wow you read America and disconnect it from the sentence and cry this strawman BS again and again? Read the whole sentence...It is about policy and ours has been pleasing AMERICA for a long time now! THAT is in context! Seems like you cant even read a full sentence before jumping to conclusions?! (THIS is an observation...I have to write it out since you will just cry about this also)


It is not my personal definition it is a well documented word used very loosely!

Have already done that in the past!


I am to do that? You are the one who suggested it has no flaws I only pointed that it does...and by asking about solutions you admitted it does have flaws and isnt the measure of loyalty!


Obligations are obligations...Petty for you but litterbugs have also caused blockage of sewage and other problems that costs money to fix ....money that could be spent elsewhere had the people decency to keep the place clean! You laugh at "flaws" of the citizens but spit if "would be citizens" have flaws? THAT ladies and gentlemen itself is called biasedness!


You didnt give any solution on how to get quality except military service which I already showed you isnt a guarantee of quality!

Umm, no. I'm not going to waste my time on someone who resorts to personal attacks and puts words in my mouth that i didn't say. Bye bye

@Desert Fox Superb post Sir virtually concur with everything you eloquently stated, I will ponder on to one point that generally on PDF the concept of "Ummah" to most Pakistanis is underestimated, if their was no concept of Ummah (on a individual level) then no Afghan would have been permitted to settle here when they were in a dire situation due to the Soviet intervention, without doubt if these folks were Ram Lals/Atheists NO ONE would have opened their homes, villages and workplaces to them, in fact I believe the then government would never have let them in, have these folks reciprocated our generosity, for the most part absolutely NO, yet if today another calamity of the same magnitude occurred (No the Yanks never carpet bombed Afghanistan) I suspect folks will once again open their arms out (half-heartedly I admit) to the Afghans as the spirit of Islamic principles (which defy materialistic capitalistic principles) has tended to heavily shape most of our values ever since the faith was embraced by our forefathers (primarily due to Naqashbandi Saints), in the situation of the Afghans the poor folk of Pakistan tolerated them due to the brutal atheistic occupation of the USSR however when it comes to these Benglerdeshis, virtually every Pakistani has nothing but SHEER and UTTER CONTEMPT for these losers for being here in the first place, these folks are mere "chancers" who have abandoned their own heritage for the Pakistani rupee, nothing more nothing less and any attempt to give citizenship to these folk will prove to be a calamity from which Sindh may never ever recover,,,,,,,I can totally understand your views on conscription however I adamantly believe that soldiering is not just a job but a profession, we need to maintain a strong disciplined professional army only made up of volunteers unless some Herculean calamity arises which requires every man of fighting age to enlist for the defence of the fatherland.Kudos bhai


@Moonlight

Indeed, you are correct and on an individual level yes as Muslims we have a connection with Muslims of other Nations, however in this day and age this remains restricted to individuals and not states. States, whether those of Muslim majority Nations or otherwise, only align with powerful states, and thus we too must become powerful and influential. Only through this can a true Ummah be formed.

Honestly, i believe Afghanistan at some point in the future should be merged with Pakistan because it will be the only way all of this useless animosity and bloodletting between us ans them will end. It will be in the long term interests of both nations.

Those who possess these two traits can sacrify themselves for their nation regardless of low satisfied or dissatisfied they are materially.

Indeed, true.

 

[Psychic]

You sound as though citizenship is being forced upon these refugee...I hope in near future you never have to label yourself or your descendants as refugee...The label itself is derogatory...it strips rights off the people and makes them a mass/ bunch of nobodies! The refugees (if you have even taken 1 course on studies related to people on conflict land you would learn a lot!) are not willingly on our land and the reason for a refugee is a temporary asylum/ protection (which Islam itself also dictates).....But the war in Afghanistan has crossed generations! This word doesnt fit them any longer....Like frustrated Pakistanis there are an ever growing frustrated Afghanistanis....

As for defining Nation is tough in Pakistan...Its 70+ yrs old and people will no sooner call themselves Punjabi, Balouchi, Sindhi, Pukhtoon than to call themselves Pakistani....They have an attachment to a limited part of Pakistan and MANY cant seem to see any link between themselves and the "others"....THIS IS A PROBLEM! A problem that arises as embarassment for 2 Ramadan dates, 2 Eid-ul-Fitr, 2 Eid-Ul-Adha....and by extension the same people who live in the west instead of following their moon/ council will follow the decision of that back home making sure the split is across oceans!

What defines a Nation was already stated when Pakistan was born now if people cant digest that 70+ yrs on then THERE REALLY IS A PROBLEM! This problem is the reason we are not united....The same problem was apparent when a Khan was to be PM? I literally heard many people stating how can we vote for a Pakhtoon...He was seen as a Pakhtoon first before a Pakistani and his philanthropist side was ignored altogether.

You want to know what makes a Nation? Ask those who dont have a country to go to (Palestinians) or one who is beaten on their own land (Kashmiri) or people who are denied rights based on their colour no matter what they do (American Africans). Ask people who had to struggle for the word Nation not people who got it free as a birth right!


I beg to differ on this part....If the differences had been reconciled...then why in Karachi a Sindhi will blame a Pukhtoon for taking his job while a Pukhtoon will blame a Punjabi for killing his xyz relative? The blame game is incredible!

If differences were reconciled why was it hard for many Punjabis to understand Khan a pukhtoon had won elections?

I can also give you examples in academia in famous universities where Professor level people literally claim words like we dont allow Pukhtoon in our department or "thank god we dont have Sindhi".....generalizing insults for whole communities and "nations" still happens at the highest of levels so what can one expect from the average Joe in Pakistan?


Your point is flawed....Based on military alone you cant judge anything! I mean we have Durrani ex ISI leader who was born and bred on this land/ was a citizen and worked his way up the ranks and still chose to turn his back on us.....We have plenty of these kinds....So asking who will fight for which land really isnt a criteria of any form to judge anything! Coz if it was none of those who are in security positions - retired generals/ ISI related people/ politicians would back-stab us coz after all by your definition they passed the test of loyalty when they were in uniform, right?


Ummah is not synonym to same land nor synonym to 1 country.....Ummah is larger than that...it is not material like land/ country....it is a feeling of belonging or like minds... Under the Ummah banner 5-6 countries of different backgrounds can be closely knit based on a common goal say Islam...In the WEST it was Anti USSR/ Pro America...When you come together coz of Islam you are Ummah when you dont see eye to eye doesnt make you less part of anything....Just coz Bangladesh chose to become another country it is not failure of Ummah or anything but a choice...Ummah doesnt diminish such choices nor does it dictate joint at the hip!

Historical identity would make sense if one knew their history and didnt always claim to be from Arab or Iran and always deny their own Hindu ancestors! In Pakistan one would deny their Indian ancestor to be part of this Nation...But DNA doesnt lie...I am not saying EVERYONE...but SOME! It seems to have become a calling card to reject Indian ancestry.....


No 3 generations makes them belong.....3 generations in UK and the 3rd generation calls him/herself as British Pakistani not just Pakistani ....the same 3rd generation ALSO gets the shock of their lives when they are married in Pakistan to a Pakistani from Pakistan....

As for the rape and kill....To my understanding in state of war a lot of shit goes down and we all know no one is an angel...blaming 1 side is disturbing! I know Bangladeshi families who migrated to West Pakistan when Bangladesh got independence...Imagine, being Eastern Pakistani with different identity their whole lives and they were Pakistani overnight! So 3rd generation of being in Pakistan....they def deserve more...

Did these 3rd generation do that crime? If they didnt why put it on them? Or ask them to speak for crimes they didnt commit nor were born when happened?! It is like asking you about Adam AS's "apple eating" mistake...you werent present! Or Nabi yusuf's choice to run away from his task and end up in the belly of the fish? Or ask you about what some Khalifah were thinking when they were building castles and keeping concubines which was against Islam? Any of these got anything to do with you? No...Were you asked when these blunder were committed? No! Then how can you lay this upon them?


You dont know their minds... You cant speak on their behalf! Citizenship is a choice...not a forced identity! If that is in their mind they wont go for citizenship, but you assuming so much is really showing more about you than them!


Sure how is it of the Nation's interest to look like a tyrant? How is it the Nation's interest to soil our image? This nation has not had a proper policy that it has followed, not our foreign policy where we bend it to fit America, not our internal policies where law and order is a myth so what kind of policy are you addressing for this?


We do have a word for it...We attribute it to the West...it is called 3rd class citizen...where you are a Muslim but not allowed to practice it openly


I would suggest first teaching our own "citizens" the meaning of cleanliness and that SHOULD be a part of our national identity!


This is good in theory but not in practice...Our own general is sitting in exile...We have Durrani from ex ISI who is running away from justice....So far military didnt teach these kinds how to own what wrong they did so how can you assure that a refugee who has seen enough turmoil his whole life hasnt already gone through something similar?


Ohh I didnt know we had angels in Pakistan...I mean every Pakistani isnt an abuser no all are lovely men who never beat their wives or cause them harm...Poor lady would have live with a total asshole just to prove she is loyal? WOW! That sure isnt Pakistan but some crooked fantasy of yours I bet!


And where is the obligations for the citizens who leave trash in touristic places or even a simple park? Who is tracking that?

This is becoming absurd!
I dont think we have any clause in the constitution that checks on who your spouse is!


If that is what you want, get the courts in order...Because there is a lot of quality controlling that needs to be done!

Give it a thought.
https://metro.co.uk/2015/12/02/this...ake-you-think-about-your-friendships-5538469/

 

[Dubious]

Give it a thought.
https://metro.co.uk/2015/12/02/this...ake-you-think-about-your-friendships-5538469/

Thank you but human beings are not snakes and calling an entire people due to the doings of a handful kind of justifies how West views all Muslims as evil coz "SOME" yell ALLAHU AKHBAR when they kill others?!

No one is saying give EVERYONE citizenship...When you agree to it then only one can regulate it...And it would be easier to track your own citizen than "an alien" without NIC/ TAX PAPERS/ ANY FORM OF DOCUMENTS in your offices! IF these people are granted citizenship they will need documents and you can trace them! To open a business/ bank account they need NADRA and if our system comes in place they wont be able to run from taxes if their business thrives...They will have an address in Pakistan that you can go to, govt will have the rights to seize their properties BECAUSE they are Pakistani citizens...Right now we cant touch them...They are either protected by international laws as REFUGEE without documents OR protected by Afghan crying foul that we harm their people!

Umm, no. I'm not going to waste my time on someone who resorts to personal attacks and puts words in my mouth that i didn't say. Bye bye

Of course not you failed to answer anything ... ADIOS!

 

[El Sidd]

Honestly

For 70 years my father has lived in this country and called a Migrant.

For 17 months i have used PDF and been called sectless casteless Ghetto slum dwelling Migrant.

From being called a false flagger to my tribe being lesser combined to one populist leader for a genuine Critique. By a TT. Who probably knows current President of Pakistan ancestral Home is less than 100km from the Ganges river.

How do you define this? Patriotism?
Not being called son of soil and a Security threat.

 

[Hamza913]

But everyone has a different definition of what it means to be a Pakistani.

Most people have the same definition, the few outliers are irrelevant.

Really? Wow. Which part? Do quote that part and be precise.

However the obvious problem with this concept is that most people migrate to a given nation (legally or illegally) for economic purposes and not out of love for the cultural, historical or ethnic makeup of that particular Nation. An obvious example of this is people who migrate to Western countries. They don't migrate to the West to study the Magna Carta, or to write a scholarly dissertation on Thomas Jefferson's life. They move to the West for its material benefits. Now of course there might be a very small minority of people who might leave their down trodden village in a third world country to move to America or Britain purely to study the Magna Carta or write a scholarly dissertation on Thomas Jefferson's life, but these people are exceptions to the rule and the exception does not define the rule.

Loyalty to material interests does not translate to loyalty to a Nation. To test this theory just ask any Pakistani in the West that in the hypothetical event that their host country goes to war with Pakistan, who's side will they choose? Will they choose the host nation which provides them material comfort? Or will they choose the homeland in which their forefathers are burried and with which they have a historical, cultural and ethnic connection? For most of us the answer is obvious.

Sure, but the fact that he joined Pakistan at one of the most disadvantaged moments in its history from which there was no material benefit to derive, shows that he is a worthy part of what today is the Pakistani Nation.

Pakistan had just started, there was no way to know whether or not it would end up good or bad.

All parts of the world have, doesn't now mean that they shouldn't have National identities, even if those are based on a specific ethnicity.

Ours has had more migrations than most others.

So you think the four dominant ethnic groups that comprise Pakistan do not have a shared history?

So when the Mughals ruled this region Punjabis didn't exist yet? And then when the Brits came the Punjabis appeared from thin air and in their place the Sindhis disappeared?

We have a shared history and identity in many aspects, but in others, not so much.

So if millions of Chinese Atheists who enjoy eating pork and consuming alcohol and deny the existence of God became Pakistani citizens because of a law which you advocate and believe in, and with their citizenship & right to vote began pushing for secularization and lifting of alcohol ban, creation of Casino's, etc., you would be completely okay with that because you believe that all it takes to be a Pakistani is to be born on its soil?

"a Pakistani is someone born and raised in Pakistan"

I would be angry if such a thing occurred, but I wouldn't say they're not Pakistani.

If it's "debatable" than it's vague. How can you establish a law on something that's debatable?

I didn't mean it from a legal perspective, I was saying it based more on most people's general perception.

how can you accept them to be a part of your Nation based simply on a piece of paper that anyone can obtain by simply being born, that too on a particular soil?

Because that's literally what makes someone from a particular country.

Being born on a piece of land isn't exactly a talent.

Hence why nationalism is such a ridiculous concept.

I don't think so. In my interactions with Bangladeshis abroad, they are on average the same as Pakistanis in terms of religiosity, ie they're a mix bag, some are cultural Muslims, others are practicing Muslims, and the in-between etc. Sure, Pakistanis tend to stress the Ummah concept wayyyyy too much, but this is more because of our sentimentalism which no other Muslim Nation, whether Bangladeshis, Arabs, Indonesians or Turks express.

Secondly, being a practicing Muslim doesn't mean negation of ones culture and traditions as long as they are not in conflict with Islam. So if Banglas view themselves as a separate Nation due to cultural and ethnic reasons that doesn't make them bad Muslims when Allah (SAW) Himself states within the Quran that he created mankind in Nations as one of His signs.

The ummah concept is a pivotal part of Islam, anyone who does not believe in it is not regarded as a Muslim, they are merely someone who believes in asabiyah before everything else, and as a result doesn't understand Islam. Practising Muslims all around the globe stress the importance of this concept, it isn't just Pakistanis.

It is regarded as haram by pretty much every major scholar to ever exist for Muslims to divide themselves based on petty ethnic/cultural differences.

True, i see what you mean. So then you agree that a Nigerian cannot un-become his Nigerian identity and replace it with a Pakistani identity because he will always be a Nigerian and thus will always identify as such? And that therefore a piece of paper (citizenship) cannot make him a Pakistani in the truest sense of the word, but only formally?

Yes, I agree it is only formal. Whether or not he identifies as such will vary on an individual basis.

So if you know of a better survey then post it, if not then conduct your poll here and let the expats speak for themselves (its the next best thing, so why not?).

Unfortunately, I don't, but I know for a fact that surveying this forum would not be a good indicator.

From my personal experience its the complete opposite. But then i guess everyone's anecdotal experience is different then.

Agreed.

Lol bhai jaan you don't expect me to go through this thread just to fish for a handful of posts do you? And this is just one of them. There four more threads just as long.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/i-op...citizenships-to-illegal-aliens.577634/page-14

Evidence of some Pakistani members advocating to give citizenship to illegals on the basis of them being Muslims? Because i'm sure that's a far fetched claim. No Pakistani would ever advocate giving citizenship on the basis of Islam (sarcasm).

These people say that being Muslim is part of the reason, but it's not the crux of it. You're acting as if they think that all Muslims should be given Pakistani citizenship, which is not what they're suggesting.

 

[Desert Fox]

For 70 years my father has lived in this country and called a Migrant.

By individuals or the state? If the former then individuals will always say one thing or another.

 

[El Sidd]

By individuals or the state? If the former then individuals will always say one thing or another.

Ofcourse petty individuals but politically motivated charged People with leverage of power.

Thats a combination i would Not wish for any humans.

Ofcourse individuals say and are free to do so. Just like you said abdali was Not a bhangra dancer from multan. But you know Dance is found in one form or another in every culture.

Its all cool.

 

[Desert Fox]

Most people have the same definition, the few outliers are irrelevant.

But people's definitions, whether most or not, are bound to change.

If tomorrow most people think Narendra Modi is the definition of a Pakistani, judging from what you have stated you'd be okay with that.

Pakistan had just started, there was no way to know whether or not it would end up good or bad.

Right, and the fact that the Muhajir in your example made the treacherous journey knowing full well that there is a chance he will lose his life for a country who's future you admit was uncertain and from which there was no material gain proves that this person was committed to the idea of Pakistan its founding forces and thus a worthy citizen.

Ours has had more migrations than most others.

Based on what do you say this? And lets suppose that is true, that's still a weak argument for why we shouldn't have a well grounded Pakistani identity and define what it means to be a Pakistani.

We have a shared history and identity in many aspects, but in others, not so much.

And that's what i stated, because if we were so different from each other (which you claim) then trust me every province of Pakistan would have gotten independence already, either by bullet or ballet.

I would be angry if such a thing occurred, but I wouldn't say they're not Pakistani.

So you would be okay if Chinese Atheists completely altered the nature of Pakistan from an Islamic country to one where God's existence is denied and religion is forbidden in public spaces including public schools where children are taught religion is just a fairy tale? You would be completely okay with raising your children in that environment because you believe all it takes to be a Pakistani is to be born on its soil?

I didn't mean it from a legal perspective, I was saying it based more on most people's general perception.

General perception fluctuates and thus is not a good source to base laws on. If tomorrow the general perception favors gay marriage in Pakistan and teaching children about gay sex like they do in the West, you'd be fine because it's "general perception"?

Because that's literally what makes someone from a particular country.

In your particular definition it does (which is also a Western Liberal man-made definition, is that not haram according to scholars?), but Saudis would disagree with you, Kuwaitis would disagree with you, Chinese would disagree with you, Singaporeans would disagree with you, Koreans would disagree with you, Russians would disagree with you, Japanese would disagree with you.

Hence why nationalism is such a ridiculous concept.

So then why are you advocating giving citizenship based solely on being born on a land then?

The ummah concept is a pivotal part of Islam, anyone who does not believe in it is not regarded as a Muslim, they are merely someone who believes in asabiyah before everything else, and as a result doesn't understand Islam. Practising Muslims all around the globe stress the importance of this concept, it isn't just Pakistanis.

Well, you're arguing the same argument that certain religious scholars made against Pakistan's formation because "it divided the Ummah" which in the Indo-Pak context is Muslims of South Asia.

Also, AFAIK, no one here, certainly not me, stated that Ummah as a concept does not exist. See my previous post in reply to @django

It is regarded as haram by pretty much every major scholar to ever exist for Muslims to divide themselves based on petty ethnic/cultural differences.

But so is your definition of citizenship/becoming a Pakistani. You seem pretty fine with millions of Atheist Chinese becoming Pakistani citizens by birth and changing its laws to acommodate haram things, but you're opposed to Nations which Allah (SWTA) Himself stated he created?

Also, the Muslim world was never a single continuous entity in its history from Senegal in West Africa to Indonesia, from Yemen to Uzbekistan. So historically speaking my argument already has precedence.

Yes, I agree it is only formal. Whether or not he identifies as such will vary on an individual basis.

Right, so then lets suppose hypothetically Nigeria becomes an Indian ally and declares war on Pakistan, why should this Nigerian be loyal to Pakistan if he's only formally Pakistani through the method you advocate (birth on soil)?

Unfortunately, I don't, but I know for a fact that surveying this forum would not be a good indicator.

I disagree because this is an open public forum and not restricted to a certain type of people like soldiers or anyone serving in the military. We have a wide range of Pakistani membership. It is the best indicator because there is no other alternative as you even admitted.

These people say that being Muslim is part of the reason, but it's not the crux of it. You're acting as if they think that all Muslims should be given Pakistani citizenship, which is not what they're suggesting.

That's not how they worded it. I addressed the four common arguments i observed being made and that was one of them. If you don't believe it that's fine too.

Ofcourse petty individuals but politically motivated charged People with leverage of power.

Thats a combination i would Not wish for any humans.

Ofcourse individuals say and are free to do so. Just like you said abdali was Not a bhangra dancer from multan. But you know Dance is found in one form or another in every culture.

Its all cool.

Well, change starts from somewhere and people like that are very common, and trust me i have been at the recieving end of the same too.

@Psychic @Nilgiri @Indus Pakistan @Kabira

 

[El Sidd]

change

I dont wanna listen

 

[Desert Fox]

Of course not you failed to answer anything ... ADIOS!

Sure, now bye bye bibi

 

[Indus Pakistan]

This whole subject is expose of the root cause of Pakistan's problems. I know PM places corruption as No 1 cause of Pakistan's malaise but I place this simple identity issue [which is deeply informed by concept of nationhood] the numer uno problem in Pakistan. At the very basic foundational level it lacks logical or intellectual integrity and like a flawed blueprint it has wreaked havoc on Pakistan. After 70 years we are still rootless and lost. It is the cause behind why brand Pakistan has zero value in the world - indeed quite the opposite it is a minus value.

I agree with some points made by both you gents but profoundly disagree with others @Desert Fox @Taimur Khurram

 

[El Sidd]

This whole subject is expose of the root cause of Pakistan's problems. I know PM places corruption as No 1 cause of Pakistan's malaise but I place this simple identity issue [which is deeply informed by concept of nationhood] the numer uno problem in Pakistan. At the very basic foundational level it lacks logical or intellectual integrity and like a flawed blueprint it has wreaked havoc on Pakistan. After 70 years we are still rootless and lost. It is the cause behind why brand Pakistan has zero value in the world - indeed quite the opposite it is a minus value.

I agree with some points made by both you gents but profoundly disagree with others @Desert Fox @Taimur Khurram

Have you ever done this analysis on yourself before asking Pakistan that it has an identity crisis?

Pakistan is 71 years old.

You are 55.

Please do indulge what makes you Pakistani or british Pakistani or british Muslim or Muslim british or Pakistani british or british Indian.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Have you ever done this analysis on yourself before asking Pakistan that it has an identity crisis?

Pakistan is 71 years old.

You are 55.

Please do indulge what makes you Pakistani or british Pakistani or british Muslim or Muslim british or Pakistani british or british Indian.

Sometimes I wonder even if you know what your talking about. Go register and pay taxes to the government, please !

 

[El Sidd]

Sometimes I wonder even if you know what your talking about. Go register and pay taxes to the government, please !

should i Register as mighty aryan brahmin or play victimizing minor sect and claim genocide points.

Or the last survivors of mehrgarh or gandharan civilisation of noble greek pillagers.

Or the coastal negroids of Balochistan or mongloid like turkic tribe.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

should i Register as mighty aryan brahmin or play victimizing minor sect and claim genocide points.

Or the last survivors of mehrgarh or gandharan civilisation of noble greek pillagers.

Or the coastal negroids of Balochistan or mongloid like turkic tribe.

You had your rant boy. Now go register and pay your tax ..... be halal citizen !