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Pakistan: Redefining Nationhood and concept of 'Citizen'

Naive much? The arguments here are just clinging on to straws to shape a certain outcome! Racial or Ethnic arguments forget that European have been living in the same continent from time immemorial and fighting wars since forever. They not only share boundaries they live among each other so undermining your ethnic groups or their languages is absurd at best. Europe was brought under one rule by Romans as in Pax Romana ... peace, stability and trade! All those different ethnicities and languages. Similarly, by Persians in Asia and later by Islam from west Africa to India under one rule. Nation state is a European argument after first world war to accept different nations at their current or historic boundaries to resolve conflict. This is not a universal solution. Current day India was brought together by the Raj along with so much of British Empire. The best example is of Soviet union that kept so many diverse populations under its control with a hammer and only collapsed when it couldn't bare the human and economic cost of maintaining it's empire. Bengalis, had they ever somehow connected with West Pakistan physically would never have been able to pull off Bengladesh just like Kashmiris or Baloch. Which brings me to the crux the military which is the common denominator in above empires that maintained peace and stability among otherwise warring nations has been a big player in keeping Pakistan's borders current. Islam brings nations together as an idea but it is the military that secures those borders. Question is do current generation of Pakistanis see themselves as an empire or wish one in the future?
 
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@Desert Fox Superb post Sir virtually concur with everything you eloquently stated, I will ponder on to one point that generally on PDF the concept of "Ummah" to most Pakistanis is underestimated, if their was no concept of Ummah (on a individual level) then no Afghan would have been permitted to settle here when they were in a dire situation due to the Soviet intervention, without doubt if these folks were Ram Lals/Atheists NO ONE would have opened their homes, villages and workplaces to them, in fact I believe the then government would never have let them in, have these folks reciprocated our generosity, for the most part absolutely NO, yet if today another calamity of the same magnitude occurred (No the Yanks never carpet bombed Afghanistan) I suspect folks will once again open their arms out (half-heartedly I admit) to the Afghans as the spirit of Islamic principles (which defy materialistic capitalistic principles) has tended to heavily shape most of our values ever since the faith was embraced by our forefathers (primarily due to Naqashbandi Saints), in the situation of the Afghans the poor folk of Pakistan tolerated them due to the brutal atheistic occupation of the USSR however when it comes to these Benglerdeshis, virtually every Pakistani has nothing but SHEER and UTTER CONTEMPT for these losers for being here in the first place, these folks are mere "chancers" who have abandoned their own heritage for the Pakistani rupee, nothing more nothing less and any attempt to give citizenship to these folk will prove to be a calamity from which Sindh may never ever recover,,,,,,,I can totally understand your views on conscription however I adamantly believe that soldiering is not just a job but a profession, we need to maintain a strong disciplined professional army only made up of volunteers unless some Herculean calamity arises which requires every man of fighting age to enlist for the defence of the fatherland.Kudos bhai


@Moonlight

Also, we are fighting the poverty, our educated people are jobless, economy is down, eduction sector is rusted and what not. I believe fighting to fix all these problems should be our priority right now. And government should focus more on this.....this need the immediate attention of sitting government.
Once we get economically better and all the shortcomings are turned into our strengths, we will see what to do with these immigrants. It’s a less important matter to me, at least.
And I personally don’t believe in giving green passport to Afghans or Bangladeshis at this point.
Maybe permanent residency? But not the citizenship....Especially at this point.

no Afghan would have been permitted to settle here when they were in a dire situation due to the Soviet intervention, without doubt if these folks were Ram Lals/Atheists NO ONE would have opened their homes, villages and workplaces to them

I second it....I second it.

Ps: @Desert Fox this piece definitely deserves the positive rating. Well done. :tup:
 
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permanent residency

No.

This will continue the alleged tax evasion.

Pakistan is hardly a socialist country and this vocal outrage is not mirrored in the streets.

This is a Strange test for the Pakistani Nation. Whose founding fathers are much like the founding fathers of the United States of America. One Nation under Allah.
 
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No.

This will continue the alleged tax evasion.

Pakistan is hardly a socialist country and this vocal outrage is not mirrored in the streets.

This is a Strange test for the Pakistani Nation. Whose founding fathers are much like the founding fathers of the United States of America. One Nation under Allah.

As I said, let’s fix Pakistan first and then we will see what to do with these immigrants.
 
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Also, we are fighting the poverty, our educated people are jobless, economy is down, eduction sector is rusted and what not. I believe fighting to fix all these problems should be our priority right now. And government should focus more on this.....this need the immediate attention of sitting government.
Once we get economically better and all the shortcomings are turned into our strengths, we will see what to do with these immigrants. It’s a less important matter to me, at least.
And I personally don’t believe in giving green passport to Afghans or Bangladeshis at this point.
Maybe permanent residency? But not the citizenship....Especially at this point.



I second it....I second it.

Ps: @Desert Fox this piece definitely deserves the positive rating. Well done. :tup:
Totally concur on alleviating poverty, employment opportunities for our youth both the unskilled and even the highly skilled who are sitting at home with advanced degrees in engineering fields from top institutions of the land etc.... once we are in a position of strength I believe we should offer incentives for these refugees to go back to their respective lands ie offer them a lump sum of ca$h while at the same time introducing legislatures which will make it more difficult for illegals to compete with locals etc, I do not wish to sound inhumane however we cannot and must not award illegal behaviour as it will set a terrible precedent, if they wish to apply for genuine asylum they can make applications to the appropriate authorities.Kudos Kiddo

As I said, let’s fix Pakistan first and then we will see what to do with these immigrants.
:tup:

But Sidd does have a point.Kudos
 
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As I said, let’s fix Pakistan first and then we will see what to do with these immigrants.

This is a major Pakistani Problem.

All illegal sorta trade of fassad happens due to this.

I am sure if the Nation is asked by an honest man to accept each other the ones they have lived for 5000 years or even 30 together as one Nation for a Better Future. They will Not say No.

For These People IK is Jinnah. The ones fighting the identity cause and See pakistaniyat enough to believe it.

Also the only Fake Khans will be in India then.

They tell me Pakistan is isolated. They tell me Pakistan has an identity crisis.

I tell them. Pakistan is a cause not an identity.

#RantOver
 
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In light of the recent statement by IK of granting citizenship to illegal Bangladeshi migrants and Afghan refugees and the ensuing discussions and debates that took place (on this very forum included) one cannot help but notice that in the minds of many Pakistanis there is a vague and questionable idea of what it means to be a Nation, because what it means to be a Pakistani has not been defined properly. There are only vague definitions, mostly copy-pasted from Western Liberal conceptions of Nationhood and citizenship because apparently by simply being born on its soil one can become a Pakistani citizen if one so chooses, or another ludicrous example is that all it takes to qualify for being a Pakistani citizen is to be a Muslim because Pakistan was "founded on Islam", as if religion is the sole basis of Nationhood. The arguments presented in favor of this conception need to be addressed.

But first we must clarify what it means to be a Nation.


Nation Defined

A Nation is not simply an aggregate of individuals living in the present. A Nation includes all of those who have passed away (its founders) and all of those who have yet to come. The former group, which includes heroes, martyrs, leaders, thinkers, men of culture (poets, writers etc.), etc., is the one which has contributed to the cultural, traditional and thus spiritual development of the Nation, its National consciousness, and thus its unique identity which bonds all members of the Nation together, giving it not only an understanding of its past but also an understanding of its destiny. All succeeding generations must not only cherish this heritage but must also contribute to it's growth and pass it down to those generations succeeding them.

In addition to the above, a Nation is forged through struggle in times of hardship, for it is these trials and tribulations which test the driving idea behind its inception, its unity, and should this Nation withstand and overcome the challenges facing it then it has proven its internal vitality, thus becoming worthy of the title, and out forth will come new heroes and positive role models for succeeding generations, in addition to the ones already known, and thus as a result further increase in cultural vitality and strengthening of the National consciousness of its members.

One can argue that Pakistan is currently comprised of various ethnic groups which are nations in themselves, which is true if one were to single out the individual ethnic groups and focus solely on that fact, however due to the thousands of years of coexistence in close proximity of each other and shared historical experiences, e.g. wars and conquests against a common enemy in the East, being descendants of the many original inhabitants of the Indus region, etc. the differences have been long since reconciled.

This is why, for example, when Pakistan gained its independence in 1947, during the First Kashmir war, Pashtun tribesmen volunteered to go and liberate Kashmir without hesitation or second thought, on the command of Quaid e Azam who was not even an ethnic Pashtun. There was no economic incentive for them to join Pakistan, which according to many wouldn't last long. This particular experience proved the loyalty of Pashtuns to the idea of Pakistan as a Nation for the Muslims of North Indian-Subcontinent and their willingness to commit to its further development.

Same is true for the original Muhajirs from territories in today's India, who left behind all property and familial relations and risked life and limb to make the journey which they were not guaranteed to survive, indeed which many did not survive. What motivated them was their belief not only in their religion but in the idea of a Pakistani Nationhood.

Anyone can immigrate in times of peace and claim citizenship. But it is hardship which is the true test of faith.

On the other hand, Bangladeshis did not identify with the idea of Pakistan and decided to opt out of the union because of their ethnic, geographic and cultural differences with the ethnic groups comprising modern Pakistan. However despite these differences they were lumped with Pakistan because of a misperceived notion that a shared religious faith was sufficient enough to qualify being included within this union and to hold it together. History proved this notion to be incorrect in 1971. Religion alone is not sufficient. Common historical origins, history, struggle, culture, traditions and a common goal etc. are just as important, if not more.

In Pakistan's case it's moments of truth were 1947 and 1971 when those who were devoted to the idea of Pakistan were distinguished from those who doubted it through the sacrifices they were willing to make, first towards its inception at a time when many doubted its existence and then later in 1971 when again it's founding idea was put to the test. It was during these two decisive moments that National unity triumphed over purely religious unity, particularly in 1971 when Bangla Muslims opted out of the union, viewing themselves as a distinct nation incompatible in a union with the Muslims of then West Pakistan.

In light of the above clarification of what a Nation is as holistically understood, let us now tackle the issue of citizenship and the arguments put forth by those favoring Imran Khan's position.


The Four Arguments Presented

Below are the four arguments pertaining to citizenship presented by those in favor of IK's suggestion :


1. Jus Soli argument

First one is the Jus Soli argument (the magic soil theory, that if someone moves to, or is born on a particular parcel of dirt within a given country they magically begin to think and act like the people of that nation and become its loyal citizens, and this is all it takes to qualify for citizenship).

This law exists within Pakistan however as @Nilgiri pointed out it is only valid for those who enter the country legally.

However the obvious problem with this concept is that most people migrate to a given nation (legally or illegally) for economic purposes and not out of love for the cultural, historical or ethnic makeup of that particular Nation. An obvious example of this is people who migrate to Western countries. They don't migrate to the West to study the Magna Carta, or to write a scholarly dissertation on Thomas Jefferson's life. They move to the West for its material benefits. Now of course there might be a very small minority of people who might leave their down trodden village in a third world country to move to America or Britain purely to study the Magna Carta or write a scholarly dissertation on Thomas Jefferson's life, but these people are exceptions to the rule and the exception does not define the rule.

Loyalty to material interests does not translate to loyalty to a Nation. To test this theory just ask any Pakistani in the West that in the hypothetical event that their host country goes to war with Pakistan, who's side will they choose? Will they choose the host nation which provides them material comfort? Or will they choose the homeland in which their forefathers are burried and with which they have a historical, cultural and ethnic connection? For most of us the answer is obvious.

In the case of refugees they migrate to flee danger and seek personal safety, and not to become a part of their host nation out of any genuine interest in the historical forces involved in it's inception or love or admiration for its founding fathers, culture, etc...

Therefore based on the above observable reality Jus Soli is not a valid basis for qualifying for citizenship and should be discarded.


2. The Ummah/religion based argument

The second argument being made was one based on some vague humanist/Ummah sentiment that does not really exist in real life because of its naivety and impracticability, especially considering the well-known historical event pertaining to the creation of Bangladesh as a separate country through a bloody divorce with Pakistan, founded on Bangla Nationalism. If being Muslim alone qualified for being a citizen of Pakistan then Bangladesh would have never separated. But that it did separate goes to show the importance of ethnicity, culture, common history, traditions, etc... Therefore a Nigerian cannot become a Pakistani purely on the basis of his faith when his ethnic/racial, cultural and historical identity lies with Nigeria, just as Bangladeshis strongly identified with Bangla Nationalism and not united Pakistan or its various ethnic groups which historically, ethnically and culturally have more in common with each other than they do with a Bangladeshi or a Nigerian.


3. The "they have been here for three generations" argument:

"They have been here for three generations! Pakistan is the only country they ever knew. Surely by now they must be integrated within Pakistani society?"

They were in Bangladesh for hundreds of generations, yet that didn't stop them from leaving their homeland for economic incentives and coming to Pakistan AFTER 1971, (particularly in the 70's & 80's when Pakistan's economy was league's ahead of that of Bangladesh) whether to stay here or to go further abroad to the West. Three generations is supposed to make them loyal to Pakistan? The same Pakistan which the ethnic government of their motherland taught them raped and killed 3 million of their ethnic kinsmen?

The fact remains these people are Bangladeshis and arrived here for economic incentives, and as long as Bangladesh exists as a symbol of Bangla Nationalism, in the back of their minds they will always identify with Bangla Nationalism because that is their ethnic homeland (land of their heroes, poets, etc.), whereas Pakistanis will always be alien to them and remain the nation which oppressed their people.


4. When all else fails

The last and final argument was nothing but emotional blackmail: "since Pakistanis immigrate to the West and would not like it if the West began to deport and deny citizenships to Muslims & Pakistanis therefore we should shut up and continue to take in the spawns of Sheikh Hasina and Ashraf Ghani."

What other nations do with their internal immigration policy is not our concern. We should be making these important decisions based on what is in the best interest of the Pakistani Nation (Nation in the truest sense of the meaning, as defined above). The fact that this even needs to be explained shows why foreigners have taken our country for a ride for so long and are still doing so as we speak.



Revolutionary Conception of Citizen

It is not enough to point out a problem if one cannot propose a solution or guide in that general direction at the least.

Of the four arguments presented by those in favor of IK's proposal, the Jus Soli argument was the strongest but its obvious flaws have been pointed out above and therefore it is not a viable option.

So logically one would assume that the only other alternative is the concept of Jus Sanguinis, citizenship conferred upon an individual based on the fact that either one or both parents are citizens of that particular state. However this concept too is flawed for the very reason that being born to parent(s) who are already citizens doesn't necessarily mean that one will be loyal to his/her Nation. As Pakistanis we know this better than anyone considering that we have no shortage of disloyal individuals in positions of power despite them being born within this nation to citizen parents.


Citizens, Subjects & Foreigners

In place of the above two conceptions, both of which are flawed in one way or another, we offer a radically different conception of the citizen based on a hierarchical order of the inhabitants of society into three categories: citizens, subjects and foreigners.

NOTE: As an important side note, this concept of citizen, subject and foreigner is not originally my own idea. I have gotten this from another source who's name i cannot remember at this moment. Within this essay i have added a few of my own modifications here and there to the original concept in my attempt to tailor it to the unique requirements of the Pakistani Nation.

The subject is anyone born to parents who are either subjects themselves or are citizens of the state.

The foreigner is anyone who is a subject or subject equivalent of a foreign state (tourists, foreign diplomats, dignitaries, etc.).

What differentiates the subject from the citizen is that the former does not possess the privilege of participating in major decision making processes on the political level nor can they hold any public office.

In order for a subject to transition to the status of a citizen they would have to go through several phases which includes an obligatory patriotic education teaching them the importance of their heritage and National identity along with virtues like honesty, commitment, persistence, discipline, in addition to the regular subjects like math, science, and language along with physical education pertaining to fitness and physical health. The subject of history should be a patriotic National history. World history should only be optional for those who wish to pursue further studies in this field.

For the male subject, the final phase to go through in order to obtain the status of citizen is voluntary military service. Because it is voluntary it will naturally weed out those who are truly committed to the well-being of the nation, and thus are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, from those who are not.

The military in this regard will play a very important role because unlike civilian institutions, especially of the Liberal type, a military will always be patriotic because by its nature it must be, otherwise it would be nothing but a glorified police organization (current German Bundeswehr is an example).

Unlike Democratic civilian institutions which are full of humanitarians and blind sentimentalists, the military cannot spare the resources of its own troops to armies of adversaries. Whereas a Democrat will welcome the very enemies of his nation into his arms, an officer of the military cannot open his barracks to enemy troops, if he does he is considered a traitor (need i mention the fate of traitors in all militaries?). The lines are drawn and the distinctions are made. A soldier thinks for the long term (necessary for formulating strategies and tactics) whereas a Democrat only thinks for the next election cycle.

The hard life of a soldier will further inculcate necessary virtues within the subject which are unique to the military 'culture'; discipline, loyalty, obedience to authority, importance of hierarchy, merit, individual initiative in service of ones unit etc. Without these no military worth its salt can exist.


elite-pakistani-cadets-vie-for-admission-to-prestigious-us-military-academies-c8c1d408df8637df9461c0d47a94ae18.jpg

Image courtesy of: Source


Once the male subject has completed his voluntary military service he has now obtained the right of citizenship and can now return to civilian life.

For the female subject in order to transition to the status of a citizen she must get married and have at least one child with her husband with three being the maximum recommended limit. If the female subject happens to divorce her husband she loses her citizenship status. This is the case because women who are married and have at least one child think and make decisions for the long term because their children's well-being is intertwined with the Nations well-being since they now have a steak in it's future, whereas single women and single mothers vote differently. There are studies that indicate this and which can be searched on google.

The status of citizen comes with privileges but also obligations. The individual without honor or character, the common criminal, the traitor to the Nation, whether man or woman, will be deprived of their citizenship status and thus again becomes a subject.


Special Cases

But what of those who are born of a parent, either citizen or subject of the state, and a foreign national, say for example a Pakistani father and a Indian mother (or Pakistani mother and Indian father)? In that case such a person can never become a citizen of the state due to questionable loyalties, particularly within the Indo-Pak context, and the parent, should they be a citizen, will be deprived of their citizenship status. Such unions would be discouraged to begin with through the educational process as well as the phase of obtaining citizenship.

And what of those who are born of a parent, either citizen or subject of the state, and a foreign national not from the subcontinent, say for example a Nigerian? In that case too such a person can never become a citizen due to the identity issues that bi-racial persons experience which causes resentment towards those who have a coherent & mono-racial identity, and thus will not be able to make decisions in the interests of the Nation with whom they cannot relate with due to the incoherence of their own personal identity.


Quality Population over Quantity

So earlier i mentioned children being one of the pre-conditions for a female subject to qualify for the status of citizenship. I'm aware that currently there is an overpopulation crises in Pakistan and family planning is necessary. For this reason a quality population is preferred over a quantity population. Thus the maximum recommended limit for children will be three and not more which is enough to cover replacement levels for aging population while also maintaining a surplus young population to prevent an aging crises like the one faced by the Chinese as a result of their One Child policy. Also should a war break out a surplus young population is necessary.


Concluding Thoughts

Defining the concept of Nation and what it means to be the members (citizens) of this Nation is an issue of national importance and thus must be confronted with the best of interests at heart for the Nation and its future well-being. This is just my suggestion. Obviously theory on paper and theory in practice are two different things. Perhaps some things might need to be modified. I am open to productive criticism and counter suggestions.

@Psychic @Indus Pakistan @Taimur Khurram @Maarkhoor



Asalamu Alaikum

Definitely a good read, but I do have my issues:

n the minds of many Pakistanis there is a vague and questionable idea of what it means to be a Nation, because what it means to be a Pakistani has not been defined properly. There are only vague definitions, mostly copy-pasted from Western Liberal conceptions of Nationhood and citizenship because apparently by simply being born on its soil one can become a Pakistani citizen if one so chooses

There is no 'vague' idea, a Pakistani is someone born and raised in Pakistan, someone who has recent ancestors that came from Pakistan, or someone who has Pakistani citizenship.

another ludicrous example is that all it takes to qualify for being a Pakistani citizen is to be a Muslim because Pakistan was "founded on Islam", as if religion is the sole basis of Nationhood.

Nobody says that, this line of thought is only prevalent among historians who use it in a historical context when referring to Muslim figures in South Asia, which is a completely different topic and is not equatable to this one.

On the other hand, Bangladeshis did not identify with the idea of Pakistan and decided to opt out of the union because of their ethnic, geographic and cultural differences with the ethnic groups comprising modern Pakistan. However despite these differences they were lumped with Pakistan because of a misperceived notion that a shared religious faith was sufficient enough to qualify being included within this union and to hold it together. History proved this notion to be incorrect in 1971. Religion alone is not sufficient. Common historical origins, history, struggle, culture, traditions and a common goal etc. are just as important, if not more.

Incorrect, Bangladeshi separatism had nothing to do with Islam, in fact, it's foundations were based on principles antithetical to Islam. It's clear that even if the separatists called themselves Muslim, they didn't practice Islam, so the two nation theory is not disproved at all. All it does is further prove the theory, since the jahil ethno-nationalists ended up as a separate nation.

Loyalty to material interests does not translate to loyalty to a Nation.

The status of citizen comes with privileges but also obligations. The individual without honor or character, the common criminal, the traitor to the Nation, whether man or woman, will be deprived of their citizenship status and thus again becomes a subject.

But what of those who are born of a parent, either citizen or subject of the state, and a foreign national, say for example a Pakistani father and a Indian mother (or Pakistani mother and Indian father)? In that case such a person can never become a citizen of the state due to questionable loyalties, particularly within the Indo-Pak context, and the parent, should they be a citizen, will be deprived of their citizenship status. Such unions would be discouraged to begin with through the educational process as well as the phase of obtaining citizenship.

And what of those who are born of a parent, either citizen or subject of the state, and a foreign national not from the subcontinent, say for example a Nigerian? In that case too such a person can never become a citizen due to the identity issues that bi-racial persons experience which causes resentment towards those who have a coherent & mono-racial identity, and thus will not be able to make decisions in the interests of the Nation with whom they cannot relate with due to the incoherence of their own personal identity.

For the male subject, the final phase to go through in order to obtain the status of citizen is voluntary military service.

For the female subject in order to transition to the status of a citizen she must get married and have at least one child with her husband with three being the maximum recommended limit. If the female subject happens to divorce her husband she loses her citizenship status.

The idea of being from a nation doesn't necessitate that you are loyal to it. You just have to meet this criteria:

"a Pakistani is someone born and raised in Pakistan, someone who has recent ancestors that came from Pakistan, or someone who has Pakistani citizenship."

Also, it is unreasonable to expect someone to do things that ordinary Pakistanis do not have to do in order to become a citizen (beyond the regular paperwork and interviews).

To test this theory just ask any Pakistani in the West that in the hypothetical event that their host country goes to war with Pakistan, who's side will they choose?

A lot of them would actually side with their host country, e.g Majid Nawaz or Sadiq Khan.
 
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Reminds me of the satirical novel “starship troopers” in it’s premise.
 
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incentives for these refugees

The only other Option is to claim reparition or islamically termed war for zakaat to take care of them.

Because the Social fabric will collapse based on numerical stastistic
 
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:raise: If they want citizenship then they should at least have to intermarriage with actual Pakistanis. If no... then no citizenship. :fie:
 
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Asalamu Alaikum
Walaikum Assalam
There is no 'vague' idea, a Pakistani is someone born and raised in Pakistan, someone who has recent ancestors that came from Pakistan, or someone who has Pakistani citizenship.
These are vague, and we can agree to disagree, because they are not clearly defined. They do not describe in what sense they are Pakistani.

For example: 'A shark is something that is born and raised in the sea.' This definition is vague, 1. because it does not define what a shark is and 2. a shark is not the only creature born a raised in the sea.



So i'm going to assume that in all three of the above examples you provided the individuals are citizens of Pakistan? Yes or no?

1. "a Pakistani is someone born and raised in Pakistan" (this is the Jus Soli argument which i already addressed in my earlier post).

So a Korean, Nigerian, and Peruvian can become Pakistanis by simply being born and raised on its soil? On what basis? Do they relate to the events of 1947 and 1971 on a personal level the same way an average Pakistani of any ethnic group would? What connection do they have to its past, present and future, to it's people? Why would they give up their previous identity for a Pakistani one and how would you know?


2. "someone who has recent ancestors that came from Pakistan"

This is also vague because what does "recent" mean? How recent?


3. or someone who has Pakistani citizenship

This too is vague because citizenship is just a piece of paper. A piece of paper can define who is and who isn't a Pakistani, solely on the basis that a person was born on it's soil?

Nobody says that, this line of thought is only prevalent among historians who use it in a historical context when referring to Muslim figures in South Asia, which is a completely different topic and is not equatable to this one.
This was the argument used by people on the other threads which is why i addressed it.

Incorrect, Bangladeshi separatism had nothing to do with Islam, in fact, it's foundations were based on principles antithetical to Islam. It's clear that even if the separatists called themselves Muslim, they didn't practice Islam, so the two nation theory is not disproved at all. All it does is further prove the theory, since the jahil ethno-nationalists ended up as a separate nation
I don't think i ever stated that Bangla separatism had to do with Islam. What i did say is that the basis for including Bangladesh in the same union as Pakistan (common religious identity) was a weak one because in all of the other important factors (culture, geography, history) there was no commonality between West Pakistan and Bangladesh.

The idea of being from a nation doesn't necessitate that you are loyal to it. You just have to meet this criteria:
Elaborate more please.
Also, it is unreasonable to expect someone to do things that ordinary Pakistanis do not have to do in order to become a citizen (beyond the regular paperwork and interviews).
I disagree and i was talking about ordinary Pakistanis, not anyone else. I would advise you to loook over again what i posted. Let me again state what i said already in the OP: Within the Nation itself there will be two categories: citizens and subjects. I won't post the long details again. You can look them over in the OP to understand the reasoning behind this distinction between citizen and subject.

A lot of them would actually side with their host country, e.g Majid Nawaz or Sadiq Khan.

Hmmm i don't know about that. But if you want to prove me wrong you could hold a poll for expat Pakistanis on this forum to see if they will choose their host country over Pakistan. Would be interesting.
 
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So i'm going to assume that in all three of the above examples you provided the individuals are citizens of Pakistan? Yes or no?

They should be legal citizens, but even if they are not, they would be what most people would call Pakistani.

1. "a Pakistani is someone born and raised in Pakistan" (this is the Jus Soli argument which i already addressed in my earlier post).

I really don't find your addressing of the point to be adequate.

So a Korean, Nigerian, and Peruvian can become Pakistanis by simply being born and raised on its soil? On what basis?

The basis that they were born and raised here.

Do they relate to the events of 1947 and 1971 on a personal level the same way an average Pakistani of any ethnic group would?

Would a Muhajir relate to any part of Pakistan's history prior to 1947? No, of course not. This country has been subject to numerous migrations throughout history from multiple different people, and as a result we are filled with so many different ethnic groups, making it impossible to define the identity of being Pakistani as being based on ethnicity or based on a shared history, because each ethnic group will have a different history they identify with.

Why would they give up their previous identity for a Pakistani one and how would you know?

They might not give it up, but they would still be Pakistani along with their other identity.

This is also vague because what does "recent" mean? How recent?

Debatable, but I'd say anything further than grandparents is too far.

This too is vague because citizenship is just a piece of paper.

A piece of paper that tells you where someone is from, it's one of the standards people use.

This was the argument used by people on the other threads which is why i addressed it.

I'd like to see evidence of that.

What i did say is that the basis for including Bangladesh in the same union as Pakistan (common religious identity) was a weak one because in all of the other important factors (culture, geography, history) there was no commonality between West Pakistan and Bangladesh.

It was a weak one only because large portions of Bangladeshis view/viewed Islam as inferior to their culture, which means that using religious commonality as an argument is not suddenly disproved since they clearly did/do not value Islam as much as many Pakistanis did/do.

Elaborate more please.

Let's say you're born in Country X. You might not like Country X, you might even want to destroy it and it's people, but you are still from Country X, your hatred of it doesn't mean you no longer come from that country, it just means you don't identify with it.

Hmmm i don't know about that. But if you want to prove me wrong you could hold a poll for expat Pakistanis on this forum to see if they will choose their host country over Pakistan. Would be interesting.

This forum is not a reliable source for those types of things, almost all the people on this forum who are Pakistani expats are all proud Pakistanis. A better source would be a survey conducted by a reliable authority.

From my personal experience, many Pakistani expats (in a lot of places, even most) do identify more with their host country than Pakistan.
 
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They should be legal citizens, but even if they are not, they would be what most people would call Pakistani.
But everyone has a different definition of what it means to be a Pakistani.

I really don't find your addressing of the point to be adequate.
Really? Wow. Which part? Do quote that part and be precise.
Would a Muhajir relate to any part of Pakistan's history prior to 1947? No, of course not.
Sure, but the fact that he joined Pakistan at one of the most disadvantaged moments in its history from which there was no material benefit to derive, shows that he is a worthy part of what today is the Pakistani Nation.

This country has been subject to numerous migrations throughout history from multiple different people,
All parts of the world have, doesn't now mean that they shouldn't have National identities, even if those are based on a specific ethnicity.

and as a result we are filled with so many different ethnic groups, making it impossible to define the identity of being Pakistani as being based on ethnicity or based on a shared history, because each ethnic group will have a different history they identify with.
So you think the four dominant ethnic groups that comprise Pakistan do not have a shared history?

So when the Mughals ruled this region Punjabis didn't exist yet? And then when the Brits came the Punjabis appeared from thin air and in their place the Sindhis disappeared?

They might not give it up, but they would still be Pakistani along with their other identity.
So if millions of Chinese Atheists who enjoy eating pork and consuming alcohol and deny the existence of God became Pakistani citizens because of a law which you advocate and believe in, and with their citizenship & right to vote began pushing for secularization and lifting of alcohol ban, creation of Casino's, etc., you would be completely okay with that because you believe that all it takes to be a Pakistani is to be born on its soil?

"a Pakistani is someone born and raised in Pakistan"

Debatable, but I'd say anything further than grandparents is too far.
If it's "debatable" than it's vague. How can you establish a law on something that's debatable?
A piece of paper that tells you where someone is from, it's one of the standards people use.
Would you accept someone to be a part of your family based on a piece of paper? If not, then how can you accept them to be a part of your Nation based simply on a piece of paper that anyone can obtain by simply being born, that too on a particular soil? Being born on a piece of land isn't exactly a talent.

It was a weak one only because large portions of Bangladeshis view/viewed Islam as inferior to their culture, which means that using religious commonality as an argument is not suddenly disproved since they clearly did/do not value Islam as much as many Pakistanis did/do.
I don't think so. In my interactions with Bangladeshis abroad, they are on average the same as Pakistanis in terms of religiosity, ie they're a mix bag, some are cultural Muslims, others are practicing Muslims, and the in-between etc. Sure, Pakistanis tend to stress the Ummah concept wayyyyy too much, but this is more because of our sentimentalism which no other Muslim Nation, whether Bangladeshis, Arabs, Indonesians or Turks express.

As another example, we even behave the same towards the Chinese (stressing the whole brotherhood and friendship angle) whereas the other side doesn't reciprocate similar sentimentalism and actually has the largest trade with India.

Secondly, being a practicing Muslim doesn't mean negation of ones culture and traditions as long as they are not in conflict with Islam. So if Banglas view themselves as a separate Nation due to cultural and ethnic reasons that doesn't make them bad Muslims when Allah (SAW) Himself states within the Quran that he created mankind in Nations as one of His signs.

Let's say you're born in Country X. You might not like Country X, you might even want to destroy it and it's people, but you are still from Country X, your hatred of it doesn't mean you no longer come from that country, it just means you don't identify with it.
True, i see what you mean. So then you agree that a Nigerian cannot un-become his Nigerian identity and replace it with a Pakistani identity because he will always be a Nigerian and thus will always identify as such? And that therefore a piece of paper (citizenship) cannot make him a Pakistani in the truest sense of the word, but only formally?
This forum is not a reliable source for those types of things, almost all the people on this forum who are Pakistani expats are all proud Pakistanis. A better source would be a survey conducted by a reliable authority.
So if you know of a better survey then post it, if not then conduct your poll here and let the expats speak for themselves (its the next best thing, so why not?).

From my personal experience, many Pakistani expats (in a lot of places, even most) do identify more with their host country than Pakistan.
From my personal experience its the complete opposite. But then i guess everyone's anecdotal experience is different then.

I'd like to see evidence of that.
Lol bhai jaan you don't expect me to go through this thread just to fish for a handful of posts do you? And this is just one of them. There four more threads just as long.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/i-op...citizenships-to-illegal-aliens.577634/page-14

Evidence of some Pakistani members advocating to give citizenship to illegals on the basis of them being Muslims? Because i'm sure that's a far fetched claim. No Pakistani would ever advocate giving citizenship on the basis of Islam (sarcasm). :rolleyes:
 
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What's up with the personal attacks and emotional outbursts? Don't get a heart attack
You want it to be personal for refugees who are not even citizens but it cant be personal for those who are citizens (me)?

Interesting...

And your Pakistan is the one we're living in right now.
My Pakistan was 1980s Pakistan child! Not today's monster!

Well I don't have to worry if I know I'll have someone like you to pick up the tab because clearly you sound like you have taken personal responsibility for all the refugees in Pakistan and are their thekedar.
And here we thought you were open to discussion, I didnt know you meant only agreeing to your POV and not providing another side to the story :tsk:

File a complaint with the U.N. then because they use these terms, or better yet invent your own word, but the rest of the world will still use the term refugee.
I didnt say that the term needs to change I said it is derogatory....Like when one says xyz is a bad word does it mean I need to take it up with someone? It is just letting you know it isnt something someone wants to be! They happen to be in a situation and it is not something ANYONE WANTS!

You are strawmanning my post with your emotional tantrums. Good job.
No, I am hinting you with reality checks...You cant have devils under your cloak and point fingers elsewhere! There are evil people in every flock doesnt make the whole flock wrong / bad...If yes then that makes you no different than a child who is told so!

Which is why we need to change that. However you seem to be content with the status quo.
Where did you get that idea? Just coz I wrote it, it has to be me? Instead I wrote it to address your points...We arent a Nation yet so crying about this and that doesnt make sense!

Well they were wrong and IK won.
IK won but that doesnt invalidate the fact that there were many against him because of the sole reason that he is Pukhtoon!

What does this have to do with my post though? Why are you clutching at random straws? :lol:
You wanted to know what makes a Nation oh I forgot only you can suggest what makes a Nation not others, right...

Of course there are ethno-centric people in all provinces, but there are also people who want a better united Pakistan.
Yes there are such people....For you there are many different kinds of Pakistanis but somehow the same doesnt apply to Afghans?

And you haven't provided a valid counter argument other than strawmanning my post and emotional outbursts.
Your post about National identity is an emotion/ feeling of belonging, if not writing about an emotion then what am I supposed to write about? And if you felt there were emotions in my text than your other accusations like "emotional tantrums" is invalid, no?

There will always be bad apples like that. The goal is to limit the number of such people getting into positions of power and influence. The method I provided will achieve that far better than Liberal Democracy. No system of governance is perfect because humans themselves are imperfect, but the system that best achieves National unity is the one that should be pursued.
And exactly how can you claim this system to achieve best results? You dont really have a case without any examples! I gave you examples of Durrani (by name) and other ex generals and politicians (by position)....When you have examples that failed while being part of your example, how can you claim it is best? What are you comparing it to?

Yes it is. It is a much better criteria than what we have now (which you seem content with). If someone is not willing to sacrifice their most prized possession (their life) for their country then they cannot have a say in its decision making.
AGAIN it isnt the best. You cant claim it the best when you havent compared it to anything else...In your mind it is the only one...I am asking you to broaden that narrowed mindset!

You havent given them citizenship but you already closed the case by saying they will fail while those who went through the said "military" failed the nation....yet you claim it the best?

It isnt about life....When you have been dehumanized you dont really have much regard of life...When you have seen enough death in your own family ...your life is the least of your worries! Joining the army comes natural...killing those responsible or even being brainwashed by xyz as to who is responsible can become confusing! Learn a bit of psychology apparently the terrorists seem to ace that field and lure people to join them!

I never said so.
You didnt have to say you tried to show it via Bangladesh breaking off from us!

Cool. Now go to the Afghan border and preach this in front of an ANA outpost. Let me know how it goes.
Again you think ALL AFGHANI are ANA members? You seem to think it is synonym...You seem to think ONLY ANA are getting citizenship...You diminish individual Afghani people and their ordeals!

I never said this. I think my point just flew over your head.

What I did say when I was refuting the arguments of those in favor of granting citizenship on the basis of Ummah (shared religious faith) was that religious faith is not enough to guarantee loyalty to a Nation and thus should be be a criteria for citizenship.
If that was the case wouldnt we all be Indonesian? After all the majority of Muslim live on those islands and Indonesia is claimed to be the most populated Muslim "NATION"....Religion is not the same as Nation and it is also not the same as UMMAH...each has its own meanings and circumference!

The historical identity of the Pakistani people is the Indus valley civilization. Those who claim Arab ancestry do so to associate with Arabs due to Ummah delusion and inferiority complex, which goes back to my point.
This is against history...It is well documented fact that when Arab traders traveled they settled down in the new lands and married into the locals! So there is no delusion on the part of SOME families who can be Arabs through their paternal heritage and locals through their maternal heritage....Those Arab traders journeyed for YEARS and some DID settle down in the new found lands/ populations! So denying someone their Arab heritage and dismissing it as inferiority complex is historically inaccurate!

And ONLY claiming that the IVC is the only heritage of Pakistan is again wrong, Moguls came to this land, Iran were in and out of this land...there was trade from every corners on this land...You cant really find EXCLUSIVE IVC ONLY DNA....if you can that prob is due to some repeated cousin marriage because everyone has some form of mixture from somewhere!

Yeah well take that up with the BD government because that is what they are teaching their citizens.
And the people we plan to give citizenship to are people who havent gone to BD school coz they were too busy being refugee on our lands!

You dont know my mind either but here you are doing what youre telling me not to do :lol:
I aint speaking on your behalf just countering your BS!

If someone befriends you because you have money doesn't mean their really your friend. Similarly if someone comes to your country for economic reasons doesn't mean they are loyal to your nation.

It's common sense.
And many a times Pakistanis get citizenship in West even after they came for economic reasons but managed to weed into the countries! If you are good why worry? If you are shady then you should worry!

But yet they came to this country? You don't make any sense.
At 1 point you claim they come for economic reasons but love their land still...When I say if that is the case do you think they will take our citizenship offer? And somehow questioning your wild thoughts shows how senseless it really is, right?

If they are so madly in love with their countries why would they take the citizenship offer? It is a valid question! Pakistan isnt UK that people would die to come here and have its citizenship! They would only take it if they are desperate or have no where to go....
You on the other hand are just yapping off without providing any concrete soltuions. Everyone can criticize without offering solutions.
I did offer solutions ...there are soo many of these threads where the same issue is being discussed but they must have passed over your head as usual ...no worries I dont mind repeating myself!

Here is what I suggested: Give them permanent residence status...

Tyrant according to whom? According to you?
So hurling out refugees who ran away from a bad situation to get a better situation will hack their own leg (poun par khulhara?) Obviously those running away from misery will work for a better life...And if you dont help those in need you are nothing less of a tyrant...Real humanity is helping one when you are in power....

So why aren't you providing any solutions? instead you're only strawmanning the solutions offered by others.
I have provided solutions...FIX YOUR OWN SHIT FIRST before pointing fingers...If our law and order was in place there would be fewer problems and fewer people who would make problems!

Where did America come into this from? Again strawmanning my post.

If you want to open a thread about America and offer solutions then do so.
Wow you read America and disconnect it from the sentence and cry this strawman BS again and again? Read the whole sentence...It is about policy and ours has been pleasing AMERICA for a long time now! THAT is in context! Seems like you cant even read a full sentence before jumping to conclusions?! (THIS is an observation...I have to write it out since you will just cry about this also)

That's your personal definition. That's not how it is in reality.
It is not my personal definition it is a well documented word used very loosely!

Sure, go and open a thread about it and offer some helpful suggestions. :-)
Have already done that in the past!

Okay, so now instead of whining offer some solutions for reforming the military?

Or should everyone join your club of 'complain about everything but offer no solutions '?
I am to do that? You are the one who suggested it has no flaws I only pointed that it does...and by asking about solutions you admitted it does have flaws and isnt the measure of loyalty!

petty crimes now? :lol:
Obligations are obligations...Petty for you but litterbugs have also caused blockage of sewage and other problems that costs money to fix ....money that could be spent elsewhere had the people decency to keep the place clean! You laugh at "flaws" of the citizens but spit if "would be citizens" have flaws? THAT ladies and gentlemen itself is called biasedness!

I say we want quality, not just myself. Maybe you are an exception
You didnt give any solution on how to get quality except military service which I already showed you isnt a guarantee of quality!
 
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:raise: If they want citizenship then they should at least have to intermarriage with actual Pakistanis. If no... then no citizenship. :fie:
And what if the Pakistani spouse is abusive? Do you think Pakistan doesnt have assholes?
 
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