Pakistan protests India glacier tourism plan

[Spring Onion]

Compare the amount killed fighting for there faith during the past thousand years with those killed fighting for "secularism democracy capitalism" in the last two hundred.
More people have been killed fighting non faith wars...first world war,second world war..all the smaller asian and african wars.
I dont see ranting about how we should not trust the leaders and ideals of these mass murders.
Go and compare the numbers killed by islamic militants with those killed by the US army during the last 50 years.

Well said debong

Even the current fighting in Afghanistan, Iraq and even in our tribal region is not for preserving religion rather they are all resisting against the attackers.
As you mentioned the huge number of people killed in WWI, WWII, who was responsible for that ???
Did Muslims wage those horrible wars for religion or it was the occupation policy of some powers who are now continuing it but with a new dimension using modern tactics and offcourse well concocted lies.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Give me another one from Grimms Fairy Tales!

 

[Mustapha]

Salaams,

Yes good example...

The EU... exactly what the Europeans nowerdays think as the "New" Roman Empire.

Besides that it sounds as if you ignored the part where Shias can have their own share of Historic controlled lands, While the Sunnis can have theirs.

What, do I have to drill this idea in your head?

Lol... Show me where I promote Bush. Or show me where I'm aganist him. I'm neutral. I never said anything about him, nor do I plan to say anything about him. Lol... why can't you just stay to the facts... instead of bringing up lies...LOL...

Oh, now your saying You don't want to hear the facts... Why? Whats the Matter? You want live in Ignorance all of a sudden?

I thought we were debating on Facts...All of sudden you bring up lies and then talk about that I and Dabong1 are talking about Fairy Tales, even though they are FACTS!

Lol...

Lol... Obviously you are trying to twist the ideas of what I'm talking about so they may sound rediculous or absurd.

Lol...a sign of insolence I see...

Anyways It seems you missed the part about following the difference between wrong and right... You wouldn't make stupid mistakes, unless you Purposely have decided to choose the wrong path, and chaos...ofcourse then the trangessor must be stopped, First by word... and if he/she goes aganist their words... What do you do?

Obviously there is something called "Reason". You have to be logical and abide by the ethics & moral rules/laws...


Lol... Like everything is straightforward...

 

[HAIDER]

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[Tiki Tam Tam]

Salaams,

Yes good example...

The EU... exactly what the Europeans nowerdays think as the "New" Roman Empire.

Is that how you look at the EU?

I don't think they (Europeans) look at it that way. And why should they?

Subconsciously, you are superimposing your fantasy on the EU as a sort of a huge Christian ummah. BTW, there are Moslem European nations that too are keen to form a part of the EU. Turkey too wants to join the EU and be taken as European rather than a part of the Islamic Caliphate that you dream of, which has very little relevance to the economic and political realities of the contemporary world.

So is Turkey Christian? Or even Christian majority?

You state that the EU is another Holy Roman Empire. I state Turkey is a Moslem country and wants to join the EU and hence your statement is a canard.

Now, do you think your claim that I am twisting your words, holds water?!

You sure have a lot of homework to do and not gush with superficiality and then dub others as liars - the epithet that you hurl at me most intemperately!

The problem with you is that you dream and superimpose your dreams when posting and thus convince yourself that they are facts!

And that anyone who give a different view is twisting your words and a liar!

Besides that it sounds as if you ignored the part where Shias can have their own share of Historic controlled lands, While the Sunnis can have theirs.

What, do I have to drill this idea in your head?

A fatuous contention does not get drilled into my head. Repeated inanity merely assumes the proportion of a comical interlude.

The issue that I was contending was that Shias and Sunnis have a common God and yet they are not one! The rationale is that it is because temporal realities have overtaken the spiritual. And that is because in human beings, supremacy of the 'self' engined by 'ambition' overtakes the esoteric!

The history of the Caliphate should be an adequate indicator to allow you to comprehend what I am saying!

The 'historic share of land' that you trot out as the be all and end all of your contention, in itself, is an indicator of the temporal issue having overtaken the spiritual.

Why was the Caliphate challenged and why were the battles when the religion was a common one?

Lol... Show me where I promote Bush. Or show me where I'm aganist him. I'm neutral. I never said anything about him, nor do I plan to say anything about him. Lol... why can't you just stay to the facts... instead of bringing up lies...LOL...

My contention was that you show the similar intolerance as Bush and you profess the same drivel that one should impose one's own idea of the world on others i.e. on those who wish to have no truck with such views. And you suggest that initially you will convert the "Transgressor" (whatever that be) by Diplomacy and failing which, by war! So does Bush. Diplomacy and then by War as in Iraq and just yesterday he spoke of a 'Third World War" if Iran does not fall in line! So, in ideological terms, you have similar views as Bush and hence a supporter.

Oh, now your saying You don't want to hear the facts... Why? Whats the Matter? You want live in Ignorance all of a sudden?

Facts are fine. Daydreams and convoluted arguments are not. I am not that gullible. Preach instead to the yokel, if you must!

I thought we were debating on Facts...All of sudden you bring up lies and then talk about that I and Dabong1 are talking about Fairy Tales, even though they are FACTS!

Lies? Don't be feather-brained.

Indeed Fairy Tales and airy fairy mush!

Lol... Obviously you are trying to twist the ideas of what I'm talking about so they may sound rediculous or absurd.

Should I take it that the Pot is calling the Kettle Black?

Lol...a sign of insolence I see...

When argument fails, intemperate syntax takes over. It is a sign of weakness. You are exhibiting the same.

Anyways It seems you missed the part about following the difference between wrong and right... You wouldn't make stupid mistakes, unless you Purposely have decided to choose the wrong path, and chaos...ofcourse then the trangessor must be stopped, First by word... and if he/she goes aganist their words... What do you do?

Obviously there is something called "Reason". You have to be logical and abide by the ethics & moral rules/laws...

Moral science is too hackneyed to startle! Desist from it! Every religion and every society propounds it. It foundations both. Therefore, what you have written is not really earth shaking or novel. It would be wise if you did not assume that you are the new messiah with a new Sermon from the Mount!

On what basis do you label anyone as "Transgressor"? Are you the sole arbiter appointed by some unknown Cosmic Force?

Or do you take me to be a callow youth in a madrassa, and you the Mullah, whose interpretation should taken as beyond doubt?

Lol... Like everything is straightforward...

As straight forward and rare as common sense in some, as I observe!

If the Caliphate would have come, it would have come. An attempt was made at the Cairo Moslem Summit in 1926. It never took birth.

If the Arab League could not agree with a common programme for Palestine, which as many say is the source of Islamic anger against the world, then what hope is there of the Caliphate except in the fevered imagination or even as a hallowed wish?

A goal without a plan is just a wish.

I prefer to Seek not that the things which happen should happen as I wish; but wish the things which happen to be as they are, and I have a tranquil flow of life.

Not an original thought of mine. It was said by Epictetus, a Greek philosopher associated with the Stoics.

 

[dabong1]

Is that how you look at the EU?

I don't think they (Europeans) look at it that way. And why should they?

British MP and london mayor candidate Boris Johnson says, "When did the Continent of Europe last have one mind, one will, one government? Not since the fall of the Roman Empire" . Indeed, the use of Roman methods to create a unified Europe has not gone unnoticed. Johnson wrote: "In many ways the European Union can be seen as the inheritor of the Roman Empire, an attempt to unite this vast and disparate territory in the way that the Romans did… It is that memory, of a peaceful and united continent, that is so appealing… and that… is why the latest and most ingenious attempt to rebuild the Roman Empire… should have begun in the "Eternal City".

The "Eternal City" city being Rome.....

In 1957, six nations signed the Treaty of Rome, establishing the European Economic Community (EEC), which created a common market and a European Parliament. It also formed a European Commission that would formulate laws and regulations, harmonize tax codes and reduce internal customs barriers

Belgian politician Paul-Henri Spaak was one of the "founding fathers" of the modern effort to unite Europe. Commenting on how it felt to sign the Treaty of Rome in 1957, he observed, "we felt like Romans on that day… We were consciously recreating the Roman Empire once more" (The Signature of God, Jeffrey, p. 191).

Subconsciously, you are superimposing your fantasy on the EU as a sort of a huge Christian ummah.

As the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Lord Carey, put it on the BBC Today programme: "Surely a European Union has to be more than economic? It has to have common values and so on..."

And as for the Holy Father, Pope Benedict, here is what he said when he was just Cardinal Ratzinger, back in 2004. "Turkey is in permanent contrast to Europe," he said, and admission to the EU would be a mistake.

What do you think these "christian leaders" are talking about when they talk of "values", "culture" and "Europeanness"?

BTW, there are Moslem European nations that too are keen to form a part of the EU.


Turkey too wants to join the EU and be taken as European rather than a part of the Islamic Caliphate that you dream of, which has very little relevance to the economic and political realities of the contemporary world.

So is Turkey Christian? Or even Christian majority?

You state that the EU is another Holy Roman Empire. I state Turkey is a Moslem country and wants to join the EU and hence your statement is a canard.

Is turkey a member of the EU?........NO
Is the EU offering full membership....NO
Turkey joined NATO during the 50s fighting the vey nations that the EU has accepted into its membership before turkey.....please do tell us why turkey is not allowed to join.
With the islamic party coming into power and the ever increasing demands put on the turkish govt by the EU have eroded support for membership from the turkish population......go check any recent opinion poll.

"More and more Turks realize that [EU membership] won't happen," says British M.E.P. Daniel Hannan. "But they cling on to the illusion" in order to avoid the possible consequences.

The more pro-Islamic mood in Turkish politics is starting to impress other countries in the Middle East, and Turkish influence is spreading in the area for the first time since the dissolution of the Islamic caliphate in 1924. The number of flights from Istanbul to Damascus has doubled since 2000. Arab visitors to Turkey have trebled between 2001 and 2005, and in that year one million Iranians flew for their holidays to the Turkish Riviera.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Dabong,

I am afraid you have but a overview of the Christian faith, as the vast majority of Christians have about Islam.

It would be worthwhile if the links to your quotes are also appended for authenticity.

Christians have a common heritage, but are as divided as Islam, if not more and are divided into more sects than Islam. Again, it is an example of the temporal overtaking spiritual and spirit of the "self" and "ambition" being ascendant over the esoteric. And the more important factor being the finances that come into the coffer from the adherents!

The Europeans may have common values as, should I say, the Arabs. But nowhere are these values the same in implementation mode. The Greeks have more in commonality with the Turks than they have with the British or French! The Slavs are a different race with different norms. The most important part is that the call of Christianity does not arouse the same fervour as the call for Islam. While a fatwa is a serious matter in Islam, any call for an Inquisition or ex communication or declaring a person a heretic would make the one giving such a call a laughing stock of the world and Christianity.

As far as the Holy Roman Empire is concerned, I hope you are aware that because of the temporal reasons, even the Catholics divided into the Eastern Orthodox Church and the one controlled by the Pope in Rome.

It would be worth reading the issue of the Fall and Decline of Holy Roman Empire
The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
While Wiki may not be an authority, it does give a summary in one portal of a vast subject.

On the broader plane, Catholics and Protestant can never reconcile. The schism is as deep, if not deeper than the Shia Sunni divide.

As far as the EU is concerned Albania has already signed the Stabilisation and Association Agreement which is a precursor. Kosovo and others will join in as and when the issue is settled.

I am sure you will now claim that embracing the Moslem countries into the EU is a conspiracy to subvert Islam and make them Christians or, at best, ensure a schism wherein the Islamic Caliphate cannot be achieved.

 

[Mustapha]

Salaams,


First of all the Roman Empire was a Pagan declared empire, however to the conquered peoples they allowed religious freedom so there wouldn't be any rebellions. Heres an Example when the Romans Conquered Judea, they allowed Jews to practice their own religion.
The only part or the time when the Roman Empire was "Christian" was when the Eastern part still struggled to survive till the Ottomans knocked them out in the 1400's. By that time it was called the Byzantine Empire. The Western part fell when Attila the Hun came and literally burned everything down in Rome.

Now ofcourse the Most of Europe today is Secular. Therefore they see the EU as a new Roman Empire as an old secular society reuniting Europe. Maybe to some Christians they might think it would be an oppurtunity to make Europe a leading Christian power...but I doubt it...Europe is way too secular now... Look at Netherlands...France...Sweden...

Since Turkey is Secular and also had major impacts in Europe since the 1400s, they are considering to allow Turkey to join. However...as it was announced in Brussels, since Turkey has claims in Cyprus and is helping Azerbaijan to claim territories in Armenia, The chance of Turkey becoming a Memberof the EU has been refused or atleast been postponed for another 15 years. Even now it has been noticed that Turkey is becoming a more conservative country...due to the population disagreeing with the effects of the Secularization, and miss the good prosperous times of the Ottoman era.


Turkey is not allowed to join in... For several main reasons:

1. The newly elected President is a pious Muslim (Not Secular)... Therefore the EU sees him as a Threat to the process. It is assumed that he may make more conservative "moves" unlike his predecessors and even attempt to change the laws.

2. Now the people of Turkey who supports Secularism has dropped down considerably. About, or even greater than 44% don't support Secularism or disagree with it. Also the so called "EU reforms are losing Momentum and may even collapse."

3. Turkey Claims all of Cyprus and currently has occupied the Northern sector. Cyprus is an EU state, and EU thus feels this is an act of "misconduct" by a country that "may" want to join the EU.

4. Next Turkey is right now Assisting Azerbaijan with claiming controversial territorial areas. Also some members of the EU may think that the Present-day flag still represents the Caliphate, therefore assuming that Turkey is not fully "Secularized" yet.

5. Some Countries like Germany & Spain are afraid... that if Turkey does get elected into the EU, Turkey will become the most Populous nation in the EU! Therefore Turkey will have the largest representation in the EU & in some of the major trade agreements will have to be decided by Turkey. Also they are afraid that a wave of Turkish immigrants may take all the available jobs in Germany, thus instead of Germans paying Germans, Germany will be paying Turks.

6. Also all the EU members (Countries) overall must agree "100%" In order to accept a new nation to join the EU. So far again, Germany, Spain and even England is opposed.

(This all common knowledge...)

Obviously there seems to be quite a bit obstacles in the way.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kosovo isn't even state yet, Serbia's got it's back covered with Russia. Its simply to early to discuss what will happen to Kosovo. Some people in Kosovo feel it is necessary to join Albania. I personally would like to see Kosovo independent or better if secedes itself to Albania. However since Serbia has controlled Kosovo since the day it gained its independence from the Ottomans in the 1850's; they are obviously not going to give it up without a fight.

Besides that, I have said many times before... I really don't mind if the Shias don't recognize the ruling Calipha, because simply thats exactly how they reacted during the Ottoman Era. Like I said before the Shias can have their own share of the lands which was Persia and Southern Azebaijan during the controlled Safavid era "Lands".

This is pretty much common knowledge

Lol... you have been the one making personal remarks aganist my arguements and me...even though the arguements hold "water" which you claim they don't and then you call them faiy tales. Lol... and you are calling me feather-brained. Prove that the Safavid Empire was just a fairy tale. Prove that the Ottoman Empire, never existed, if they never existed; if they are just Fairy Tales. LOL then prove that they were fairy tales then lol... .Then you are saying logic is haywired. I have said for example, someone has invaded your land...therefore you must use force to drive them out, if you have verbally tried to convince him out. This is Human nature... If someone comes randomly living in your house, you will just let them. So you are calling this Bush's logic. Wow what an educated proof! Perhaps we should ask the Indian Government if that logic is nonsense or "Bush's", if that was the case Pakistan would have reclaimed Kashmir Generations ago!
.Maybe that means I should tell a bunch of people to start living in your house. Since afterall you say it is "Bush's idea" and since you obviously claim you don't support it. You then say that the study of logic or human behavior or Psychology is a waste of time is no proof at all... Wheres the proof? its not Common Knoweldge at all. Yet, People are reseaching on it day and night. How do you think they found ways to threat Mental Illnesses, or cure people out of Phobias.

Lol...About the Insolence part...since you can only implie and assume... I was also Assuming that you would recognize your useless scathing remarks. Lol... whats the matter can't take your own dose of "Assuming"

Lol...lieing...not using proof or not even saying its common knowledge... and using false knowlege...just declaring facts as fairy tales... all the signs of a bad and frustated debater. You only say stuff...with no support for the "said stuff".

Why havn't you proved te Ottoman Empire was a fairy tale? Or that truely the study of human behavior or logic is hackneyed? Please don't say it was just to put emphasis or simply don't say its a "no-bainer." LOL

Lol... Indeed everything is straightforward...its just the will of the person to be a nuisance, thus choosing the wrong path, therefore having the desire to do evil.

Lol...

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I am afraid I cannot be held to order if you do not understand what I write and instead you undertake your own interpretation to suit your convenience and mood of the moment.

My comment was based on your intemperate syntax!

Your comments on this issue, in the above post, is too muddled for comprehension since most are fused sentences.

There is a difference between the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire. which apparently you do not know.

The fact you state "The only part or the time when the Roman Empire was "Christian" was when the Eastern part still struggled to survive" indicates you are not conversant with the issue at all and are very superficial. In the event you wish to be educated in Christianity, it is time you understand the history of Europe, the Church and its split, initially amongst the Catholics and then to the rise of the Protestants.

I am aware the Kosovo is not a state as yet, but the indications are that it will be soon. Whether it will be viable or not is another question. Being in Europe, it will, like others crave for economic salvation and that is only through the medium of EU.

The Ottoman Empire is not a fairy tales since it was not a figment of imagination. It subjugated all Arabs and others and also did some remarkable work. Why should I feel it is the work of Brothers Grimm? Are you trying to put words in my mouth so that the issue at hand is obfuscated so that you do not come a cropper?

 

[dabong1]

I am afraid I cannot be held to order if you do not understand what I write and instead you undertake your own interpretation to suit your convenience and mood of the moment.

My comment was based on your intemperate syntax!

Your comments on this issue, in the above post, is too muddled for comprehension since most are fused sentences.

There is a difference between the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire. which apparently you do not know.

The fact you state "The only part or the time when the Roman Empire was "Christian" was when the Eastern part still struggled to survive" indicates you are not conversant with the issue at all and are very superficial. In the event you wish to be educated in Christianity, it is time you understand the history of Europe, the Church and its split, initially amongst the Catholics and then to the rise of the Protestants.

I am aware the Kosovo is not a state as yet, but the indications are that it will be soon. Whether it will be viable or not is another question. Being in Europe, it will, like others crave for economic salvation and that is only through the medium of EU.

The Ottoman Empire is not a fairy tales since it was not a figment of imagination. It subjugated all Arabs and others and also did some remarkable work. Why should I feel it is the work of Brothers Grimm? Are you trying to put words in my mouth so that the issue at hand is obfuscated so that you do not come a cropper?

You must the king of backtracking.....at least take the time to check your history before you post your biased opinions.

I love the way when your petty arguments are ripped to shreds how you jump to pointing to spelling mistakes someone has made.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

You must the king of backtracking.....at least take the time to check your history before you post your biased opinions.

I love the way when your petty arguments are ripped to shreds how you jump to pointing to spelling mistakes someone has made.

It is not backtracking, old boy.

It is merely that you don't understand in the first place and secondly, you superimpose your biases that cloud your comprehension of what you think I have written!

Petty it is indeed, since it does not conform to your ideas?!

 

[HAIDER]

NEW DELHI, Nov 19 (AFP): India's defence minister on Monday brushed off Pakistan’s objections over New Delhi's decision to allow trekkers to visit its side of Indian occupied Kashmir. Speaking to the Indian parliament, A.K. Antony said treks to the Siachen glacier should not derail the peace process. “Pakistan had protested against the expeditions in Saichen, expressing deep concern,” Antony said in a debate. He added that after Pakistan complained over the latest trek, “a suitable reply was given, clarifying that trekking expeditions have been taking place in the past and India does not see how these will have an adverse impact on the dialogue process. (Posted @ 20:40 PST)
- DAWN - Latest Stories; November 19, 2007