Pakistan Navy's answer SM-2 for Brahmos.

[Myth_buster_1]

Its not my interpretation but a general one....Indo-Pak scenario has lot of sensitivity and suddenly if you claim something which can take on Brahmos without even clinging a deal people from other side are bound to react the way they did...As said many times call it a logical guess and discuss(referring to your thread title)...i am sure few of us(excluding me) knows a thing or two about defence and can share knowledge....

No where have I said that indeed Pakistan has signed a contract but gave the high possibility of obtaining the missile. The Indian members were claiming that Brahmos cant be defeated by SM-2 and their logic was from simply reading few lines from wikipedia that its a 1970s missile, which is just mere ignorance and lack of comprehension of military materials or simply not even interest of such military matter. They even claimed Brahmos has no counter missile which is just baseless and false. To these sort of claims I have provided with sources that indeed SM-2 Block IIIA/B are more then capable enough to engage any advance cruise missiles.
I dont think my thread is misleading. Again it all depends how you interpret the title and the materials provided here.

never the less good constructive counter argument by a indian member and thats what I am looking for.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

The russians do have the brahmoslike missile in service its called the onyx.its a ss-x-26 yakhont variant just like the brahmos.Being cash strapped they can't immediately replace these missiles with brahmos but new stregueschy corvettes are said to have brahmos/onyx depending on financial availability.brahmos is costlier.the russian navy can barely keep itself afloat,heck they had to cancel their new t-95 tank.

 

[fatman17]

who says that the US is providing SM-2 for the OHP transferred to PN - the OHP will be fitted with 'similar' sensors and weapons as the F-22P

 

[Myth_buster_1]

who says that the US is providing SM-2 for the OHP transferred to PN - the OHP will be fitted with 'similar' sensors and weapons as the F-22P

Most probably the US wont allow Pakistan to integrate Chinese sensors and weapons on their platforms. Plus the threat environment has changed dramatically and relying on same old cheap solutions wont get pakistan any where. F-22P or Amazon class frigates on its own are easy target for IN surface combatants.
Even without upgrades the FFG class frigate prior to 2003 is a lot superior to F-22P in terms of ASW AShW AAW.
IMO under a PN modernization plan these frigates will most likely go under up gradation just like the P-3C.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

The FFG air surveillance radar is a very long range radar with 400+KM range and the A(V)1 configuration provides enhanced capabilities and utilizes ESSM and SM-2 block IIIA very effectively.

http://www.thalesgroup.com/assets/0...1126-496c-90ac-65100a132d84.pdf?LangType=2057FFG UPGRADE
Air search radar AN/SPS-49(V)4 radar to the A(V)1
configuration provides:

• Automatic target detection
• Improved waveform and signal
processing for low altitude/small
radar cross section (RCS) targets
• Coherent side lobe cancellation
giving considerable electronic
protection capability
• Two scan threat alerts
• Improved reliability.


Air surveillance capability

• The long-range air surveillance,
target indication and Automatic
Detect and Track (ADT) functions
are upgraded
• The AN/SPS 49A(V)1 long-range
air surveillance radar provides
improved low elevation small
target performance and increased
detection range
• The Electro Optical Tracking System
(EOTS) is integrated into the combat
system and provides a new fire
control channel
• The Electronic Support (ES) function
is replaced by a modern high
performance system.

 

[Penguin]

The SM-2 discussion is based on educated guesses and logic

I think this is the most honest key sentence in all the 15 pages that constitute this thread.

 

[pak blood]

thogh i m new to this forum but i wonder why every thread ultimately turns into india pakistan stuff. its ok to ask about any references , rather it should be necessary to post them with the info . whether sm2 available to paksitan or brahmos indestructible

 

[bloo]

This is just stupid
BrahMos has different trajectories unlike other cruise missiles it can perform a supersonic dive, can elude not just through the stealth tech it incorprates but coz of its ramjet engine that helps it dodge radar coverage, it can skim as low as 10m above water, can choose the appropriate target among a group and has a CEP of less than 1
And a soon to come hypersonic BrahMos will be more or less impervious to any air defense systems
FYI hypersonic BrahMos has already been tested at Mach 6.5 in Hyderabad

 

[Penguin]

BrahMos has different trajectories

unlike other cruise missiles it can perform a supersonic dive,

can elude not just through the stealth tech it incorprates

What stealth technology? There isn't anything particularly stealthy about the Brahmos missile.
Manufacturer website doesn't even mention stealth. It does say "low radar signature" jsut once
BRAHMOS Supersonic Cruise Missile - BrahMos.com
However, consider that most subsonic missiles are smaller (in diameter as well as length) and will likely have 'low radar signatures' as well.

coz of its ramjet engine that helps it dodge radar coverage,

Ramjet doesn't help dodge radar coverage. Ramjet > hi speed > little time needed to close distance on the target > less usefull time for opponent to engage missile upon detection (which is why you want Early Warning). Speed does nothing to radar. Speed just give you less time to react (unless you improve detection).

it can skim as low as 10m above water,

Is 10m low?
Compare subsonic Exocet:

As a counter measure against the air defence around the target, it maintains a very low altitude during ingress, staying 1–2 m above the sea surface. Due to the effect of the radar horizon, this means that the target may not detect an incoming attack until the missile is only 6000 m from impact.

Exocet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
See also

Sea skimming anti-ship missiles try to fly as low as is practically achievable, which is almost always below 50 meters (150 ft), and is often down towards 5 meters (15 ft). When under attack, a warship can detect sea-skimming missiles only once they appear over the horizon (about 28 to 46 km from the ship), allowing about 25 to 60 seconds of warning

Sea skimming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

can choose the appropriate target among a group

Many ASHM can

has a CEP of less than 1

And?

Yawn. You've revived a very old thread for this?

 

[bloo]

unlike other cruise missiles it can perform a supersonic dive,

Yes it is true, BrahMos is the only cruise missile that can perform a steep supersonic dive.

This is the first time in the world that a supersonic dive has been realized by a cruise missile

BRAHMOS Block-II test-fired with advanced supersonic dive manoeuvrability :: BrahMos.com

What stealth technology? There isn't anything particularly stealthy about the Brahmos missile.
Manufacturer website doesn't even mention stealth. It does say "low radar signature" jsut once
BRAHMOS Supersonic Cruise Missile - BrahMos.com

How will you know that BrahMos isn't stealthy?Like me your only source of credible information is the net, so please get off that high horse.
And it seems you missed out something from your own link.

Stealth technology with advanced embedded software provides the missile with special features......low radar signature......

It seems you are really intent on underplaying BrahMos.

However, consider that most subsonic missiles are smaller (in diameter as well as length) and will likely have 'low radar signatures' as well.

Size is not the only factor that influences stealth.
If size was the only criteria in stealth then the F-16 would have been more stealthier than the F-22.
However, until we know the correct rcs of BrahMos it is hard to judge.

Ramjet doesn't help dodge radar coverage. Ramjet > hi speed > little time needed to close distance on the target > less usefull time for opponent to engage missile upon detection (which is why you want Early Warning). Speed does nothing to radar. Speed just give you less time to react (unless you improve detection).

Oh Really?

The missile performed high-level manoeuvres at two given points in a scenario of evading detection by enemies' radars and successfully hit the target ship at a distance of 290 kms.

We don't really know if the ramjet engine also has TVC, but most probably it does, since it can dive and manoeuver quickly.

BrahMos has stealth features, can fly fast, low and manouver past radar coverage.
So yes it is pretty much badass, no matter ho much people are in denial of its capabilities.

BRAHMOS hits bull's eye on the target from INS Teg :: BrahMos.com

Is 10m low?
Compare subsonic Exocet:
Exocet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
See also
Sea skimming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Actually the BrahMos ASHM can fly as low as 3-4m, at Mach-2+.
And yes 10m is still very low.

Ship-launched BRAHMOS can fly in sea-skimming mode, completely destroy target :: BrahMos.com

Many ASHM can

Not at Mach-2 they cant.
And pray tell, what other ASHMs can do that?

And?

LOL
Do you even know what a CEP is?
CEP or Circular Error Probability is the direct result of a missile's accuracy.
And since BrahMos's ability and my comment doesn't faze you, do name a few ASHMs with a zero circular error probability?

Yawn. You've revived a very old thread for this?

Yes I do know what I am doing so please keep your condescension to yourself.

 

[surya kiran]

Yes it is true, BrahMos is the only cruise missile that can perform a steep supersonic dive.
.

Just go through the relevant threads on BrahMos. There is lots of information already available. All these points have been discussed to death. And before commenting on a member's expertise, take a few moments off to read their previous posts on other threads.

 

[Penguin]

Maneuvering patterns of the anti-ship missile, which is the main threat to naval vessels, are consistent of three types: Waver, Pop-Up, and HighDiver maneuvers.

The Pop-Up maneuver is the typical pattern of the missile from ship to ship, and usually, many anti-ship missiles perform both sea-skimming and Pop-Up maneuvers. Waver maneuver is an evasive maneuvering pattern of an anti-ship missile or a maneuvering pattern of the torpedo from submarine to ship. The High-Diver maneuver is the typical pattern of the missile from aircraft to ship.

The typical trajectory of the Harpoon includes pop-up, waver, high-diver maneuvers, and sea skimming during flight until striking the target ship after launching from the platform

http://www.ijcas.org/admin/paper/files/IJCAS_v5_n4_pp.456-462.pdf p458-459

Consider that Harpoon comes in air-, surface- (ship-/land-), submarine launched applications: AGM-84, RGM-84 and UGM-84. Brahmos comes in air and surface (ship/land) launched applications.

I strongly suspect the 'high diving' in the case of Brahmos referes to the air launch version (see flight path illustrations below). In that sense it is not new: from 1962 to 2007 the Russian deployed a supersonic highdiving missile AS-4 Kelt/Kh22.

Yahont Antiship Missile

Asian Defense: India Modifies Brahmos Missile With New Nav System
The Russian-Indian BrahMos supersonic cruise missile | INFOgraphics | RIA Novosti

Supersonic: Brahmos cleared for Air Force

The Kh-22 (Complex 22) weapon was developed by the Raduga design bureau and used to arm the Tupolev Tu-22.The Kh-22 uses an Isayev liquid-fuel rocket engine, fueled with hydrazine and IRFNA (inhibited red fuming nitric acid), giving it a maximum speed of Mach 4 and a range of up to 400 km (220 nmi). It can be launched in either high-altitude or low-altitude mode. In high-altitude mode, it climbs to an altitude of 27,000 m (89,000 ft) and makes a high-speed dive into the target, with a terminal speed of about Mach 4. In low-altitude mode, it climbs to 12,000 m (39,000 ft) and makes a shallow dive at about Mach 1.2, making the final approach at an altitude under 500 m (1,600 ft).

Kh-32 is a conventionally-armed deep upgrade variant of Kh-22 for modernised Tu-22M3. It features an improved rocket motor and a new seeker head.
Kh-22 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A Raduga NPO (now part of Tactical Missiles Corporation) development project was reported in January 2000, with the designator Kh-32. The flight test programme had started in 1995. A Russian Air Force in-service date of 2005 was expected, but it is believed that the programme has been delayed, and may well have been terminated as there have been no further reports.

http://articles.janes.com/articles/Janes-Strategic-Weapon-Systems/Kh-32-Russian-Federation.html

Soviet/Russian Cruise Missiles

 

[Penguin]

Consider Yakhont-Brahmos diameter is 72cm, wingspan 170cm, length 820cm (surface launch versions). This compares to Exocets 35cm, 110cm and 470cm, and C802s 36cm, 122cm and 639cm. Brahmos is a much bigger reflecting target to begin with.

Stealth in missiles

e.g. Norway´s NSM

e.g. US AGM-129A cruise missile

e.g. US AGM-158 JASSM cruise missile

e.g Scalp-Storm Shadow

 

[Penguin]

Brahmos is a challenge but not an invincible wunderwaffe.

 

[bloo]

Just go through the relevant threads on BrahMos. There is lots of information already available. All these points have been discussed to death. And before commenting on a member's expertise, take a few moments off to read their previous posts on other threads.

Do point out where I overstated something, coz my knowledge stretches as far as the internet.

I strongly suspect the 'high diving' in the case of Brahmos referes to the air launch version (see flight path illustrations below). In that sense it is not new: from 1962 to 2007 the Russian deployed a supersonic highdiving missile AS-4 Kelt/Kh22.

I would like to disagree coz the air-launched BrahMos is still under-development and according to recent news it will be inducted not before 2013.
The Supersonic dive was reported on 2010 on the BrahMos Block-2, which is a land attack version.

BRAHMOS Block-II test-fired with advanced supersonic dive manoeuvrability :: BrahMos.com

Brahmos is a challenge but not an invincible wunderwaffe.

No one is saying its invulnerable.
As technology progresses the countermeasures too will progress.
But judging by today's standards BrahMos is definitely badass.