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Pakistan Navy: The Phoenix Rises

@Oscar It's worth noting that the Chinese have been floating a technology demonstrator in the Qing-class. The hull was designed with VLS for SLBMs and SLCMs, but the Qing is markedly smaller and lighter than the PLAN's existing SSN and SSBN designs. Granted, the Qing demonstrator is conventionally powered, but if it is ever put into production, it is likely the PLAN would power it with a reactor. All I am saying is that if Pakistan manages to succeed in producing a miniaturized nuclear reactor that has sufficient energy output and an acceptable amount of acoustic vulnerability, there are hulls out there that can take it. Just speaking theoretically.
 
The issue with the nuclear submarine program has to do a lot with platform and power generation requirements as coming up with a Golf class retrofit for a conventional sub with a scaled AIP was found to be infeasible.(why is beyond me). The reactor was well advanced in its design phases some 5 years ago and construction on the facilities has been underway before that.

There will be a test ship that could very well be a Yuan or a different class to essentially trial the powerplant.
I have a question if you could answer. We know that nuclear subs cant be bought but they sure can be leased. So if a nuclear sub is a part of our deterrent, why havent we leased a sub from China? Leasing could give two benefits 1) we will have a platform rather quicker with second strike capability and 2) we will get a platform to work with and from there we can move on on our own.
Your thoughts?
 
I have a question if you could answer. We know that nuclear subs cant be bought but they sure can be leased. So if a nuclear sub is a part of our deterrent, why havent we leased a sub from China? Leasing could give two benefits 1) we will have a platform rather quicker with second strike capability and 2) we will get a platform to work with and from there we can move on on our own.
Your thoughts?
because china has not enough nuclear subs to fulfil its own needs yet.
 
because china has not enough nuclear subs to fulfil its own needs yet.
That might be the case but there are always exceptions. What i wanted to know is that whether or not Pakistan even tried to acquire one?
 
Hi dear @Blue Marlin
Lets assume you're not familiar with indian R&D in reactors or our installations.Just for your information that is NOT a warehouse--the building in which this naval reactor is operational is part of a bigger nuclear power plant situated in a city called "kalpakkam". This building is huge--there is no way one wouldnt have known the presence of a "new" 85MW reactor operational in this building.
so my point still stands subs reactors are tiny as compared to comercail one your pic proves that. and the fact that theres no exposed current/future designed reactors of any navy/ country
 
@Oscar sir just a wierd question ... I am not sure whether you can answere or not ... Is there any submarine capable of underwater to air missiles to hunt down planes ... Specially anti.submarine warfare type ...
 
Hi I never knew you had problems comprehending my english.Its alright! Btw,Did I ever ask for any "sensitive technical parameters" of a pakistani reactor that exists in the fantasies of our pakistani members?-No,right?How come asking for a credible report or statements from their nuclear energy commission,their navy or intelligence agencies is tantamount to asking "sensitive information"?
I think you are repeatedly missing my point and that is--listen to it very very carefully--If there existed a reactor inside a building-people will eventually get to know about it!


Hi dear @Oscar
yeah ofcourse it exists in your "speculated arguments" and also in the fantasies of a lot of members here.You can of course choose to NOT waste your time on something you can never prove--itz your wish.But a more fruitful approach will be to "analyze feasibility of a project" based on "established industrial and research facilities of any particular country(both india and pakistan included)"
how on earth do expect white boy to find pic on a pakistani reactor. do you think the indians will give me pic of their reactor? i gave to you what you ask for. mate someone coded you wrong as its like an infinite loop with you.
you asked for statements, now do a bit of finger work and search for yourself and as a starter look for reports in 2012.
there are there.
 
Pakistan Navy needs to have offensive strategy now ...it needs i think 3 tf2000, 8 more f22p frigates, tf100, if possible then 3 t214 german submarines and for air power we should either get russian su35 or mirage 2000 from uae to fill the gap for next 10yrs as we have been working with mirages ...
 
@Oscar sir just a wierd question ... I am not sure whether you can answere or not ... Is there any submarine capable of underwater to air missiles to hunt down planes ... Specially anti.submarine warfare type ...
not right now but few systems are in making i think but their status is still unclear. read this wiki page you will get the basic info about the system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDAS_(missile)
 
not right now but few systems are in making i think but their status is still unclear. read this wiki page you will get the basic info about the system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDAS_(missile)
I suggest we should evaluate this tech and try to acquire ... It will be a completely game changer against anti.submarine warfare ... If equipped with passivbe sensors it will not compromise submarine location and will force anti.submarine planes from pakistani water ...
 
I suggest we should evaluate this tech and try to acquire ... It will be a completely game changer against anti.submarine warfare ... If equipped with passivbe sensors it will not compromise submarine location and will force anti.submarine planes from pakistani water ...
this missile is last ditch type system as after the launch every enemy asset will know the position of the sub and it is good as dead and let me remind you bro a sub is more valuable than anything that is hunting it even a p 8 poseidon. so unless sub is cornered such missiles should never be used.
 
I would like to invite everyone to think about Pakistan's strategy in light of the recent altercation between a US Navy ship and the Houthi rebels. For me, the lesson learnt (and the reason I am posting this here), is that security requirements must be viewed in the full context of enemy capability... but more on that later. First, let me copy appropriate bits of the news (sorry I am not allowed to post links)

*Start News* -------->
After being targeted by two missile launches off the coast of Yemen, the USS Mason, a guided missile destroyer, fired two missiles in defense.

The USS Mason fired missiles defending itself and the USS Ponce, an amphibious dock ship, after it detected inbound cruise missiles presumably fired from Houthi militants on shore in Yemen.

This follows an October 1 incident where a former US Navy ship, the United Arab Emirates' HSV Swift, sustained severe damages from a guided missile fired from Yemen. In the case of the HSV Swift, the Houthis claimed responsibility.

The Mason launched two Standard Missile-2s (SM-2s) and a Enhanced Sea Sparrow Missile (ESSM) to intercept the two inbound missiles, also deploying a Nulka-class anti-ship decoy, at around 7 pm local time, sources told USNI News.

While the Mason did fire defensive missiles and the incoming missiles didn't hit their target, it's not clear if the SM-2s did their job, or if the incoming missile, likely a 1990s vintage Chinese-made cruise missile supplied to Houthi militants by Iran, simply sputtered out and hit the water of its own accord.

The Pentagon confirmed to Business Insider that they were investigating the incident at sea, but would not confirm the firing of the SM-2 missiles.

Instead, the Pentagon only said that "defensive countermeasures" had been taken.

SM-2s, in service with the US Navy for more than 20 years, cost nearly $1 million each.

<--------- *End News*

There is a lot to be learnt here. First, the Houthis, basically a rag tag group as compared to the US, had the temerity to fire a missile at the world's superpower. Secondly, there are questions around the old technology being able to actually work. The choice of words in the article: 'it's not clear if the SM-2s did their job, or if the incoming missile, likely a 1990s vintage Chinese-made cruise missile supplied to Houthi militants by Iran, simply sputtered out and hit the water of its own accord.' is very interesting. And this leads to the third insight: a million dollar missile developed over 20 years couldn't do the job it was supposed to do.

Bringing the conversation back to Pakistan:

1. Would a solid land based naval defence suffice?

2. How much augmentation does the land based system need from ships and submarine assets?

3. All this talk about VLS etc. to attack land targets is fine, but what about defending the ship itself? If 1 ship came under attack by 5 Indian ships at the same time, it would be a sitting duck! I would like more discussion on technologies that can be used to protect the ship itself.

4. Given the realities of naval warfare as reflected by the article above, do small navies stand any chance against larger opponents? What are some naval force multipliers that Pakistan could gain which India couldn't?

To provide some answers, I'll throw this fundamental challenge: If we are going to invest literally billions of dollars in naval assets, it must be mandated that these assets should have stealth technology. Yes, it sounds far fetched, but a nation that can develop nukes against all odds, and now we are hearing about a miniaturized nuclear reactor as well, such a nation can definitely master stealth.

Perspectives, opinions, comments plz.
 
this missile is last ditch type system as after the launch every enemy asset will know the position of the sub and it is good as dead and let me remind you bro a sub is more valuable than anything that is hunting it even a p 8 poseidon. so unless sub is cornered such missiles should never be used.
Agreed but there could be alot of potential scenarios ... One is sub is cornered and no option but to retaliate .. Second option is that cruise missile capsule is designed to be stealthy and reveal itself after travelling several mikes away from submarine ...
 
1. Would a solid land based naval defence suffice?
no it won't we do need surface assets too.
2. How much augmentation does the land based system need from ships and submarine assets?
subs can't do much but ships can guide the missiles launched by the ground based launchers but it depends where the ship is? how far can it see(hight of the mast)?does it have net centric capabilities?
best thing to guide the missiles are air based systems like zdk 03 and p 3 as they can see much further than ships and get in position relatively faster.
3. All this talk about VLS etc. to attack land targets is fine, but what about defending the ship itself? If 1 ship came under attack by 5 Indian ships at the same time, it would be a sitting duck! I would like more discussion on technologies that can be used to protect the ship itself.
it is good as dead. 8 hq 7 short range missile magazine of f22p are worthless if saturation attack happen as ciws can only do so much.we need more sams on the ships not the land attack cruise missiles as posted by some members here that job can be done through land based systems too but land base systems can't protect a ship from the attack thats the job it has to do itself (in most cases).
4. Given the realities of naval warfare as reflected by the article above, do small navies stand any chance against larger opponents? What are some naval force multipliers that Pakistan could gain which India couldn't?
yes use small but many missile boats, coastal launchers and guiding aircraft combo with great fighter cover all woven with each other through data links and you are set for a good defence (not offence).

Agreed but there could be alot of potential scenarios ... One is sub is cornered and no option but to retaliate .. Second option is that cruise missile capsule is designed to be stealthy and reveal itself after travelling several mikes away from submarine ...
bro we are talking about a sub here where even a running crew member can potentially give away its position.and you want to stealthily launch a surface to air missile from it.
 

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