Pakistan Navy: The Phoenix Rises

[The SC]

why re-invent the wheel ??

So yours is like Brahmos a JV with Russia!?

 

[ghazi768]

Pardon me for raising this issue,but does PN have dedicated VLF antennae infrastructure that lets submarines talk to ground stations?

No idea.
I am no expert on this technology but my impression was that it was one way traffic.

Hi

Hi ghazi bhayya ... Nuclear submarine is required to form a true and reliable nuclear triad ... India is investing heavily in SAMs to counter ****'s missles ... Pakistan's cruise missiles may evade long range and medium range SAMs but defeating a point defence SAMs is not an easu task for cruise missle .. On the contrary mirv capable ballistic missiles are almost impossible to stop reliablyy ... Thats the main reason Pakistan wants nuclear submarine ... Only one of such submarine can serve the purpose ... It will be a great deterrent just like nasar...

where did I say cruise missile?

 

[The SC]

The AW101 would if it wasn't so damn expensive. At 20 million USD per aircraft it's half as costly as the NH90 which runs for around 45 million USD, but the AW101 is still 130% more costly then the average for the class.

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If Pakistan can afford them, they are well worth the cost. And these would be new airframes, not second hand Sea Kings or S-70s, they'd be fresh off the production line.

It depends how many of them Pakistan needs at the moment..if just 10, it might be affordable and the numbers can be increased in batches in the future.. 200 million$ at a time..

 

[Fenrir]

It depends how many of them Pakistan needs at the moment..if just 10, it might be affordable and the numbers can be increased in batches in the future.. 200 million$ at a time..

Even 10 is iffy as being affordable. Norway bought 16 for 1.15 Billion Euros. Like any prospective Pakistani contract, this includes maintenance support, training and an option additional 6 airframes. Regardless, that's costly anyway you look at it.

Unlike, say, the F-16, spares don't yet exist and there is no second hand market that could yield airframes of lower cost. Adding to this, the airframe suffers from another problem the F-16 didn't - economy of scales. There simply aren't enough AW101s being produced to lower the cost either.

As a result airframes, like this Norwegian AW101 during a test flight, are very costly.

Buying bulk batches, future orders or other financial tricks that are seen with the F-35 and long-run production items:

https://defence.pk/threads/norway-plans-to-buy-12-f-35-jets-in-2019-2020.455160/

Don't yield fruit because the scale simply isn't high enough, especially when competition is coming from very high quality alternatives:

I understand your reasoning, but the scale just isn't there to support it. Norway's case isn't dissimilar from other nations like Portugal or Denmark, it's costly for everyone regardless of the number being bought,

That said, it's still cheap enough that purchasing the type would be a strong move that could support the Pakistan Military for decades, especially as these would be new airframes packed with the best tech around today.

where AW-139 stands when compared to helicopters mentioned in thread? Pakistan is already acquiring those so if they fits the category and role then logical option should be to increase the order for ease of maintenance and training.

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Se...an-acquiring-AW139-helicopters/7361464186946/

the AW139 is physically smaller and has a lower payload capacity then either the NH90 or AW101. Less cargo, less troops, smaller sensors, less armament, but also less cost.

The NH90 and AW101 have replaced our Lynx and Sea Kings and will phase out the Bell 214 in military service, but we're also a user of the AW139 as an air ambulance and it's a great platform, just less suited for military duties.

The AW139 is a very good option for a military on a budget, but it's not quite in the same class as either the NH90 or AW101. It's just less suited for ASW or AShW and more geared towards SAR or transporation if used in the military domain:

Both the NH90 and AW101 are potent naval strike platforms, as well as transport and SAR airframes:

Since Pakistan is opting for the AW139 for use in non-military roles, or as a support platform, it's a valued asset and I whole heartedly support its acquisition.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Nasr is short range ballistic missile
It is legal to export them

Its actually a quasi ballistic missile..

 

[The SC]

Even 10 is iffy as being affordable. Norway bought 16 for 1.15 Billion Euros. Like any prospective Pakistani contract, this includes maintenance support, training and an option additional 6 airframes. Regardless, that's costly anyway you look at it.

Unlike, say, the F-16, spares don't yet exist and there is no second hand market that could yield airframes of lower cost. Adding to this, the airframe suffers from another problem the F-16 didn't - economy of scales. There simply aren't enough AW101s being produced to lower the cost either.

As a result airframes, like this Norwegian AW101 during a test flight, are very costly.

Buying bulk batches, future orders or other financial tricks that are seen with the F-35 and long-run production items:

https://defence.pk/threads/norway-plans-to-buy-12-f-35-jets-in-2019-2020.455160/

Don't yield fruit because the scale simply isn't high enough, especially when competition is coming from very high quality alternatives:

.

The alternatives come at almost double the price!

NH90

KA-52K

Italian EH101

CYCLONE naval helicopter

 

[amardeep mishra]

the pic you showed of the indian reactor clearly showed the reactor in a warehouse.

Hi dear @Blue Marlin
Lets assume you're not familiar with indian R&D in reactors or our installations.Just for your information that is NOT a warehouse--the building in which this naval reactor is operational is part of a bigger nuclear power plant situated in a city called "kalpakkam". This building is huge--there is no way one wouldnt have known the presence of a "new" 85MW reactor operational in this building.

 

[SQ8]

The problem with nuclear reactors though is,if "there exists" one,the whole world will know about it! It is a freaking power plant-although a smaller one! It is not as easy as lets say hiding your nukes


@Oscar
Again,"if it exists" the whole world will know about it as it is a NUCLEAR POWER PLANT and not a warhead that you can hide in trucks or something else! The sheer size required(I am talking about the building and required infrastructure etc) to construct the naval prototype will reveal if pakistan does indeed have a naval reactor. And to be honest,no one under estimates pakistan. We very well know "how" pakistan acquires itz strategic weapons--but at the end of the day-what matters is,no matter how illegally pakistan would have eventually realized her nuclear ambitions--it can still wreak havoc!
But here we are not talking about nukes,we are talking about a "nuclear plant" that cant remain hidden for long.Btw,how do you think you will hide a complete nuclear power plant?

You are preaching something that I cannot agree with because I know different. I'll say it exists, and I know it does; and that is that and have no wish to dispute your protests that it doesn't just as I have no wish to WASTE my time with your circular arguments.

 

[amardeep mishra]

next time dont ask me to show evidance of something sensitive, as you know its impossible to show.

Hi I never knew you had problems comprehending my english.Its alright! Btw,Did I ever ask for any "sensitive technical parameters" of a pakistani reactor that exists in the fantasies of our pakistani members?-No,right?How come asking for a credible report or statements from their nuclear energy commission,their navy or intelligence agencies is tantamount to asking "sensitive information"?
I think you are repeatedly missing my point and that is--listen to it very very carefully--If there existed a reactor inside a building-people will eventually get to know about it!

I'll say it exists, and I know it does; and that is that and have no wish to dispute your protests that it doesn't just as I have no wish to WASTE my time with your circular arguments.

Hi dear @Oscar
yeah ofcourse it exists in your "speculated arguments" and also in the fantasies of a lot of members here.You can of course choose to NOT waste your time on something you can never prove--itz your wish.But a more fruitful approach will be to "analyze feasibility of a project" based on "established industrial and research facilities of any particular country(both india and pakistan included)"

 

[SQ8]

Hi I never knew you had problems comprehending my english.Its alright! Btw,Did I ever ask for any "sensitive technical parameters" of a pakistani reactor that exists in the fantasies of our pakistani members?-No,right?How come asking for a credible report or statements from their nuclear energy commission,their navy or intelligence agencies is tantamount to asking "sensitive information"?
I think you are repeatedly missing my point and that is--listen to it very very carefully--If there existed a reactor inside a building-people will eventually get to know about it!


Hi dear @Oscar
yeah ofcourse it exists in your "speculated arguments" and also in the fantasies of a lot of members here.You can of course choose to NOT waste your time on something you can never prove--itz your wish.But a more fruitful approach will be to "analyze feasibility of a project" based on "established industrial and research facilities of any particular country(both india and pakistan included)"

Ill stick with my wish as I have literally nothing to prove to you.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Ill stick with my wish as I have literally nothing to prove to you.

@Oscar
Cool then!As usual,nothing gets proved however lets see if this reactor gets revealed in next 10 years! We're all waiting!

 

[SQ8]

It is a success of our operations that nobody ever knew about it. People still don't know a lot about our infrastructure and plans, and many of you just speculate and look for releases. Do you speak for state of India or US or CIA? If they knew they won't be telling you. Keep asking the think tanks.

It has to do with the nature of their defence industry where even the attachment of one rivet is announced with garlands & sweets along with a 30 minute segment on their news networks where the said rivet is proclaimed to contain elements heretofore unknown to man.

When it comes to Pakistan, we can park a Jumbo jet in front of them and they'll walk around it saying " I dont see anything, this aircraft shaped metal is fake and from China".

In that case regarding their wish to be converted and convinced that would make many a preacher bang their head, I adopt the policy of "sanu ki" .

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Your problem is you thinking I am trying to prove you wrong. My notion is to NOT convince you of what I know to be true. You have in your own post outlined how it could have been achieved.
I have no reason or wish to convince you, But if you are attempting to convince me that it is not possible then I will disagree. This is not a case of. "If Pakistan build the JF-17 it can do a 5th generation fighter" , this is a case of "it exists and I have it on very very good authority".
I can bet this claim on my reputation, can you do the same if this becomes public 10 years from now?

We actually appreciate this skepticism because it helps our wish to keep India and Indians continuously underestimating us.
No hard feelings.

"Only the paranoid survive", Andy Grove- one of the founding fathers of Intel and Holocaust survivor

IMHO, you're doing OK so far. Even after having the third largest army and being the biggest importer of weapons, if it all boils down to outsourcing to Hanuman (previously Mujib, Mukti Bahini; currently TTP, BLA etc.) Pak has already succeeded...

 

[SQ8]

My knowledge of naval warfare and submarine warfare is limited. But in interest of general readership here writing what I have heard or read in general.

Nuclear strategic subs have some pros and cons as well. They can remain submerged for very long times conditional to stores of foods and other necessities they can carry and the length of duty the crew is deemed to carry on while still having sound psychological, emotional and physical health. Which unfortunately is not considered to be too long duration because of the environment they have to operate in. This results in maintaining complex logistics operations and if you are planning to operate in many oceans a set of bases. During cold war both US and soviets needed to maintain a set of far off bases to allow their nuclear subs to operate the world over. If we plan to operate a deterrent force out of Indian ocean lets say in Pacific and Atlantic, is it possible? do we have the economic/financial and military might to even secure one base in each to operate from?

Also because of being nuclear, they do generate low frequency sound radiation which is more detectable at distance using passive sonar arrays and also tend to be quite unique allowing categorisation as well. They also tend to generate thermal radiation and cannot avoid this as being nuclear, which also makes it impossible for them to remain stationary unless they are under the Arctic ice cap (which is by the way how most of soviet strategic subs operated but than required large sets of hunter-killer escorts to keep US hunter-killers away). Even if they remain stationary they still generate low frequency acoustic radiation.

Diesel-electrics when stationary from what I have heard from an expert submariner is like 'pin drop silence'. In such states you can only hunt them with active sonars which being high-medium frequency have 5-10 nm range at best. And also means that unless you are right on top of that sub, that sub will detect you far more away and be able to take evasive actions to avoid detection. DEs main weakness from second world war onward was need to recharge batteries, this needed them to at-least snorkel periodically which increased chances of detection. Better battery technology and AIPs have changed this (but all AIPs are not created equal and do tend to increase LF acoustic radiation).

Now if you do not give a damn about power symbols and or going around the world in 80 days and have a large and very deep ocean just besides you. What will you do? plan on operating in Pacific or Atlantic or Arctic?

What I "suspect" we'll have get is 4 + 4 resulting in 7 + 4 and increased in future more especially HK. With VLF infrastructure ready and resulting 'talking' within different participants and with Command, 3+1 is a hell of a tag team.

The issue with the nuclear submarine program has to do a lot with platform and power generation requirements as coming up with a Golf class retrofit for a conventional sub with a scaled AIP was found to be infeasible.(why is beyond me). The reactor was well advanced in its design phases some 5 years ago and construction on the facilities has been underway before that.

There will be a test ship that could very well be a Yuan or a different class to essentially trial the powerplant.

 

[Zarvan]

@Oscar
Cool then!As usual,nothing gets proved however lets see if this reactor gets revealed in next 10 years! We're all waiting!

Reactor will be revealed really soon work is done and so @Oscar knew about this when I was talking about reactor here on forum few months ago. You chose to remain quite. By the way I think our nuclear submarine would be similar to this future project of China also called Type 98