Pakistan Navy: The Phoenix Rises

[Arsalan]

Hi @Arsalan
yes,I agree,perhaps I wouldnt have known if they were really working on such a thing.But intelligence agencies would have known by now. Anyways,dont you think pakistan with practically no experience of designing "power reactors" would take considerably longer time to put up reactor system in place than it took for india?--kindly note it took almost 2 decades just to perfect the naval reactor design and integrate it with hull especially when india have had decent experience with PHWRs and has designed fast breeder,AHWR and even CHTR reactors. Kindly note,I am not even touching upon various other aspects since I am sure it will meet the same response.
In my opinion,in the absence of any concrete evidence,It is best for us to wait instead of speculating.

Nops, Even the intelligent agencies do not know it all. I gave you an example already and that too is not known. That is why i said that it is not as simple as you think it is and there are many things that are closely and successfully guarder secrets.

Anyways,dont you think pakistan with practically no experience of designing "power reactors" would take considerably longer time to put up reactor system in place than it took for india?--kindly note it took almost 2 decades just to perfect the naval reactor design and integrate it with hull especially when india have had decent experience with PHWRs and has designed fast breeder,AHWR and even CHTR reactors.

It surely would have but then again what makes you assume the starting date of any such project?

Anyway, as i said, i wont be able to share any details and cannot force you to change what you believe in by default. All i say is that the assumptions are grossly mistaken and "IF" there was any such project up and running you wont be knowing about that anyway so just relax

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi @Arsalan
yes,I agree,perhaps I wouldnt have known if they were really working on such a thing.But intelligence agencies would have known by now. Anyways,dont you think pakistan with practically no experience of designing "power reactors" would take considerably longer time to put up reactor system in place than it took for india?--kindly note it took almost 2 decades just to perfect the naval reactor design and integrate it with hull especially when india have had decent experience with PHWRs and has designed fast breeder,AHWR and even CHTR reactors. Kindly note,I am not even touching upon various other aspects since I am sure it will meet the same response.
In my opinion,in the absence of any concrete evidence,It is best for us to wait instead of speculating.

Well, if we want to use history as an indicator of capabilities, India took 30 years to deliver the Tejas. That tells you how we do it very differently in Pakistan.

 

[Rahim Malik]

Our navy has some tremendous valor- its time to be offensive this time!!

 

[The Eagle]

But intelligence agencies would have known by now.

There are certain things in such matter to be kept in view as follows:-

1. Intelligence agencies fails sometimes that on one hand due to own incompetence and other hand the best to describe the same is "Counter Intelligence" fed by the A party.

2. Sometimes Agencies feed and paint the wrong information to the public and world, to dig-out a reason for pressure and invasion i.e. what happened in Iraq, the fake WMD's and Blair's confession as well but the country was bombed.

3. Sometimes Intelligence Agencies have the right information but such threats are not shared in public domain until & unless, strictly, for the discussions and counter measures behind the closed doors with specific relevant people only and with other Intelligence Agencies under the agreements between 2 allies.

4. Sometimes agencies leaks the data of rival by deliberate attempt to achieve the targets that have been set by the agency for own goals and schemes against the enemy.

5. Sometimes, there is no such kind of power, a threatening hammer in hand of A party against the rival but still A party propagates the same with every mean and source available (Media, social etc) to keep other under pressure but the same does not survive long or depends upon the capabilities for the B party to deal with.

6. Sometimes even agencies are well aware with the threat from rival but play low and portrays as knowing nothing, for the better results and for an impact at the right time.

So, think how it is working if you are aware with such things but seeking such information which is not available at the public domain, is not the right place nor a wise decision and for the same either you have to ask your higher sources at your home or wait till the same made public by either parties or anyone.

However, IMO, whatever the intelligence is gathered or worked upon, there are strict rules of game that all parties follows strictly otherwise. conclusion would be one versus all the rest of the parties for blowing covers of game in front of the people.

Just saying.

 

[YeBeWarned]

There are certain things in such matter to be kept in view as follows:-

1. Intelligence agencies fails sometimes that on one hand due to own incompetence and other hand the best to describe the same is "Counter Intelligence" fed by the A party.

2. Sometimes Agencies feed and paint the wrong information to the public and world, to dig-out a reason for pressure and invasion i.e. what happened in Iraq, the fake WMD's and Blair's confession as well but the country was bombed.

3. Sometimes Intelligence Agencies have the right information but such threats are not shared in public domain until & unless, strictly, for the discussions and counter measures behind the closed doors with specific relevant people only and with other Intelligence Agencies under the agreements between 2 allies.

4. Sometimes agencies leaks the data of rival by deliberate attempt to achieve the targets that have been set by the agency for own goals and schemes against the enemy.

5. Sometimes, there is no such kind of power, a threatening hammer in hand of A party against the rival but still A party propagates the same with every mean and source available (Media, social etc) to keep other under pressure but the same does not survive long or depends upon the capabilities for the B party to deal with.

6. Sometimes even agencies are well aware with the threat from rival but play low and portrays as knowing nothing, for the better results and for an impact at the right time.

So, think how it is working if you are aware with such things but seeking such information which is not available at the public domain, is not the right place nor a wise decision and for the same either you have to ask your higher sources at your home or wait till the same made public by either parties or anyone.

However, IMO, whatever the intelligence is gathered or worked upon, there are strict rules of game that all parties follows strictly otherwise. conclusion would be one versus all the rest of the parties for blowing covers of game in front of the people.

Just saying.

CIA was sleeping and the Soviets Moved in Afghanistan ..
CIA missed 4 planes been hijacked and 2 been crashed at WTC, and one at Pentagon ..
CIA Missed ISIS taking Territory and even capturing the second Largest City in Iraq ..

whatever you said in post is completely hit the nail but above are some examples how Intelligence Agencies , specially the best ones failed ..when a country wants to keep a secret , it can and sometimes the rival Agency keeps a Blind a eye for some unknown Interest
who knows that CIA might know about our Sub developments but keep a Shhh on the Matter like they did with our nukes

 

[wiseone2]

CIA was sleeping and the Soviets Moved in Afghanistan ..
CIA missed 4 planes been hijacked and 2 been crashed at WTC, and one at Pentagon ..
CIA Missed ISIS taking Territory and even capturing the second Largest City in Iraq ..

whatever you said in post is completely hit the nail but above are some examples how Intelligence Agencies , specially the best ones failed ..when a country wants to keep a secret , it can and sometimes the rival Agency keeps a Blind a eye for some unknown Interest
who knows that CIA might know about our Sub developments but keep a Shhh on the Matter like they did with our nukes

CIA was aware of Soviet troop movements leading to invasion of Afghanistan

CIA missed 9/11. It was not like Bin laden was not on their radar

What is the big deal about ISIS ??

 

[amardeep mishra]

Well, if we want to use history as an indicator of capabilities, India took 30 years to deliver the Tejas. That tells you how we do it very differently in Pakistan.

Hi my dear @CriticalThought
Before I commence my answer,Would you mind telling me your particular experience or knowledge of aerospace research?It will not only save a lot of our time but also help put things into perspective. A lot has been written in our media by journalists and 'analysts' alike without knowing in details of our program. Now since I am someone pursuing my research in aerospace engineering and have seen/involved in some of these projects,allow me to shed some light.
I wonder since when did launching GSQR by IAF become actual date of the program?LCA program was officially launched in 1993 and NOT in 1984 as is OFTEN quoted in both print and electronic media. By official launch I mean full scale funding and involvement of all the research parties.India has ALWAYS been much more transparent in her R&D efforts and has openly acknowledged any help taken or accomplishment achieved. Back in 80s,when the idea of such a plane was first ever mooted by IAF,india did not even have basic Labs required for conducting some fundamental work. India lacked even supersonic wind tunnel! India also was completely clue less in composites--which has now become one of two very strong areas in india. Throughout 80s and 90s,all india did was first establish required research infrastructure for the LCA project. This process of building up of research infrastructure in the country started well before the actual starting date of the project. Of course,it took a lot of time for them because their goal was very ambitious in the sense,they wanted to design everything in house--right from engine,radars to the platform itself! In fact DRDO/HAL did achieve varying degrees of successes in these three. But considering everything,the first flight took place in 2001 or in just 8 years after official launching of the program. People normally confuse first flight or the prototype with full fledged aircraft but in reality first flight checks very modest and conservative flight envelope.
Project Management wasnt really something great as the prime user of the platform i.e IAF wasnt involved in the R&D from the beginning. At the end of the day,india succeeded in designing her own platform and along the way established a whole eco-system of public/private companies and academic institutions like my owns that can support the project. India has also gathered decent experience with designing and development of gas turbine engine using which various other GTs can be designed.Two of the gem technologies that india mastered along the LCA was RSS+FBW and composites. India can in future implement these two in any fighter program based on of course the vehicle dynamics.
pakistan on the other hand had china for all the design related work--itz like saying PAKFA is our own design--but we very well know the basic platform has been designed by russia in latter case and china in the former case.

 

[CriticalThought]

@amardeep mishra thanks for elaborating what I m trying to say. Whereas India tries to do everything from scratch, in Pakistan we seek to expedite things any way we can

 

[Penguin]

CIA was sleeping and the Soviets Moved in Afghanistan ..
CIA missed 4 planes been hijacked and 2 been crashed at WTC, and one at Pentagon ..
CIA Missed ISIS taking Territory and even capturing the second Largest City in Iraq ..

whatever you said in post is completely hit the nail but above are some examples how Intelligence Agencies , specially the best ones failed ..when a country wants to keep a secret , it can and sometimes the rival Agency keeps a Blind a eye for some unknown Interest
who knows that CIA might know about our Sub developments but keep a Shhh on the Matter like they did with our nukes

And yet thecia gets blamed for everything .... lol

 

[YeBeWarned]

And yet thecia gets blamed for everything .... lol

one can blame it on anyone
like our neighbors tends to blame everything on Pakistan and ISI

Enjoy how our Neighbors are blaming Pakistan Army to Train and help ISIS and the Leaders of ISIS Are already getting their bags pack to come to Islamabad for a Honeymoon Holiday

 

[Green Arrow]

I once had conversation with Ex Nuclear Scientist Sultan Bashir ud Din Mehmood and as per him ''the Idea of nuclear Submarine first came up around 1996-97''. Even My Brother in Law who is also nuclear engineer has once mentioned that the work on Nuclear sub is already under way and nearly on completion now.

 

[Army research]

I once had conversation with Ex Nuclear Scientist Sultan Bashir ud Din Mehmood and as per him ''the Idea of nuclear Submarine first came up around 1996-97''. Even My Brother in Law who is also nuclear engineer has once mentioned that the work on Nuclear sub is already under way and nearly on completion now.

Please don't share exact name

 

[randomradio]

By 1983 CIA was aware of Pakistani nuclear program. India was aware by 1985-1986

Incorrect. Morarji Desai informed Pakistan of its weapons program back in 1978.

 

[niaz]

Being a book worm & a nerd, I spend lot of time surfing & reading any article that catches my fancy. There are lot more articles written about Indian military in the international press than there are about Pakistan and quite a few by the dreamers and not worth much. It up to the reader to rationalize and decide as to what is achievable.

Since I have no wish to be part of the brigade who is always trying to prove Pakistan & Pakistani products are better and feeling good about it. Many of my compatriots must be wondering why sometimes my posts appear to favour India over Pakistan. It is not because I am any less patriotic; it is just that I am too much of a realist.

In my humble opinion, greatest mistake one can make is to “Underestimate” the enemy’s strength. Forgetting about what we would like to achieve or to have; most important thing is to realistically assess what your adversary possesses; guess his intentions and then devise plans to make best use of your assets to thwart your enemy’s objectives.

Here are the links to two articles, one published in the international press and second a 100 page document detailing Indian Naval long term Strategy. Reading the naval strategy article will take some time but it gives an insight in to the thinking of Indian Naval General Staff.

It is clear that India Naval ambitions go for beyond being Pakistan-centric. In my considered opinion; if Pakistan Navy can succeed in make any attempt to block Pakistan’s sea lanes very expensive in terms of men & material, PN would have done their job.

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/sites...ritime_Security_Strategy_Document_25Jan16.pdf

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-showcase-india-s-61-billion-warning-to-china