Pakistan Navy interested in J-11Bs

[MZUBAIR]

Pakistan cant get J-11B untill WS13 developed and available

 

[nightcrawler]

What most people dont realize is that with newer missiles approaching terminal maneuverability of 50G+
All that TVC will only add a minor advantage compared to the expense in weight and complexity.
I dare ask..
HOW does adding mutiple actuators, thicker petals, heat protection for surrounding airframe..
save life on the engine???

Thats why they are expensive....
TVC isn't meant to be the only 'penicillin' against AAMs; if you can afford & you have technical expertise go for it. There occurs other benefits too..refer to Darky

 

[SQ8]

Now there are tons of advantages which come along with TVC nozzled turbofan engine.
Better takeoff and landing,

1. lesser control surfaces,
2. Better altitude climbing rate,
3. Shorter takeoff and landing,
4. lesser stress on control surfaces,
5. enhanced maneuverability,
6. superb control in supersonic flight..........and the list continues.

Currently there aren't any AAM missile doing 50gs but their advent in future would reduce TVCs ability to disengage them during terminal phase kinematically...........but when you talk of future why do you forget that it belongs to STEALTH and SUPERSONIC air combat which would depend a lot on TVC.
TVC nozzel increases lifetime of engine as greater thrust and heat is not required to attain a similar maneuver which would be required with an engine without TVC........but again you see the bars are raised and pilots would use similar thrust to attain even higher maneuverability.

wrong about the first.. you added a control system in the form of the TVC..

Incorrect about the second as well, Climbing rate is dependent upon T/W more than on the angle of the nozzle's.

Given.. still not sure how this is beneficial for the engine??

Big advantage.. at high speeds.. However, greater drag compared to control surfaces..
still not sure how it helps the engine..

Duhh.. on the fourth. Till off course the jet goes post stall.. and falls out of the sky.

Current stated maneuver rate for the Aim-9x , the IRIS-T is close to 60g's, supersonic.. And this is from everybody's favorite gossip box.. wikipedia.
The future also belongs to Energy weapons and UCAV's..

Still doesn't show how TVC is beneficial for the engine.. you are shooting tangents without answering the main question.

 

[SQ8]

TVC is not supposed to help the aircraft outmaneuver a missile ( which is near impossible as you said - modern missiles have near 50g limit), tvc helps in increasing maneuverability to about the level needed to break a radar lock. with no lock it doesnt matter which missiles you use

radar lock perhaps.. Even on that there is an interesting discourse on a popular forum.. best not to bring it up here.
I am curious as to how TVC can "break" the lock in a dual mode heatseeker..which can tell what is an aircraft and what is not.

 

[Pak_Sher]

The PN needs to have a stronger air wing that comprises of fighter aircraft, helis, survellance, transport aircrafts and UAVs. This is an urgent need and PN should not soley rely on PAF for all air support.

 

[desiman]

J-11B had nothing to do with Su-30-MKK, its related to Su-27. Su-30MKK had canards, while J-11B and Su-27 doesn't have. Similar to Russia's Su-30 has got its variants like Su-30 MKI & Su-30 MKM which have canards where as other variants like Su-30 MK no canards.

But remember J-11B still has an RCS of 3m^2 and 80% decrease from Su-27, it has superior climb-rate and better acceleration, the MKK is more maneuverble at subsonic speeds and heavier.

For Pakistan Navy, it can get superb done in job. Wil likely more upgraded.



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Perhaps, I think, it is a bit distraction mixing with J-10/JF-17 info in which people don't pay attentions. Thank you, Black Blood.

It does not have superior climb or acceleration over the SU-27, please check your sources before you make such huge claims. Now just because Pakistan has shown interest in the the J-11, it does not automatically make it better than everything else that fly's.

 

[Dazzler]

It does not have superior climb or acceleration over the SU-27, please check your sources before you make such huge claims. Now just because Pakistan has shown interest in the the J-11, it does not automatically make it better than everything else that fly's.

And the same applies to IAF and MKI love affair, just because IAF has it, does not mean it is superior to anything in the sub-continent, let alone in Asia.

 

[DARKY]

wrong about the first.. you added a control system in the form of the TVC..

Addition of all aspect 3D TVC eliminates the use of rudders, vertical stabilizers, canards etc.

Incorrect about the second as well, Climbing rate is dependent upon T/W more than on the angle of the nozzle's.

Bold parts.

Given.. still not sure how this is beneficial for the engine??

When the plane is with full load, take off is the most stressful period on engine.

Big advantage.. at high speeds.. However, greater drag compared to control surfaces..

Are you sure..........all the while it has been maintained that TVC reduces the number of control surfaces or reduces the size/surface area of such systems which obviously reduce drag in a huge manner.

Duhh.. on the fourth. Till off course the jet goes post stall.. and falls out of the sky.

I wish NG saw your point before designing FB-22.

Current stated maneuver rate for the Aim-9x , the IRIS-T is close to 60g's, supersonic.. And this is from everybody's favorite gossip box.. wikipedia.
The future also belongs to Energy weapons and UCAV's..

Ironically Aim9x itself uses 3D TVC nozzles and most of the upcoming UCAVs would also do the same.

Still doesn't show how TVC is beneficial for the engine.. you are shooting tangents without answering the main question.

TVC allows the engine to perform a certain maneuver without much/substantial increase in thrust as in case with non TVC fighters and sometimes even in dry thrust........hence lesser heating of core, engine blades etc.

 

[DARKY]

Now you are getting really boring, some how you are very sure about JFT RCS?

I never claimed the RCS of JF-17 rather I placed it somewhere between 5-7m2 which usually is the RCS of such smaller planes when armed with external loads.

Wonder if PAF told you secretly?

Wish they did....lOl

Everything seems to be in favor of mighty MKI whether it is aggressor or defender? Some hefty measure of logic you have here, biased too.

Look NO WEAPON IS FORMIDABLE afterall humans have made them Yes you JF-17 might score some kills but that would be rare.

Please do some reading on those pods before wasting the bandwidth next time....

The basic rule of ECM superiority is bigger and powerful bird win hands down as it supports more Electronics and cooling systems for them and provide adequate power required..........yes ALP-131 is a good self defense jammer but sorry to say BARS have noise level of about 3db which is less than that of Ibris E and equal to AN/APG series of AESA radars it could work on earlier NIIP variants but would have trouble catching up with such low noise level(in case of BARS) and frequency hopping agility of BARS(I am not saying its useless)...........That Chinese jammer is not worth mentioning and I expect you to understand why.

Why don't you cheer up afterall you are getting flankers I wish your Govt. had enough money to buy Su35BMs they are damn good birds.

 

[SQ8]

Addition of all aspect 3D TVC eliminates the use of rudders, vertical stabilizers, canards etc.



Bold parts.

You can have the nozzles at 90 degrees relative as on a harrier..
But without sufficient thrust you will just fall out of the sky.

When the plane is with full load, take off is the most stressful period on engine.

Would be the same with an operational TVC.. The Harrier used TVC to take off in STOL mode... reduced the take off run.. not the stress on the engine needed.

Are you sure..........all the while it has been maintained that TVC reduces the number of control surfaces or reduces the size/surface area of such systems which obviously reduce drag in a huge manner.

Supersonic... not subsonic... and even then.. TVC in a sustained maneuver bleeds speed faster than control surfaces.



I wish NG saw your point before designing FB-22.

I wish you understood the FB-22's design goals before bringing in that picture.
The FB-22 concept was designed to avoid dogfights.. . maintain LOW RCS at all times, which is where the TVC came in.

Ironically Aim9x itself uses 3D TVC nozzles and most of the upcoming UCAVs would also do the same.

Sarcasm has better applications.. TVC in a missile.. TVC on a jet.. two different scenario's. Which is why the most experience AF in the world chose to forgo TVC to its newest mainstay the F-35.. knowing that TVC equipped missiles paired with HMs would make short work of any dancing TVC equipped jets.

TVC allows the engine to perform a certain maneuver without much/substantial increase in thrust as in case with non TVC fighters and sometimes even in dry thrust........hence lesser heating of core, engine blades etc.

The aircraft is what performs the maneuver.. and whilst the maneuver is performed.. the aircraft loses speed faster than the non-TVC jet.
speed==energy .. the cornerstone of modern ACM.
making the TVC jet a sitting duck for other foes.


TVC 's benefits dont out-weight its costs..
Until there are TVC systems available that dont increase the weight of the jet by a ton or more.. its still useless for existing 4th gen jets.

A 6th Gen fighter, that relies solely on TVC.. has smaller control surfaces.. perhaps..

But then again.. what if it has an engine stall in combat??

 

[DARKY]

The aircraft is what performs the maneuver.. and whilst the maneuver is performed.. the aircraft loses speed faster than the non-TVC jet.
speed==energy .. the cornerstone of modern ACM.
making the TVC jet a sitting duck for other foes.


TVC 's benefits dont out-weight its costs..
Until there are TVC systems available that dont increase the weight of the jet by a ton or more.. its still useless for existing 4th gen jets.

A 6th Gen fighter, that relies solely on TVC.. has smaller control surfaces.. perhaps..

But then again.. what if it has an engine stall in combat??

Now TVC without sufficiently thrust engine is same as non TVC without sufficiently thrust or would say TVC could provide solution there if the additional weight does not damages T/W ratio further in an alarming way.
What you must understand is that with new breakthroughs in metallurgy and composite fiber technologies weight problem is an issue of past.
About cost effectiveness part British found that TVC saved 21% less fuel than a Non-TVC engine in a typical sortie plus the engines were able to generate 7% more dry thrust in supercruise flight with TVC which is a huge bonus.
You are just looking at the maneuver aspect of TVC while there are many other possibilities or advantages it offers.
About F-35 I suppose you understand that its just a cost effective solution to the chunks of aging F-16 fleets of NATO...........and they don't want to waste money on more potent F-22B/C as they have only got countries like lran, libya, north korea etc to fight with even a worthy F-22A oponent is yet to take the skies.
And don't worry you'll see designs like FB-22 flying as soon as 1st crop of 5th gen. joins the forces world wide.
Here's an example of maturing TVC technology compare the tailfins and rudders of Su 35BM and PAK FA.

 

[SQ8]

Now TVC without sufficiently thrust engine is same as non TVC without sufficiently thrust or would say TVC could provide solution there if the additional weight does not damages T/W ratio further in an alarming way.
What you must understand is that with new breakthroughs in metallurgy and composite fiber technologies weight problem is an issue of past.
About cost effectiveness part British found that TVC saved 21% less fuel than a Non-TVC engine in a typical sortie plus the engines were able to generate 7% more dry thrust in supercruise flight with TVC which is a huge bonus.
You are just looking at the maneuver aspect of TVC while there are many other possibilities or advantages it offers.
About F-35 I suppose you understand that its just a cost effective solution to the chunks of aging F-16 fleets of NATO...........and they don't want to waste money on more potent F-22B/C as they have only got countries like lran, libya, north korea etc to fight with even a worthy F-22A oponent is yet to take the skies.
And don't worry you'll see designs like FB-22 flying as soon as 1st crop of 5th gen. joins the forces world wide.
Here's an example of maturing TVC technology compare the tailfins and rudders of Su 35BM and PAK FA.

The size of the tailfins.. is because the ones on the PAK FA are all moving !! Therefore they generate an equal amount of aerodynamic force for their area as the Rudders on the Su-35BM do for its airframe
I think my discussion here is over ..

 

[Asian.Century]

I donot think it will benefit PN with these J-11s. Pakistan doesnot need them, we donot have any carrier . Also Mirages are dedicated as for PN support operations.

NO is the answer.!!!

 

[Arsalan]

I donot think it will benefit PN with these J-11s. Pakistan doesnot need them, we donot have any carrier . Also Mirages are dedicated as for PN support operations.

NO is the answer.!!!

to add a bit, these surely will add massive punch power to navy and will be very helpfull with beter lottering time but in current situation we must allocate fundes towards getting better frigates and submarines.
currently we only have three submarines and four frigates taht can be conidered as the major force of PN. all other subs and frigates and decades old and outdated.
we must try and get some Type-54 frigates from china or FT-2000 from turkey. and some latest subs as well. only then we must move on and eastablish a seprate air wing for navy.

my opinion!
regards!
Arsalan Aslam

 

[DARKY]