Pakistan Navy interested in J-11Bs

[ironman]

And I know of an SU-30 Commander, who was in the UK for a JSCC.


Well according to the same Commander, if he ever went into battle, he would prefer his old Stead, the Mirage-2000.
I guess that ball is still tossing around.

Sorry if it hurt you....

 

[Nav]

Sir if thats the case , shouldn't we be perusing navalized J-15s than J-11s ?

j-15 is still not mature enough to join PN. A batch of 50 j-11bs aircrafts Specialy Modifieded As Per PN requirment will fullfil The place of Mirages.
Instead of buying Frigates ,PN should go For Destroyer's.

 

[nightcrawler]

@notorious-eagle/
I don't know why every Pakistani bashed about TVC being not necessary...& I daresay that if tomorrow Chinese come up with a working TVC engine all will hail this effort & will want it for Pakistan as well.
TVC do has many benefits; its the only mechanical way (in case your electronics got bugged) to break the lock of AMRAAM. Though its risky but still sir this is the only option you got. So better giv the pilot a chance to save his a$$ rather than start praying in cockpit.
TVC are especially important when (in the future) you have got steath capability & you can sneak up to the enemy. Larger planes with their powerful radars will go active & paint the adversary plane while (from another direction) your sleek; stealth & TVC enabled plane will sneak up to the enemy (in passive mood) to take down it even with an WVR missile....In case of detection the only option to get out of the 'mess' is using TVC & agile planform because you already are close to enemy

 

[bigest]

good job

 

[DARKY]

So put a counter argument rather than putting one liners forward. This is not a good way to prove your point.At least you are being given a fair chance to prove your point . AVAIL IT!!!!
Araz

Its Insane how you people claim RCS of 3m2 no 4th/4.5th generation plane has a RCS <3m2 in combat configuration not even the modified SH.

And do you know any rules of ECM/BVR engagement?
Here's a few of them;

1. The player with the longer ranging radar has a longer ranging missile to facilitate a first shot.
2. The player with the shorter ranging radar does not have the capability to effectively jam the radar.
3. The victim does not turn tail early, spoiling the missile engagement geometry and getting out of the missile's kinematic No Escape Zone.

Power of a Pulse Doppler Radar is joke before a huge hybrid phased array radar with peak power ratings between 4 and 7 kiloWatts.

Let me ask another question how many ECM/jamming pods a JF-17 can carry??

 

[DARKY]

Santro ripped apart your argument about the Bars jamming the KLJ-7, thus no point of me replying to that post.

Did you even read that post or my previous post?

It useless explaining any thing to you guys isn't it?

 

[DARKY]

Possibly people like notorious eagle/lawfate/santro don't realise that even Chinese are going for TVC nozzles on every new combat plane they are making for future like J-15/J-20 and possibly the trend would continue until somthing remarkable happenes............it not only saves the stress on engines but also provide out standing agility which most of the time breaks missile locks or gets the bird out of engagement zone quickly.

 

[Xeenon]

i think it is a little bit unrealistic at this moment to think about PN acquiring J-11s because of the budgetary constraints and economic scenario, keeping in mind that we are also running short on submarines!

 

[Dazzler]

@DARKY said...

Its Insane how you people claim RCS of 3m2 no 4th/4.5th generation plane has a RCS <3m2 in combat configuration not even the modified SH.


* Trust me pal, in clean config, it does have a tiny RCS, loaded should be around 3 or 4 at best, MKI loaded will glow my cockpit conveniently....

And do you know any rules of ECM/BVR engagement?

* Without going iinto details, yes i do that is why i said the above, depends upon various factors but ECM is usually implied first at extended ranges for obvious reason. Not so at short ranges though...

Here's a few of them;

1. The player with the longer ranging radar has a longer ranging missile to facilitate a first shot.
2. The player with the shorter ranging radar does not have the capability to effectively jam the radar.
3. The victim does not turn tail early, spoiling the missile engagement geometry and getting out of the missile's kinematic No Escape Zone.

* What you guys forget most of the times is the likely fact that MKI will be an aggressor and JFT a defender, this puts the MKI at a back foot as it will have to counter more than just fighters, add SAMS and EW aircraft, AWACS as well, calculate the risks to MKI in this case yourself. PAF will NOT use JFT as an aggressor/ strike because this role will be fulfilled by blk 52s, FC-20s

Power of a Pulse Doppler Radar is joke before a huge hybrid phased array radar with peak power ratings between 4 and 7 kiloWatts.

* How easily you under estimate the power of a pulse doppler just because MKI has a PESA, NOT AESA. Does this mean all of the IAF having PD radars is a joke? The latter enjoys significant advantages over pulse doppler but not the former. Check specs on google for a clearer picture on PESA vs AESA...


Let me ask another question how many ECM/jamming pods a JF-17 can carry??

* Currently as per my info, it has 2, one internal, on vertical tail, one underneath a hardpoint, most likely KG-300G, and ever reliable ALQ-131, both multiband jammers, high powered.....Infact, PLAAF has been using a combo of 2 KG-300G jammers on its JH-7A strike fighters for severe jamming/ ECM environment.....

 

[SQ8]

Possibly people like notorious eagle/lawfate/santro don't realise that even Chinese are going for TVC nozzles on every new combat plane they are making for future like J-15/J-20 and possibly the trend would continue until somthing remarkable happenes............it not only saves the stress on engines but also provide out standing agility which most of the time breaks missile locks or gets the bird out of engagement zone quickly.

What most people dont realize is that with newer missiles approaching terminal maneuverability of 50G+
All that TVC will only add a minor advantage compared to the expense in weight and complexity.
I dare ask..
HOW does adding mutiple actuators, thicker petals, heat protection for surrounding airframe..
save life on the engine???

 

[DARKY]

@DARKY said...

Its Insane how you people claim RCS of 3m2 no 4th/4.5th generation plane has a RCS <3m2 in combat configuration not even the modified SH.


* Trust me pal, in clean config, it does have a tiny RCS, loaded should be around 3 or 4 at best, MKI loaded will glow my cockpit conveniently....

And do you know any rules of ECM/BVR engagement?

* Without going iinto details, yes i do that is why i said the above, depends upon various factors but ECM is usually implied first at extended ranges for obvious reason. Not so at short ranges though...

Here's a few of them;

1. The player with the longer ranging radar has a longer ranging missile to facilitate a first shot.
2. The player with the shorter ranging radar does not have the capability to effectively jam the radar.
3. The victim does not turn tail early, spoiling the missile engagement geometry and getting out of the missile's kinematic No Escape Zone.

* What you guys forget most of the times is the likely fact that MKI will be an aggressor and JFT a defender, this puts the MKI at a back foot as it will have to counter more than just fighters, add SAMS and EW aircraft, AWACS as well, calculate the risks to MKI in this case yourself. PAF will NOT use JFT as an aggressor/ strike because this role will be fulfilled by blk 52s, FC-20s

Power of a Pulse Doppler Radar is joke before a huge hybrid phased array radar with peak power ratings between 4 and 7 kiloWatts.

* How easily you under estimate the power of a pulse doppler just because MKI has a PESA, NOT AESA. Does this mean all of the IAF having PD radars is a joke? The latter enjoys significant advantages over pulse doppler but not the former. Check specs on google for a clearer picture on PESA vs AESA...


Let me ask another question how many ECM/jamming pods a JF-17 can carry??

* Currently as per my info, it has 2, one internal, on vertical tail, one underneath a hardpoint, most likely KG-300G, and ever reliable ALQ-131, both multiband jammers, high powered.....Infact, PLAAF has been using a combo of 2 KG-300G jammers on its JH-7A strike fighters for severe jamming/ ECM environment.....

Well we don't go unarmed in an air combat do we?? Even if you put tons of RAM coatings on JF-17 it would still popup at around 5-7m2 RCS.

2ndly yes the flankers would face a hostile air defense system and that's what they are designed for ''To gain air superiority over opponents airspace''.

Power, higher bandwidth, greater frequencies, aswell as higher frequency hopping rates make PESA better than Pulse Dopplers not to forget that BARS are actually an hybrid version with features of Early American AESA radars like AN/APG-63.

I'll have to do some reading on the pods you mentioned but carrying them would seriously affect combat effectiveness of a smaller plane like JF-17 kinematically.

 

[DARKY]

What most people dont realize is that with newer missiles approaching terminal maneuverability of 50G+
All that TVC will only add a minor advantage compared to the expense in weight and complexity.
I dare ask..
HOW does adding mutiple actuators, thicker petals, heat protection for surrounding airframe..
save life on the engine???

Now there are tons of advantages which come along with TVC nozzled turbofan engine.
Better takeoff and landing,

1. lesser control surfaces,
2. Better altitude climbing rate,
3. Shorter takeoff and landing,
4. lesser stress on control surfaces,
5. enhanced maneuverability,
6. superb control in supersonic flight..........and the list continues.

Currently there aren't any AAM missile doing 50gs but their advent in future would reduce TVCs ability to disengage them during terminal phase kinematically...........but when you talk of future why do you forget that it belongs to STEALTH and SUPERSONIC air combat which would depend a lot on TVC.
TVC nozzel increases lifetime of engine as greater thrust and heat is not required to attain a similar maneuver which would be required with an engine without TVC........but again you see the bars are raised and pilots would use similar thrust to attain even higher maneuverability.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

j-15 is still not mature enough to join PN. A batch of 50 j-11bs aircrafts Specialy Modifieded As Per PN requirment will fullfil The place of Mirages.
Instead of buying Frigates ,PN should go For Destroyer's.

but the problem is $$$$$$

 

[Dazzler]

Well we don't go unarmed in an air combat do we?? Even if you put tons of RAM coatings on JF-17 it would still popup at around 5-7m2 RCS.

2ndly yes the flankers would face a hostile air defense system and that's what they are designed for ''To gain air superiority over opponents airspace''.

Power, higher bandwidth, greater frequencies, aswell as higher frequency hopping rates make PESA better than Pulse Dopplers not to forget that BARS are actually an hybrid version with features of Early American AESA radars like AN/APG-63.

I'll have to do some reading on the pods you mentioned but carrying them would seriously affect combat effectiveness of a smaller plane like JF-17 kinematically.

Now you are getting really boring, some how you are very sure about JFT RCS? Wonder if PAF told you secretly? Everything seems to be in favor of mighty MKI whether it is aggressor or defender? Some hefty measure of logic you have here, biased too. Please do some reading on those pods before wasting the bandwidth next time....

 

[Jon Snow]

What most people dont realize is that with newer missiles approaching terminal maneuverability of 50G+
All that TVC will only add a minor advantage compared to the expense in weight and complexity.
I dare ask..
HOW does adding mutiple actuators, thicker petals, heat protection for surrounding airframe..
save life on the engine???

TVC is not supposed to help the aircraft outmaneuver a missile ( which is near impossible as you said - modern missiles have near 50g limit), tvc helps in increasing maneuverability to about the level needed to break a radar lock. with no lock it doesnt matter which missiles you use