What's new

Pakistan may not buy the Chinese VT-4, but the cheaper Ukraine's T-84M or the Russian T-90S tank

How to reduce prices?

Adam,

There is a difference between trade and strategic cooperation. From your post, I sense what hat are you wearing. But try answering these questions and let's see what you find out.

Pakistan is in need of tanks. Do you recognise - yes or no?
Pakistan doesn't have money to afford, yet the challenge it faces is much bigger - yes or no?
China has weaponry which it can afford to offer at reduced price without taking (due) profits - yes or no?
China is not offering its weaponry and is refusing to bare any financial loss - yes or no?

Is China acting a strategic partner or a mere business man. You decide.

If your answer is business then we can re-visit our mountain high claims and ocean deep claims. We will be neighbours and cooperating business partners but let's stop fooling each other at-least.
 
.
Adam,

There is a difference between trade and strategic cooperation. From your post, I sense what hat are you wearing. But try answering these questions and let's see what you find out.

Pakistan is in need of tanks. Do you recognise - yes or no?
Pakistan doesn't have money to afford, yet the challenge it faces is much bigger - yes or no?
China has weaponry which it can afford to offer at reduced price without taking (due) profits - yes or no?
China is not offering its weaponry and is refusing to bare any financial loss - yes or no?

Is China acting a strategic partner or a mere business man. You decide.

If your answer is business then we can re-visit our mountain high claims and ocean deep claims. We will be neighbours and cooperating business partners but let's stop fooling each other at-least.
For a Pakistani who live in Australia,i have nothing to argue with you.I am chinese and i live in China.

I contribute to My country not Americain minion Australia.

Norinco the company has to make back its costs, pay for workers, overhead, down stream suppliers, R&D, etc. Maybe they need to work on cutting costs but they need to offer a price to test the market. Thailand ordered 28 VT-4 for $150 million and another 10 for $58 million. They have limited production capacity for this model so they will likely take the highest bidder to quickly cover costs and build up capacity. In the situation that they cannot find a customer after they have space in their booking, then they might lower prices or make it attractive through other means. If Norinco doesn't make a profit or at least their costs, their suppliers and workers won't give them components and work, if unprofitably is sustained the company goes under. No money means no activity. They don't go into a deal or demonstration thinking about political considerations between Pakistan and China (maybe it is better if they do as a sales strategy?), it is a publicly listed company. Currently Norinco is using export markets to improve its product line, much work is needed to be done.

On the other hand if Pakistan thinks a particular defense product from China is desirable but pricing is out of range then maybe an arrangement can be made with the government of China to subsidize costs. There is a process to go about this.

As for bases, just putting it in context, the Americans are subsidized by their allies for overseas basing. Japan pays $2 billion, South Korea pays $800 million, and NATO pays $2.5 billion every year to the US for covering basing costs.

"The United States’ European allies, Burns said, "pay us $2.5 billion a year to keep our forces there."
https://www.politifact.com/punditfa...opean-allies-pay-us-25-billion-yearly-keep-t/


"Japan has agreed to pay as much as $12 billion to build a new U.S. base on Okinawa for thousands of Marines now at the U.S. installation in the town of Futenma. "

"South Korea also is funding most of a $10.8-billion construction project that will allow U.S. troops to move from bases near Seoul and the Demilitarized Zone along the border with North Korea to new installations farther south."
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-trump-allies-20160930-snap-story.html

Kuwait, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia also pay the majority of American basing costs. The Gulf war was largely paid by the Arab Gulf nations.

"The report, released at a central bankers' meeting in the United Arab Emirates, said that in addition, the governments of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the gulf emirates made $84 billion in direct payments to the United States, Britain and France for military expenses. Officials said payments to Egypt and Syria, who were also members of the coalition opposing Iraq, may have totaled $3 billion to $5 billion.

Direct logistical support for the 600,000 American and allied troops in Saudi Arabia between August 1990 and March 1991, plus the rush to build military airstrips and camps, cost another $51 billion, which was paid largely by Saudi Arabia and Kuwait."

https://www.nytimes.com/1992/09/08/world/gulf-war-s-cost-to-arabs-estimated-at-620-billion.html


US and Russia also have these type of restrictions to prevent leaking of sensitive information. Some exports products have purposely limited capabilities. American export M1 Abrams tanks lack depleted uranium armor. It would be nice if China could one day export Type 99A series to Pakistan. Likely by then China would be equipping 4th generation tanks.
This graphican is not woth to argue with.
He is an australian not pakistani.For him, Apperently,China need give weapons free of charge to Pakistan,otherwise, China is no good but india is.

Adam,

There is a difference between trade and strategic cooperation. From your post, I sense what hat are you wearing. But try answering these questions and let's see what you find out.

Pakistan is in need of tanks. Do you recognise - yes or no?
Pakistan doesn't have money to afford, yet the challenge it faces is much bigger - yes or no?
China has weaponry which it can afford to offer at reduced price without taking (due) profits - yes or no?
China is not offering its weaponry and is refusing to bare any financial loss - yes or no?

Is China acting a strategic partner or a mere business man. You decide.

If your answer is business then we can re-visit our mountain high claims and ocean deep claims. We will be neighbours and cooperating business partners but let's stop fooling each other at-least.
So if China does not help Pakistan with Nuclear submarine, Pakistan is no ally to China.
It sounds like a vampire-like Albania. In 1978, China decided to terminate any assistance to Albania. Why, because it only knows the request, it does not know the return.

China and Pakistan have become alliances because we have a common enemy, India, not because of how much money and goods China gives to Pakistan. If you don't know this, then Pakistan is no different from other countries for China.

Finally and end of story with you,neither you and me will do any influence on China or Pak gov policies.

If you go like North korea who does not respect China core interests,that could be your Pakistan free choices,North korea asked us China to give them free of charge J10 jet fighters,we said no and no!
And have you forgotten the military trade lesson? Pakistan bought the US F16 and got what: the money paid and the plane not shipped.

And once again, VT-4 tanks priced at 5.8 millions usd each!

China wants to establish a military base in Gwadar and gives Pakistan 25 million U.S. dollars a year. The Pakistani government has rejected China’s request. This is what you call China-Pakistan friendship.

Concerning the military base, I feel that China and Djibouti have a better relationship.
 
. .
This graphican is not woth to argue with.
He is an australian not pakistani.For him, Apperently,China need give weapons free of charge to Pakistan,otherwise, China is no good but india is.
I'm not trying to argue with anybody and not interested in personal disputes or have any malicious intentions. The purpose is to provide better understanding for readers and ourselves. Just helping to differentiate motivations between a corporations and governments, and how nations interact with each other.

One can't just go to an independently owned store in a mall and say, "give me free stuff or a big discount because I'm friends with the mall owner" and then go to your friend to say, "you are not a good friend because the store owner in your mall won't give me a discount for the thing I need". The store owner has to make a living, pay his staff, rent, and cover the cost of goods he is selling. The store owner is probably thinking "I am paying the mall owner rent every month and now he wants me to give free stuff to his friend at my expense?". The right way would be to request funds from your friend the mall owner and then go buy goods from the store. It isn't as simple as everything from China is the same thing and the same organization.

We shouldn't get emotional and should stay grounded.
 
Last edited:
. .
It is rumored that because of the higher price, Pakistan may not buy the Chinese VT-4, but the cheaper Ukraine's T-84M tank or the Russian T-90S tank.


5e700000012b405c2289


VT-4 tank exported to Thailand

As the Chinese-made VT-4 adopts internationally advanced technology and equipment, the price is relatively high. It is believed that Pakistan will not purchase the Chinese VT-4, but choose the cheaper U-T-84M tank and the Russian T-90S tank. Due to the Ukrainian civil war, the delivery capacity of the Ukrainian tank factory is questionable, so Pakistan may eventually choose the cheaper Russian T-90S tank.
5b590002309fb80f67ed
5b59000230a0d467669e

The VT-4 tank hoisted to land after arriving at the port of Thailand

5b5a00021e764917ca98


VT-4 tank road transport

5b5a00021e7c90811624


VT-4 tank arriving at the Thai military destination

5b5b0001fa0acdc1c553


5b5c00019cd3e432e926
VT-4 tank internal picture


VT-4 tanks and Pakistani Khalid tanks have many shared parts. According to common sense, Pakistan should choose VT-4 tanks. However, considering the current financial situation in Pakistan, it is understandable to choose cheap tanks.

VT-4 failed in trails, price is no issue between China and Pakistan, Pakistan want top line product from China not some low grade export version which is available for whole world, you don't treat your strategic partner and closest ally like others.
 
. . .
VT-4 is said to have passed the test.

Please post some reference in support, Pakistan have developed local BMS and NCW solution allowing integration of eastern and western tech, so VT-4 does not offer much in that, Pakistan is building ATLAY MBT parts too, so any downgraded export version will find it difficult to pass when better options are available, did China sent VT-4 again after rectifying its problems?
 
.
Why is price a concern for China here? Is making money the only National goal left? Pakistan is freaking giving you its land and length of resources so our friend China be strategically safe. Can china not reduce the price of a defence product Pakistan needs and when it knows Pakistan is short of cash?

Pakistan is a friend when China benefits and not so much when money comes in the way?
This is a question of sovereignty, If I take my friend's stuff for free, I will try to give back more, Unless you do not cherish this friendship. final, we may no longer be friends, Because sooner or later, they will exceed each other's ability. The same is true among nations.
also, Higher prices represent higher maintenance costs.
 
.
For a Pakistani who live in Australia,i have nothing to argue with you.I am chinese and i live in China.

I contribute to My country not Americain minion Australia.


This graphican is not woth to argue with.
He is an australian not pakistani.For him, Apperently,China need give weapons free of charge to Pakistan,otherwise, China is no good but india is.


So if China does not help Pakistan with Nuclear submarine, Pakistan is no ally to China.
It sounds like a vampire-like Albania. In 1978, China decided to terminate any assistance to Albania. Why, because it only knows the request, it does not know the return.

China and Pakistan have become alliances because we have a common enemy, India, not because of how much money and goods China gives to Pakistan. If you don't know this, then Pakistan is no different from other countries for China.

Finally and end of story with you,neither you and me will do any influence on China or Pak gov policies.

If you go like North korea who does not respect China core interests,that could be your Pakistan free choices,North korea asked us China to give them free of charge J10 jet fighters,we said no and no!
And have you forgotten the military trade lesson? Pakistan bought the US F16 and got what: the money paid and the plane not shipped.

And once again, VT-4 tanks priced at 5.8 millions usd each!

China wants to establish a military base in Gwadar and gives Pakistan 25 million U.S. dollars a year. The Pakistani government has rejected China’s request. This is what you call China-Pakistan friendship.

Concerning the military base, I feel that China and Djibouti have a better relationship.

Fair enough, a Pakistani who lives in Australia and is fighting for Pakistan should be seen Australian because he is living there. And his logical questions should be turn down because of the same reason. So if my latitudinal and longitudinal coordinates change to Islamabad in 12 hours from now then do you think these questions will become worth answering all over again?

Get this message in the simplest possible words. If Pakistan is an ally, money will not stop you from selling something. You cannot have two centres of gravity and two targets to focus. Either you focus money or you focus alliance. Let me spin this argument to give you an idea, if China needed something and China was short of cash for that, Pakistan would have given it without a second thought. This is the level of connection and devotion we feel towards China - and perhaps expect it back.

If Pakistan is an ally, money will not stop you from selling us anything we need.
 
Last edited:
. . .
As the Chinese-made VT-4 adopts internationally advanced technology and equipment, the price is relatively high.

Yea sure, learn a few basic things about tanks before start calling them "advance". Stop talking nonsense please. Even a poor country like Ukraine has better tank technology than China.
 
. .

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom