Pakistan may not buy the Chinese VT-4, but the cheaper Ukraine's T-84M or the Russian T-90S tank

[LKJ86]

VT-4

 

[Fawadqasim1]

A friend isn't someone you can expect to give presents to you.

This is a company making business in another country.

You are absolutely right bro but companies do give extra discount to their regular and reliable customers

 

[lcloo]

I think price of VT-4 tank is not really expensive if those figures in Wikipedia are used as a reference. ( I understand Wikipedia is not the best reference but the weights and price tags should not be far off.)

A-1 Abraham tanks (65 tons + gas turbine engine) is estimated at US$9 million (inflation adjusted 2018 price)
VT-4 tanks (52 tons) US$5.8 million (2016 prices paid by Thailand)
Type 90-MS tanks (46 tons) US$ 4.5 million
MBT-2000 (Al-Khalid) (46 tons) US$4.7 million to US$5.8 million.
M-84 Oplot tank (46 tons) US$4.1 million (2011 price paid by Thailand).

Prices of tanks sold to different countries have different prices depending on the terms of contract which may include spares, training, maintenance supports etc., as well as additional components as per customer's requirement.

Many of the postings here are based on personal assumptions, the key one is the price of VT-4 and whether China should sell it below market price. I believe (1) the market price of VT-4 is not expensive as it has many advance electronic stuff for offence and defence, and (2) Do we really have a confirmed price tag of VT-4 offered by China to Pakistan? ( Which I don't think so).

The fact that Thailand took delivery of the first 28 tanks in 2017, and thereafter place a further order of 10 tanks shows that they must have been quite satisfied with its performance.

The Thai tank drivers commented that driving a VT-4 is easy like driving a car instead of a tank, which incidentally the Russian drivers gave the same comment when they drive Chinese Type 04 amphibious tank during Army Game 2018.

 

[LKJ86]

You are absolutely right bro but companies do give extra discount to their regular and reliable customers

To most of Pakistani members here, Turkey is the best friend of Pakistan.
Does Turkey give free T-129 to Pakistan?

 

[Fawadqasim1]

They will not sell the whole techs of T-84M,it is almost the only legacy inherited from Soviet Union empire,if they do ,they will perish.

Yes but they will get royalty on each and every tank that we manufacture. They are getting almost nothing now

 

[LKJ86]

I think price of VT-4 tank is not really expensive if those figures in Wikipedia are used as a reference. ( I understand Wikipedia is not the best reference but the weights and price tags should not be far off.)

A-1 Abraham tanks (65 tons + gas turbine engine) is estimated at US$9 million (inflation adjusted 2018 price)
VT-4 tanks (52 tons) US$5.8 million (2016 prices paid by Thailand)
Type 90-MS tanks (46 tons) US$ 4.5 million
MBT-2000 (Al-Khalid) (46 tons) US$4.7 million to US$5.8 million.
M-84 Oplot tank (46 tons) US$4.1 million (2011 price paid by Thailand).

Prices of tanks sold to different countries have different prices depending on the terms of contract which may include spares, training, maintenance supports etc., as well as additional components as per customer's requirement.

Many of the postings here are based on personal assumptions, the key one is the price of VT-4 and whether China should sell it below market price. I believe (1) the market price of VT-4 is not expensive as it has many advance electronic stuff for offence and defence, and (2) Do we really have a confirmed price tag of VT-4 offered by China to Pakistan? ( Which I don't think so).

The fact that Thailand took delivery of the first 28 tanks in 2017, and thereafter place a further order of 10 tanks shows that they must have been quite satisfied with its performance.

The price is not the big issue to PA.
What Pakistan wants is not just the tank itself. It wants the upgrading of its tank industry.

 

[lcloo]

The price is not the big issue to PA.
What Pakistan wants is not just the tank itself. It wants the upgrading of its tank industry.

I believe an agreement similar to Al-Khalid (MBT-2000) tanks should not be a big problem.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

To most of Pakistani members here, Turkey is the best friend of Pakistan.
Does Turkey give free T-129 to Pakistan?

As i have said before don't guage anything by the attitude of the members of this forum visit pakistan Conduct your own survey anywhere in Pakistan and its a challenge. The first name you will come up with will be china. Do it, you will see the results. And no one is talking about getting tanks for free we are talking about a discount.
If bro you understand the difference.

 

[LKJ86]

I believe an agreement similar to Al-Khalid (MBT-2000) tanks should not be a big problem.

You should know that VT-4, ZTZ-99A , and ZTZ-96B all use 150HB series engines. So, the engine is very sensitive.

 

[Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA]

A friend isn't someone you can expect to give presents to you.

This is a company making business in another country.

yes China north industries company if i am not wrong.

 

[HannibalBarca]

The estimated price of the deal was $1.5 billion for 30 helicopters from Turkey, so $50 million each. That could buy about 260 VT-4 tanks, possibility more due to scale of purchase. Relatively speaking, Pakistan has a decently funded military. Price shouldn't be an issue.

Norinco just needs constant improvement from Pakistan's feedback.

T-129 contract isn't a Direct sell but some lvl of ToT and Local Manufacturing/Assembly. And Local Integration at some point.
Therefore the price tag isn't A one/pcs price tag.

And we can't compare the sell of an Attack Heli and a Tank... One got limited sellers while the other don't and One got Advanced tech that is difficult to manufacture while the other don't... and so on.

As for the all VT-4 Price tag, I also agree that is a bit too much compared to other limited Tanks (in Economy of scale) available on the market and Even more when you take into account Norinco second Tank, the T-99 at under the 4Mil$ Price tag...
And Foreign sys isn't an excuse for 6Mil$ price... The Incoming Altay from Turkey, with more advanced sys, is in that 6-7Mil$ range( at least according to some).

I believe Norinco move is to feel the Market... Not really selling at all cost... They could have made the price lower and lower their benefits, and/or increase their other Equipment sells around the Tank , Like what many CN brands are doing aka Xiaomi per exemple... and therefore Flooding the market...

As for Subsys...They could have put some older Local version in it and drop the price under 3-4Mil$...They would have sold it pretty well, mostly in Africa or South America... and yet they didn't... Money isn't really a problem for them... I still believe they want to "impose" some sort of a new image... of what is sold by CN Def companies...

It's the same for Other equipment entirely made in CN and yet being not cheap at export... Where it's almost in the same Price range as Western ones...

 

[Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA]

T-129 contract isn't a Direct sell but some lvl of ToT and Local Manufacturing/Assembly. And Local Integration at some point.
Therefore the price tag isn't A one/pcs price tag.

And we can't compare the sell of an Attack Heli and a Tank... One got limited sellers while the other don't and One got Advanced tech that is difficult to manufacture while the other don't... and so on.

As for the all VT-4 Price tag, I also agree that is a bit too much compared to other limited Tanks (in Economy of scale) available on the market and Even more when you take into account Norinco second Tank, the T-99 at under the 4Mil$ Price tag...
And Foreign sys isn't an excuse for 6Mil$ price... The Incoming Altay from Turkey, with more advanced sys, is in that 6-7Mil$ range( at least according to some).

I believe Norinco move is to feel the Market... Not really selling at all cost... They could have made the price lower and lower their benefits, and/or increase their other Equipment sells around the Tank , Like what many CN brands are doing aka Xiaomi per exemple... and therefore Flooding the market...

As for Subsys...They could have put some older Local version in it and drop the price under 3-4Mil$...They would have sold it pretty well, mostly in Africa or South America... and yet they didn't... Money isn't really a problem for them... I still believe they want to "impose" some sort of a new image... of what is sold by CN Def companies...

It's the same for Other equipment entirely made in CN and yet being not cheap at export... Where it's almost in the same Price range as Western ones...

Thailand has purchased 49 units VT-4 wiht 5.8 millions USD each ，where you get the feel the market nonsense?
VT-4 5.8 millions USD each take or leave it！

 

[Signalian]

Pakistan should not just be looking for MBT but also for the supporting weapons like SP Artillery and SP Air Defence systems to move along with that MBT. The APC or IFV should also be looked into which could match its speed with the MBT.

Mobility is 99% warfare of armored forces, a stationary armored vehicle is a pill box, an easy target. If an MBt has to lead offensives,it should be able to travel 100's of km's in any terrain without breaking down. This means engine, tracks, road wheels, stabilization, logistics support and the reliability of all these comes foremost for selection of MBT. The T-59's were slow, but reliable, which is why a huge number was inducted. They could go anywhere in Pakistani and Indian terrain.

 

[Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA]

You can always buy T90S upgraded from russian stocked reserve T90,with 2.9 millions USd just like VIetnam did years ago.

Of course,as China's ally an discounted price can offer to Paksitan under China gov pressure imposed to Norinco,but there are limits,VT-4 is advanced tanks with high costs,like huawei P20 Pro,you can not ask a 900 USD cellphone to reduce its price to 500 USD,maybe 850 USD or 780 USd, and that is it.
But if China gov like to donnate 100 millions to Pakistan as aid and Pakistan use this aid to buy VT-4 or other Chinese weapons in reasonbale price,i would be very ok with it.

There is no tanks can run at 100kmph,VT-4 is at 70 km/h (43 mph) at maximum.
You are day dreaming dude!

Pakistan should not just be looking for MBT but also for the supporting weapons like SP Artillery and SP Air Defence systems to move along with that MBT. The APC or IFV should also be looked into which could match its speed with the MBT.

Mobility is 99% warfare of armored forces, a stationary armored vehicle is a pill box, an easy target. If an MBt has to lead offensives,it should be able to travel 100's of km's in any terrain without breaking down. This means engine, tracks, road wheels, stabilization, logistics support and the reliability of all these comes foremost for selection of MBT. The T-59's were slow, but reliable, which is why a huge number was inducted. They could go anywhere in Pakistani and Indian terrain.

 

[帅的一匹]

To most of Pakistani members here, Turkey is the best friend of Pakistan.
Does Turkey give free T-129 to Pakistan?

actually there.are Turkey members.moaning.that the price tagged by Erdogan for T129 is not able to recover its R&D cost, cause lots of TOT included.
but since China and Turkey is Pakistan ally, money always comes second.

As i have said before don't guage anything by the attitude of the members of this forum visit pakistan Conduct your own survey anywhere in Pakistan and its a challenge. The first name you will come up with will be china. Do it, you will see the results. And no one is talking about getting tanks for free we are talking about a discount.
If bro you understand the difference.

Does Oplot M win the bid or not?