Pakistan may not buy the Chinese VT-4, but the cheaper Ukraine's T-84M or the Russian T-90S tank

[aliaselin]

You should know that VT-4, ZTZ-99A , and ZTZ-96B all use 150HB series engines. So, the engine is very sensitive.
View attachment 497452

May not be that sensitive as 132HB has been serviced in the army

 

[Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA]

actually there.are Turkey members.moaning.that the price tagged by Erdogan for T129 is not able to recover its R&D cost, cause lots of TOT included.
but since China and Turkey is Pakistan ally, money always comes second.


Does Oplot M win the bid or not?

China is Pakistan‘s ally,not Turkey's who does not respect China in Xinjiang matters!

 

[帅的一匹]

China is Pakistan‘s ally,not Turkey's who does not respect China in Xinjiang matters!

put the glitch aside with Turkey in Uygher problem, now the relarionship is improving.
Pakistan is.getting lots of goodies from Turkey.

 

[HannibalBarca]

put the glitch aside with Turkey in Uygher problem, now the relarionship is improving.
Pakistan is.getting lots of goodies from Turkey.

at Affordable price and interesting advantages aka Very Deep ToT...

 

[royalharris]

It is just the bussiness between Norinco and PA
Nothing about national level

Norinco is a enterprise, enterprise run its business according to its vision mission and objective, Government can’t and shouldn’t interfere enterprise’s bussiness activity and decision only if they obey the law

National level, Chinese government help Pakistan with methods like loans, students visa,good investment policy towards Pakistan and so on

 

[HannibalBarca]

It is just the bussiness between Norinco and PA
Nothing about national level

Norinco is a enterprise, enterprise run its business according to its vision mission and objective, Government can’t and shouldn’t interfere enterprise’s bussiness activity and decision only if they obey the law

National level, Chinese government help Pakistan with methods like loans, students visa,good investment policy towards Pakistan and so on

No Def companies on CN soil can make any sell without CN gov approval...
Norinco will make the cut/sacrifice toward X, if the Gov ask...

If Western companies can... Automatically CN will...

 

[royalharris]

No Def companies on CN soil can make any sell without CN gov approval...
Norinco will make the cut/sacrifice toward X, if the Gov ask...

Government can allow the permission
But can’t decide the price, price is enterprise business

Complex social economic system run the country,especially the big country

Both government and enterprise have themselves line

It is just the free choice between Norinco and PA,wish both of them make the right decision

 

[帅的一匹]

Government can allow the permission
But can’t decide the price, price is enterprise business

Complex social economic system run the country,especially the big country

Both government and enterprise have themselves line

It is just the free choice between Norinco and PA

the competition system will bring everything in order.

 

[Desert Fox]

For a Pakistani who live in Australia,i have nothing to argue with you.I am chinese and i live in China.

I contribute to My country not Americain minion Australia.


This graphican is not woth to argue with.
He is an australian not pakistani.For him, Apperently,China need give weapons free of charge to Pakistan,otherwise, China is no good but india is.


So if China does not help Pakistan with Nuclear submarine, Pakistan is no ally to China.
It sounds like a vampire-like Albania. In 1978, China decided to terminate any assistance to Albania. Why, because it only knows the request, it does not know the return.

China and Pakistan have become alliances because we have a common enemy, India, not because of how much money and goods China gives to Pakistan. If you don't know this, then Pakistan is no different from other countries for China.

Finally and end of story with you,neither you and me will do any influence on China or Pak gov policies.

If you go like North korea who does not respect China core interests,that could be your Pakistan free choices,North korea asked us China to give them free of charge J10 jet fighters,we said no and no!
And have you forgotten the military trade lesson? Pakistan bought the US F16 and got what: the money paid and the plane not shipped.

And once again, VT-4 tanks priced at 5.8 millions usd each!

China wants to establish a military base in Gwadar and gives Pakistan 25 million U.S. dollars a year. The Pakistani government has rejected China’s request. This is what you call China-Pakistan friendship.

Concerning the military base, I feel that China and Djibouti have a better relationship.

Unfortunately what many of my countrymen fail to understand is that there are no free lunches. Everything comes at a price.

This "higher than mountains, deeper than oceans, sweeter than honey" that many Pakistanis have blindly accepted as some divine phrase that will summon free weapons and economic aid from China is in fact just some sentimental propaganda by the political leadership of both countries, though the Chinese people have not been so gullible.

In reality China is getting ALLOT from Pakistan and in return giving not the equivalent amount, and this doesn't make Chinese evil or bad, it just shows that they are very smart and actually look out for the interests of the Chinese nation. Chinese get to dump their mass produced cheap goods into Pakistani markets and thus destroy Pakistan's native industries, Chinese get access to major Pakistani transportation infrastructure like roads, railroads, ports, etc...

Pakistani leaders on the other hand have done a fine job plundering their own country and then selling it to the highest bidder, whether to America, Saudi or now China.

But there are no free lunches. Chinese offered us a tank at a certain price and we can't afford them, end of story. Maybe we need to start putting people into office who will actually negotiate better deals for Pakistan? And if democracy has failed to give Pakistan competent and patriotic leaders then maybe we need to try a different form of government that is actually based on merit and not on the votes of the easily manipulateable masses?

@Psychic @LeGenD @Taimur Khurram @Metanoia @PakSword

Let me spin this argument to give you an idea, if China needed something and China was short of cash for that, Pakistan would have given it without a second thought. This is the level of connection and devotion we feel towards China - and perhaps expect it back.

And this is what we did for the Americans and the Saudis, we gave more than they were willing to reciprocate and thus the conclusions we have all seen with regards to those "allies" of ours.

Instead of becoming sentimental we need to start approaching these relations from a realistic and practical standpoint.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Unfortunately what many of my countrymen fail to understand is that there are no free lunches. Everything comes at a price.

This "higher than mountains, deeper than oceans, sweeter than honey" that many Pakistanis have blindly accepted as some divine phrase that will summon free weapons and economic aid from China is in fact just some sentimental propaganda by the political leadership of both countries, though the Chinese people have not been so gullible.

In reality China is getting ALLOT from Pakistan and in return giving not the equivalent amount, and this doesn't make Chinese evil or bad, it just shows that they are very smart and actually look out for the interests of the Chinese nation. Chinese get to dump their mass produced cheap goods into Pakistani markets and thus destroy Pakistan's native industries, Chinese get access to major Pakistani transportation infrastructure like roads, railroads, ports, etc...

Pakistani leaders on the other hand have done a fine job plundering their own country and then selling it to the highest bidder, whether to America, Saudi or now China.

But there are no free lunches. Chinese offered us a tank at a certain price and we can't afford them, end of story. Maybe we need to start putting people into office who will actually negotiate better deals for Pakistan? And if democracy has failed to give Pakistan competent and patriotic leaders then maybe we need to try a different form of government that is actually based on merit and not on the votes of the easily manipulateable masses?

@Psychic @LeGenD @Taimur Khurram @Metanoia @PakSword

Good points, bhai.

In this day and age everything is transactional, meaning that if you want something, you have to give something in return.

We as Pakistanis, need to look out for our interests.

 

[Desert Fox]

Good points, bhai.

In this day and age everything is transactional, meaning that if you want something, you have to give something in return.

We as Pakistanis, need to look out for our interets.

Yes, we do and we should keep in mind that no one wants a burdensome ally who will weigh them down. We can form alliances based on mutual interests from a practical and realistic standpoint and not from the standpoint of blind sentimentality, emotional and romanticism because that is not how it works in real life and we lose respect this way.

 

[royalharris]

Things are run by all kinds of rules, even the strong man should do things within the rules

Free lunch such rule-broken behaviors provide convenient, it can be used in emergency time, but can’t be taken as granted and used as rountine, it brings both damages in the long run

 

[MultaniGuy]

Yes, we do and we should keep in mind that no one wants a burdensome ally who will weigh them down. We can form alliances based on mutual interests from a practical and realistic standpoint and not from the standpoint of blind sentimentality, emotional and romanticism because that is not how it works in real life and we lose respect this way.

Exactly we should be realistic.

It's always a two way street.

 

[帅的一匹]

i think China goverment will not push something that Pakistan cant afford.
business is.business, Pakistan is the one who makes decision.
i respect their decision, thats how friendship means.

Things are run by all kinds of rules, even the strong man should do things within the rules

Free lunch, discount prices and such behaviors provide convenient, but brings both damages in the long run

well said.

 

[MultaniGuy]

I think Pakistan should get the Ukrainian Oplot and get TOT, if the VT-4 is too expensive.

Then with Oplot TOT technology and with Al Khalid technology, Pakistan should create its own indigenous variant of tanks.