Pakistan has been offered the Chinese 4th generation J-11 (SU27)

[muse]

Sorry for being dense on this issue of "deep strike" - I really cannot understand the emphasis on this kind of mission - any conflict is likely to be very intense and Pakistan have BM systems for these, isn't this so? In the meantime, if there is any kind of asymtery between the opposing elements it in the naval and naval air component, isn't this so? There is no possiblity of matching naval surface platforms, Pakistan can introduce a positive asymetry of it's own by focusing on naval air platforms that allow it the capablity to accrue a advantage to Pakistan, or at least a greater cost to an adversary and introduce the element of a serious risk posed by Pak naval air in the caculations of an adversary.

 

[Owais]

Pakistan already has some mig-29 and probably some su27 in Pakistani inventory for testing/training purpose.

there was an article published in dawn few years ago that PAF have mig29 (not su27) given by china but that news was a rumor because china have 0 mig29 .

 

[T-Rex]

They were never selling J10 yet PAF seems to be the first export... They were never building JF17 yet...

It is like LCA is superduper top tech yet we all know it is never going to be a real fighterjet but a pussywagon...

So there is a lot of difference what you think and what is truth. Are you sure that you come from BD?

I'm not gpoing to comment on the source of funds for the J-11s as I've already guessed it, but what is strange is that China had offered the J-11 to Pakistan and Paksitan could not respond positively to that offer. what could be the reason for that ? as far as I know Pakistan would be only too glad to have the J-11 in its inventory. This needs to be cleared before anyone is to believe that Pakistan was indeed offered the J-11.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Hi..

Sorry to popup in discussions...but instead of wasting money on J-11 even if its available why not invest in a JF-17??. don't tell me we can't make a bigger version of JF-17? like the b l u nder we did making a small one should have invested 100 million dollars more in this project and come up with a F-16 sized version of JF-17. too late now. i guess so... how much would it cost? 5-6 million dollars more on each one? better than spending 45 million on J-11

 

[Quwa]

Hi..

Sorry to popup in discussions...but instead of wasting money on J-11 even if its available why not invest in a JF-17??. don't tell me we can't make a bigger version of JF-17? like the b l u nder we did making a small one should have invested 100 million dollars more in this project and come up with a F-16 sized version of JF-17. too late now. i guess so... how much would it cost? 5-6 million dollars more on each one? better than spending 45 million on J-11

It would be a pointless investment...any interest in J-11B would stem from the current requirement of a long-range fighter with high payload. To put money into developing a larger JF-17 will consume time and would require time that we may not have. Also note that the J-11B can house a stronger radar, more ECM/EW systems and of course go further...we might use it to complement the FC-20s in far-reaching operations.

If we are to further invest in JF-17, then I suggest embarking on a project similar to the Gripen NG. Firstly make some airframe improvements to lighten the airframe through use of composites. Secondly, work towards decreasing RCS (making it stealthier) by using squarer intakes, more composites in airframe, perhaps an overall less 'rounder' airframe similar to Gripen NG. Thirdly we could use newer concepts such as blended wing designs...if we have a stronger engine (like the 9500kgf engine revealed at Zuhai), we may be able to put in a near bubbly canopy, etc.

 

[batmannow]

It would be a pointless investment...any interest in J-11B would stem from the current requirement of a long-range fighter with high payload. To put money into developing a larger JF-17 will consume time and would require time that we may not have. Also note that the J-11B can house a stronger radar, more ECM/EW systems and of course go further...we might use it to complement the FC-20s in far-reaching operations.

If we are to further invest in JF-17, then I suggest embarking on a project similar to the Gripen NG. Firstly make some airframe improvements to lighten the airframe through use of composites. Secondly, work towards decreasing RCS (making it stealthier) by using squarer intakes, more composites in airframe, perhaps an overall less 'rounder' airframe similar to Gripen NG. Thirdly we could use newer concepts such as blended wing designs...if we have a stronger engine (like the 9500kgf engine revealed at Zuhai), we may be able to put in a near bubbly canopy, etc.

Dear Mark Sien;sir
really, great post, and very deep thinking!
i think you realy deserved to be a part of THINK TANK.
best of luck.

 

[Munir]

If size and RCS does matter then it is much more efficient to go for smaller planes and force multipliers then big multiple engined planes. Exactly that you see in PAF. JF17, J10 and block 52 are all light fighterjets. They add tankers and Awacs. A MKI can never get the same power or range if you have a tanker and awacs on your side. And you will see the MKI much earlier then it will see you. The need of bigger plane for bigger ordnance is less truth at the moment. One goes for smart weapons in small sizes... Do you still hear anything about the daisy cutter? Nopes, it is to expensive and risky. They rather go for small diameter bombs and intellegent tracking.

I think the Indians have not calculated the maintenance and total cost headache when going for MKI...

 

[batmannow]

If size and RCS does matter then it is much more efficient to go for smaller planes and force multipliers then big multiple engined planes. Exactly that you see in PAF. JF17, J10 and block 52 are all light fighterjets. They add tankers and Awacs. A MKI can never get the same power or range if you have a tanker and awacs on your side. And you will see the MKI much earlier then it will see you. The need of bigger plane for bigger ordnance is less truth at the moment. One goes for smart weapons in small sizes... Do you still hear anything about the daisy cutter? Nopes, it is to expensive and risky. They rather go for small diameter bombs and intellegent tracking.

I think the Indians have not calculated the maintenance and total cost headache when going for MKI...

Dear Munir; sir
i dont think, that indians had miscalculated the maintenance & the cost issues! the had a very progressive economy, i guss they can afford more thn this!
JF17, J10 and block 52?
JF-17
a great bird, but still in the process of evolution!

J10 and block 52
not a part, of paf inventory but yes we have plans, block 52 ! really not reallistic, j-10s most possible thing in near future.

lets put in this way! if we cant get block -52s , thn j-11s are the best available plateforms?
right!

 

[bc040400065]

Pakistan doesnot even have a decent aircraft for point defence against BVR equipped IAF let alone a capable strike group.

It is no longer the man behind the machine, but machines supporting other machines. Even IAF is a moderate airforce though we are the fourth largest.

What makes an airforce powerful (or in other words "one of the best") is based on how much intelligence can be collected and used effectively.

Thats where AWACs, satellites, "dedicated jamming aircraft"(like EA6 and EA18G) come into play. First shot, First kill is the mantra. Unfortunately, IAF still lacks this capability and so does the PAF.

PAF still lacks BVR capability. Plus the old F-16s are still sitting in their hangars requiring upgrades which have no BVR capability either. the JF-17s have still not been integrated with the SD-10 for production.


Getting back to the topic,
Pak PM told parliament that there will be no more hike in defence expenditure for sometime. How will that affect PAF's ability to induct more fighters that includes JF-17, J-10 and the flanker clones???[plus the F-16s which will obvioulsy get first priority]

Even if the fighters are bought....wont maintaining be a problem. Life cycle costs are as high as the fighter costs..sometimes higher.

If the J-11s are procured, which trainers will be purchased for training pilots.

JF17 is BVR capable and can carry SD10 ... i know it will sadden u but its reality.

 

[SBD-3]

I think 2 squadron of F11-B as bombing role (to replace A-5) will be enough for PAF

why does every one end up with 2 sqauderns????.....

 

[Super Falcon]

i dont bellieve that pakistan is looking to get J 11 and noone from pakistan made any comments on it our senate allowed to buy J 10 not J 11 and our ex air chief also mentioned that paf is interested in J 10 not J 11 so stop living in dreams in some mediaker articles

 

[bc040400065]

pakistan does not need J11. and as per now PAF only plans to develop and deploy JF17 and some 100 odd J10b or soem future variants of J10 till 2025. even some news report sugest PAF looking for 150 J10 so i think paf has no interest in buying these jets even if they would i think they should see a more advance version to come up or may be the speculated Super 10 with twin engines but same design features of the current J10, this would be much better as both will feature same parts and easy maintenance.

 

[shanixee]

i have mentioned this earlier and again repeating it...my class fellow is now squadren leader in Paf....when i met him and discussing diffrent things he did mentioned that PAF will have something like su30 but after 2015....he mentioned in a very hidden way as if dont wanna share anything...i did not further asked him as he might not want to share it....but i got an idea that PAF is inerested in something similar to su30 which might be J11.....

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

i have mentioned this earlier and again repeating it...my class fellow is now squadren leader in Paf....when i met him and discussing diffrent things he did mentioned that PAF will have something like su30 but after 2015....he mentioned in a very hidden way as if dont wanna share anything...i did not further asked him as he might not want to share it....but i got an idea that PAF is inerested in something similar to su30 which might be J11.....

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that can only be J11

 

[Luftwaffe]

and the price tag of J-11B after 2015 considering new technologies will be introduced to it new AESA radar and vice versa pretty well the price tag would go to $50M+