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Pakistan has 2 Choices: Secularism or Death

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pakistan does not give equal rights to minorities..a non-muslim can not become prime minister or president of your nation as per your constitution.

Pakistan is an Islamic Republic country, hence it does provide equal right to the minorities, thats point one.

Your asking of a non-muslim/KAFIR to be our Prime Minister/President is like asking, Iran and Saudi Arabia (which are also Islamic States) to make a Hindu/Jew as there Prime Minister/President.

Unlike India, we are better in providing rights to minorities, there are tens of Church and Mandir around Pakistan they are all in there original shape, yet in india you destroyed the Masjid in Ayodiyah.

I would request you to look in to your ownselves before pointing fingers at us (Pakistanis)
 
Because that would imply that the Qadianis are also Muslim, because they do believe in the Five Pillars of Islam. But we already know that Qadianis/Ahmadis cannot be Muslims because they do not accept Khatme Nabuwwah (even though that is not one of the 5 pillars).

There is a mistake here , Actually Declaring Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) as Allah's messenger is part of the first pillar of Islam The Shahadah .
 
This is bad...U did not understand ...what I wanted to say.
Actually ! Your whole post belongs to Mullah, and Its not just your fault, even a community from our society sing the same song Mullah, Mullah. seriously , They are over reacting on it. blabbering and blabbering.
 
People are making as if pakistan is created to protect islam ..but in reality it is created to safeguard interest of muslims because they thought that they wont have enough freedom in united india .. But sadly they are advocating for same devil of intolerance fearing which they became seperate entity ..
 
well a lot of Pakistani 's here and their politians included say..."we will give full rights to the minorities.....even though you dont allow them to hold some posts"....i just want to ask you ....who the hell are you to give a person his rights?....does he not just have them by just being born as a human.....what are you think you are to these minorities..masters?.....and there in lies your fault (you consider your self as superior by default (even though you have not established anything or proved your worth )and thereby a master to those you consider inferior)
 
I think u didnt carefully read what i posted.I said laws are used selectively to target minorities.


Good along with bring up the names of all muslims prosecuted or otherwise released by courts as charged under these laws you'll see the stark discrimination whith all those lives got waste being locked up in jails under these laws.



Does it really takes for u to put 2+2=4?
Diverting issues on electorate concern when the real issue was being minority or majority.Anyway you again wrong on this issue.india majorly votes along caste and religious lines.

And as for examples of cabinet ministers--here main question was about the most powerful and coveted seat in india ie PM.

Firstly you said "TADA/POTA/UPPA were used to selectively target innocent muslims"..and Muslims are not the only minorities India.

Do You agree the law itself is not discriminatory...but you believe there is a problem with the way it was being practiced(since TADA and POTA and no longer there)..do you see the difference wrt Pakistan's constitution or not ..ie where their constitution itself is discrimationg b/w majority and minority religions.


<B>Pota trials under HC scanner</B>

Here is something you should read ..POTA was widely used against MAOIST ... no religious discrimination there.
ACTs like Unlawful Activities Prevention Act (UPA) was adopted against north east insurgency..again no religious discrimination there.

As far Sonia Gandhi and Manmohan Singh are concerned, Indian people are not as stupid as believe them to be.
People know Sonia or Antonia Edvige Albina Maino is Catholic by birth and Manmohan Singh is a Sikh by birth and together they have been ruling India for past 8yrs. No amount sidestepping you can avoid the fact that presently India is being ruled by people belonging to minority religion.
 
Very interesting POV! :tup:

Now the question arises whether the hard core Sunni Mullahs will be responsible for a future civil war with the Shias, Ahl-e-hadith, Barelvis, Sufis, Yazidis, Ahl-e-Sunnah-wal-Jamah, Ahl-e-bayt, Deobandis, Ismailis, Ahmadis, Nazariyas, Dawoodis, Najdi, Zaidi, Salafis, Babis, Hejazi, Bahais, Ibadi, Mandawis, etc.

Personally, I think religion is an outdated concept that has run its course. Universal humanism may soon be the new 'religion' of the future which encompasses the idea that man should show respect to man, irrespective of class, race or creed which is fundamental to the humanist attitude to life. Among the fundamental moral principles, he would count those of freedom, justice, tolerance and happiness&#8230;the attitude that people can live an honest, meaningful life without following a formal religious creed.

Never in history has more blood been shed than in religious wars and persecution.
 
well a lot of Pakistani 's here and their politians included say..."we will give full rights to the minorities.....even though you dont allow them to hold some posts"....i just want to ask you ....who the hell are you to give a person his rights?....does he not just have them by just being born as a human.....what are you think you are to these minorities..masters?.....and there in lies your fault (you consider your self as superior by default (even though you have not established anything or proved your worth )and thereby a master to those you consider inferior)
Well ! Leader must be from majority, or the power should be given to majority, minorities should have given their basic rights. In Pakistan minorities have their share in parliament, considering that their perentage camparision with muslims, whether you give them right of P.M post or not ,I don't see any chance that they are going to be selected. and Ofcourse! Unlike MMS , we don't want any Puppet P.M . State have to always interfere when it smells the atmosphere of riots.
 
I have only one question to ask for pakistanis who are opposing secular values ..
Would you have been satisfied if you are given same rights like your minority in a hypothetical united india ?
 
Note of Caution as Preamble: This post may be controversial because it questions a key belief that is widely held in our society. In addition, in order to make my point, I have had to take recourse to some illustrations involving sectarian differences and religious views. I apologize in advance if anyone feels hurt or upset by this original post. I also request all further posters to first take a few deep breaths to let all the immediate emotions subside, and then recite "Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un" 10 times before they reach for the keyboard. We would not like to see this thread turn into a deranged shouting match....

---

There is a common belief in our country that Islam provides excellent protection for minority religions and so an Islamic state is no threat to the rights of non-muslim minorities. Therefore, the argument goes, there is no need for Pakistan to become an officially-Secular Republic like Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, Jordan, Morocco etcetera. Pakistan, it is strongly argued, would be just fine as a non-secular Islamic Country like Saudi Arabia or Iran.

In this post, I will now argue that the people who hold the above view have not really grasped the importance of secularism to Pakistan.

The importance of secularism to Pakistan has nothing to do with the safety of religious minorities. Absolutely nothing. It has everything to do with the safety of the religious majority. To see why, let us do a mind-experiment:

<<< WARNING: The following may offend some readers. If you are extremely sensitive by nature, please stop reading this post now and move to another thread>>>

Imagine a Pakistan in which there are no religious minorities. No Hindus, no Christians, no Sikhs, and no Parsees whatsoever. In other words, Pakistan is 100% Muslim-- to the last man. In that case, we would say that it makes no difference whether we create a Secular or Islamic Republic, as the issue of religious minorities would not exist.

So let us suppose that we go ahead and create an Islamic Republic. Yes, this will be a State made for only for Muslims, but this will not oppress, disenfranchise or endanger anyone, because the State is does not have any non-Muslims.

Having created this Islamic State, the next question that logically follows is this: What is Islam? Or more to the point: Who is a Muslim? For whom was this state created and for whom does it exist when it officially calls itself an Islamic Republic? After all, it makes no sense to create an "Islamic" State without have a lucid legal definition of the terms "Islam" and "Muslim".

Clearly, we cannot accept that anyone who just says he is a Muslim is a Muslim. Otherwise misguided idol-worshippers with multiple gods could keeping on worshipping rats, monkeys, snakes & cows and still say that they are Muslim----but clearly just saying so would not make that true.

So it becomes a question of setting down a set of rules which define exactly who is a Muslim. Let us say we go for something simple, universal and inclusive: "A Muslim is one who observes the Five Pillars of Islam".

But wait, we can't do that...

Because that would imply that the Qadianis are also Muslim, because they do believe in the Five Pillars of Islam. But we already know that Qadianis/Ahmadis cannot be Muslims because they do not accept Khatme Nabuwwah (even though that is not one of the 5 pillars).

To solve this conundrum, let us say we amend our Constitution to declare the Ahmadis as non-muslims. Then we strip them of their citizenship and expel all of them from Pakistan. All Exiled. All Gone.

Pakistan is now back to 100% real Muslims who observes Khatme Nabuwwah. Good. Now can we use the definition of the Five Pillars of Islam?

No, we cannot.

Because the Sunni, Shia, Ismaili pillars are all different.

Five Pillars of Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ancillaries of the Faith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sixth Pillar of Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Seven pillars of Ismailism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Upon further examination, it becomes obvious that the Shias cannot get along with the Sunnis. These two girohs are inherently incompatible. Especially when we consider the parts about loving Ahl-ul-Bait (Ali, Fatima, Hussein, Hasan & other Imams) and hating those who rebel against them or usurp their rights (Aisha, Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman & other Caliphs like Mu'awiya & Yazid).

In fact, a lot of what our Quaid-i-Azam said in his 1940 Two-Nation Theory speech about "..they have different epics, different heroes, and different episodes. Very often the hero of one is a foe of the other and, likewise, their victories and defeats overlap.." is exactly true between Shia and Sunni.

"These are two different nations that cannot co-exist..", as our Quaid said, and so "..to yoke together two such nations under a single state, one as a numerical minority (Shia) and the other as a majority (Sunni), must lead to growing discontent and final destruction of any fabric that may be so built for the government of such a state"

So that 5-pillar definition won't work. And our own basic Two-Nation Theory proves that reconciliation or compromise won't work either. So let us say we solve this problem also by amending the constitution again to declare the Shia as non-Muslim. We then strip them of their citizenship and expel all of them from Pakistan as well. All exiled. All gone.

Pakistan is now 100% Sunni, with Sunni being accepted as the more precise definition of Muslim. No more Shias, Seveners, Twelvers, Nizaris, Alawis, Druze, Ismailis, Zaidi, Bohra, etcetera. All driven out. Fitna is over. Only 100% pure Sunnis as the true Muslims with the true Five Pillars of Islam (and, of course--lest we forget-- Khatme Nabuwwah).

Are we done?

Not quite. Because if, in trying to define who is Muslim, we are going to say that the word "Muslim" is actually synonymous with "Sunni", then the next logical question become: Who is a Sunni? For whom was this Sunni State created? For whom does it exist?

Well, we would say that-- by definition-- a Sunni is obviously one who follows the Sunnah (or the example of the Prophet).

But then again we have a problem.

The Barelvis cannot be Sunnis because they worship at graves and ask for mannah from dead people, when the example of the Prophet clearly shows that he specifically prohibited this in no uncertain terms. The prophet himself asked Ali to smash all the mausoleums and raised graves along with the idols in Makkah and forbade people, under punishment of the hell-fire, from worshipping at graves ever gain. This business with the graves is clearly not the Sunnah.

In addition, the Sufis who sing, dance, whirl, play musical instruments in religious ceremonies also cannot be Sunni, because the example of the Prophet clearly shows that he said that these practices were the impure habits of the Kufar-e-Makkah in the period of Jahiliyya. It is inconceivable even to imagine the Prophet and the Sahaba singing, dancing, clapping, playing instruments and whirling as a way to worship God. Therefore, this also cannot be the Sunnah.

And all of these are not simple, trivial practices that the Sufis & Barelvis can just change or abandon. They have been doing this for centuries and their Mowlas have developed tremendous literature, rites, rituals and liturgical books on Wahdat-ul-Wajood and so forth. They are not going to throw all that away just because someone asks them to.

So we conclude that the Barelvi, Sufis, Dervishes and so on are not really Sunni and will never be real Sunnis.

To solve this problem, say we amend the constitution yet again and declare them all as non-Muslims. We then we strip them of their citizenship and expel all of these pseudo-Sunnis from Pakistan as well. No more Dervishes, Barelvis, Grave-worshippers, Dargahs, Mausoleums, Urs, Qawwalis. All gone. Only 100% pure Sunnah of the Prophet allowed. No more monkey business. No more Bidah.

So now what are we left with?

An Empty Pakistan!

This is because 90% of Pakistanis will then have been driven out of Pakistan. But if 90% of Pakistanis have been driven-out, then what is the meaning of Pakistan? What is any country or land without the all the people who have always lived there?

And to think that all of this started with that pesky Khatme Nabuwwat issue. If only we hadn't started that, we could have just said that anyone who is willing to uncover (K-F-R) and bear witness (Sh-D-H) that there is no god but God (W-H-D) and Muhammed is his messenger (R-S-L) is a Muslim (S-L-M). And then we would not have opened this can of fitna-worms. But with that Khatme Nabuwwat Legislation, it is now far too late to put that takfiri-genie back in the bottle....

<<<END: Controversial mind-experiment ends here>>>

As we can see, the importance of secularism has nothing to do with the safety or rights of the non-muslim minority-religions. The importance of Secularism for Pakistan lies in this: For whom was Pakistan made? If you answer, "For Muslims", then the dreaded question arises: Who is a Muslim? Contrary to lay belief, the answer to this has historically never been clear beyond the era of the Sahaba. Sunni/Shia/Khariji-Ibadi, Zaidi/Hejazi/Najdi/Imami have been around for a long, long time in various parts of the world trying to settle this very question by fighting amongst themselves. And even today, asking this question sets into motion a sequence of events that eventually finishes with people at each other&#8217;s throats, with each one saying to the other: "My truth is greater than your truth!" or "Mine is True, Yours is False!".

Would it not be much better to just say: Pakistan was made for all 100% of the people who have always lived on this land that we call Pakistan; religion has nothing to do with it, as religion is a personal, family or local community matter. Shias, Ahl-e-hadith, Barelvis, Sufis, Yazidis, Ahl-e-Sunnah-wal-Jamah, Ahl-e-bayt, Deobandis, Ismailis, Ahmadis, Nazariyas, Dawoodis, Najdi, Zaidi, Salafis, Babis, Hejazi, Bahais, Ibadi, Mandawis are all equally Pakistanis. (Again, we note that Hindus, Parsees, Christian etc have nothing to do with this-- their presence or absence in Pakistan does not make one iota of a difference to the argument for secularism.)


PS: I note as an interesting side-issue that Israel (created similar to our country and at about the same time) does not have this problem. And that is because Judaism is not really a proselytizing religion, but essentially an inherited one. So the Jews view themselves not as much as followers of some particular religion, but rather as a People.

For example, while it is not possible for a Muslim (or a Christian) to turn to atheism and still continue to call himself a Muslim (or a Christian), it is certainly possible for a Jew to deny the existence of God and still call himself Jewish on the basis that his parents and their parents and so on were Jewish. This is why history records bloodbaths in Europe between Orthodoxies, Catholics & Protestants, while there is no such equivalent religious bloodletting between Jewish/Israelite sects despite their also having significant theological differences and arguments.

I fear that Pakistan may be heading for a repeat of the horrific violence that Europe saw between the Catholics, the Orthodoxies and the Protestants before the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason. In other words, Islamic (non-secular) Pakistan may well be headed into the equivalent of the Dark-Ages of Christian Europe. Therefore, the only hope I see is for Pakistan to move toward Secularism and disentangle the State from all Religion.

----

I could be wrong. This is just my theory. I just thought it would be interesting if readers would come up with their own views on this theory. Does not have to be in absolutes of True/False, Yes/No only. Posters could also examine finer nuances like "Yes, but", "No, although", "Unlikely, but possible", "Improbable, but not impossible" etcetera.

If you read Koran carefully you will get your answers clearly and without any doubt.
The controversy about "Khatme Nabuwwah " stems from the different interpretations of the Arabic word Khaatamo al anbia' witch means the seal of the prophets or the highest sign of prophethood, and it can also be interpreted as Khatimo al anbia' or the sealer ( the last ) of a all prophets.

AS for shi'a and sunna differences , they are almost non existent; this is what some one said in another thread and my answer to him:


"Think of it this way:
Shia=Quran+Imams and wali
Sunni=Quran+tafsir+sunnah(so called)
What is common in both? Quran. Therefore following the Quran can unite Islam."

You mean Shia do not have Tafsir.
and sunnis have "a so called" Sunnah (the path of the prophet SAAS)
Let me put the equation for you this way, and you might have a better understanding:

Islam= Quran + (Imams=Tafsir) + (Wali -Ali-(a sunnah follower) = Sunnah)


Therefore there are no differences at all. And obviously by following the Quran, the Muslims will be more United.

The Jews have/had an enormous racial problem between the Ashkenaz and the Hassidim for hundreds of years.


To conclude, Pakistan is not Europe nor Christianity and Pakistan as a Muslim nation will prevail.

You need to deepen your knowledge if you think Jewish, Christian or Hindu countries are not influenced by their religions; even though it is shallow it is still very influential on the minds of the politicians who belong to it. (they can claim to be atheists or else, they are still being manipulated by their religious leaders and projecting their shortcomings on Islam in particular, the reason is that Islam is ethically superior).

I really think this thread should be:
Israel has 2 choices: Secularism or Death
Since it is Israel who has a very big problem with the acceptance of Muslim Palestinians as a part of Israel (Palestine their own land-this is the extreme anyone can go to and blame others for not being "secular - a very strange name-") .
 
Note of Caution as Preamble:
Because that would imply that the Qadianis are also Muslim, because they do believe in the Five Pillars of Islam. But we already know that Qadianis/Ahmadis cannot be Muslims because they do not accept Khatme Nabuwwah (even though that is not one of the 5 pillars).

The Qadianis infact don't believe in the five pillars of Islam. The don't believe in Quran as a whole. They believe what suits them regarding Aqeeda-e-Rasaalat. They don't believe as it is said in Holy Quran so they are Kafirs/non-Muslims period......
:smokin:
 
Pakistan is an Islamic Republic country, hence it does provide equal right to the minorities, thats point one.

Your asking of a non-muslim/KAFIR to be our Prime Minister/President is like asking, Iran and Saudi Arabia (which are also Islamic States) to make a Hindu/Jew as there Prime Minister/President.

Unlike India, we are better in providing rights to minorities, there are tens of Church and Mandir around Pakistan they are all in there original shape, yet in india you destroyed the Masjid in Ayodiyah.

I would request you to look in to your ownselves before pointing fingers at us (Pakistanis)

This is a non issue and Internet Hindus are just doing what Internet Hindus do.
In UK you can't be the PM unless you are part of the Church of England, In US you can't be President unless you are born on American soil.
Pakistan is well within it's right to have laws to govern who can be the PM and we don't have to justify anything to them.
 
Parental advisory: This post may contain spoilers on how to save Pakistan. It WILL also hurt religious zealots.. If such a case please discontinue reading - you may go back to arab-lands. This post is for Pakistanis only.

Guys, read a bit of Turkish history... the unwritten one.... This has already been done before... At the turn of the 20th century, Turkey was shattered between religious groups, the mullahs had literally divided the country and had sold their allegiances to foreign powers.

One man gathered an army..... and eliminated all the religious dogs.

<!-------- THIS IS UNCENSORED HISTORY - BITE ME! --------->

The Ata-Turk way:
1. Killed ALL... I MEAN ALL of the Islamists. The senior mullahs were sent in numerous, huge cruise ships for performing Hajj and bombed in the middle of Mediterranean - Rest were sent to their beloved god in the middle of sleep, and the remainder hung from lamp-posts! Not a joke!
2. Gathered ALL OF their wives and protesting **tches in the middle of Ulus (Ankara) and ordered the army to convert their burqas to mini skirts with swords... NO JOKES HERE
3. Changed the Arab alphabet in as little as THREE NIGHTS to Latin alphabet. < Not kidding!
4. Burned EVERY BOOK in the country that had arab alphabet in it. < Absolutely true!

And voila we have modern-day Turkiye! :D

<!-------- THIS IS UNCENSORED HISTORY - BITE ME! --------->

Lesson: Turkey wasn't just built upon wishful thinking.. To what extremes are you willing to go to save Pakistan? Our country suffers from the same virus that was introduced in pre-historic Turkey, they fought it and won, what are we going to do about it?

Whatever you do, just don't be indecisive and apathetic. Religions will come and go, Pakistan will never come back. Take a step back, save the country and then our children may come back and reclaim their religion.

Note: We have a beautiful religion of PEACE, but sadly it was sent to the wrong place. It has been twisted to such an extent that it needs to be studied, interpreted and it's nuances evaluated by a race with a higher IQ and a better moral compass! < That's us one day..... :D :moil:


Now just a thought: Imagine... Pakistan is lost one day.... Ask this question to yourself:

Q) Identify yourself - choose one of the following?

1. Arab - Do I need to clarify how great they kiss your arses?
2. Indian - You got to be kidding me, think about it, 60+ plus years of us fingering them.
3. Afghan - Dream on.... they never accepted any outsiders.
4. Persian - BAHAHAHA - They'll kill you on the border before you show them a document starting that you are destitute.

The end would be what you can not comprehend at the moment. So be secular and be Pakistanis. Export religion back to it's place of origin.
 
Guys, read a bit of Turkish history... the unwritten one.... This has already been done before... At the turn of the 20th century, Turkey was shattered between religious groups, the mullahs had literally divided the country and had sold their allegiances to foreign powers.

One man gathered an army..... and eliminated all the religious dogs.

The Ata-Turk way:
1. Killed ALL... I MEAN ALL of the Islamists.
2. Gathered ALL OF their wives and protesting **tches in the middle of Ulus (Ankara) and ordered the army to convert their burqas to mini skirts with swords... NO JOKES HERE
3. Changed the Arab alphabet in as little as THREE NIGHTS to Latin alphabet. < Not kidding!
4. Burned EVERY BOOK in the country that has arab alphabet in it. < Absolutely true!

And voila we have modern-day Turkiye! :D

Lesson: Turkey wasn't just built upon wishful thinking.. To what extremes are you willing to go to save Pakistan? Our country suffers from the same virus that was introduced in pre-historic Turkey, they fought it and won, what are we going to do about it?

That's a load of crap.
Turkey was suffering from entrenched interests not allowing the government to modernize. This entrenched interests exist in every country and the countries that could break them ended up prospering and the ones who could not ended up getting conquered. Pakistan need to break the entrenched interests on both the religious and secular ends.
 
Pakistan is an Islamic Republic country, hence it does provide equal right to the minorities, thats point one.

Your asking of a non-muslim/KAFIR to be our Prime Minister/President is like asking, Iran and Saudi Arabia (which are also Islamic States) to make a Hindu/Jew as there Prime Minister/President.

Unlike India, we are better in providing rights to minorities, there are tens of Church and Mandir around Pakistan they are all in there original shape, yet in india you destroyed the Masjid in Ayodiyah.

I would request you to look in to your ownselves before pointing fingers at us (Pakistanis)

This is height of contradiction..you are agreeing that you have a constitution that discriminates against your minorities(it does not allow them to apply for head of the state, simply because they do not belong to the majority religion) and at same time claim, you provide all rights to you minorities. How are the two even possible??
 
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