Pakistan has 2 Choices: Secularism or Death

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

I do not know, how much you know about democracy but isn't it obvious?

When you born in a country, you spend entire life in it, work towards its development..pay your taxes..raise your children there..and you can not apply for certain jobs just because the religion you follow is not a majority religion...it like people of that country do not trust you and people of your religion with certains jobs ..why?..because you have different religion.

To be able apply for being of head of the state is a birth right in a democracy.

To the contrary, the state provides him enough. Job opportunities, availability of food and comfort even the right to worship in their religion. Head of state not because its an Islamic state..

 

[Armstrong]

What we want is to get rid of these Mullahs who have poisoned our youth, crippled our society and targeted Muslims and Non-Muslims alike ! What we need is better Governance, a better educated and stronger middle-class and a truly socialistic society where you pick your brother up when he has fallen and not use terms like 'survival of the fittest' to justify your inhumanity. For that to happen, in my humble opinion, the way to go is - a Pluralistic Democracy ! And not these un-natural shackles of 'separation of religion and state' or conversely of an Iranian or Saudi styled 'theocracy' for the former assumes that a practising Muslims will nod his/her head in agreement when the Quran talks about 'Praying, Fasting etc' - all those individualistic aspects of our faith, but that the same Muslim will ignore the same Quran when it talks about - Shariah, Islamic Finance, Standards of propriety etc. ! Whereas the latter assumes that 'Islam is Monolithic' and a 'Clergy Class' is needed to regulate the 'faith'; in my humble opinion, both extremes would lead us to great ruin.

As for what we mean by 'Islamic Polity' - Simply that Shias, Sunnis, some of the deviant sects and the sects within our sects, coming together in the Parliament trying to reach a consensus whereby they define everything from the 'Shariah' to its 'limits', from integral questions like 'what is Interest' to 'what do we do about it ?'. Just as it is reasonable to assume that Parliamentarians from all walks of life and different backgrounds are perfectly capable of coming together, debating, exchanging ideas and then reaching a consensus on whether 'we should open the supply routes or not', we should be perfectly capable of doing the same thing in case of legislating when pertaining to 'Islamic Polity'. The fact that we cannot is not because of the inherent fallaciousness of the concept but because of colossal operational hurdles been put into its way for the past 65 years. A consensus on subjects so delicate require one of two things : 1) the democratic process to have been left to mature over the years so that greater awareness and accountability would have been imbibed in the political consciousness of the masses and their elected representatives respectively. And 2) exponentially greater levels of educations (and not a sorry excuse for a schooling !) so that most of the electorate can analyse things critically and ask 'why ?' and 'why not ?' every step of the way. The failure to do either of these things has ensured that most of history is riddled with dysfunctional democracies and even more dysfunctional society trying to get their act together during the few years of pause between 'Military Dictatorships' and because of our lack of literacy amongst most Pakistanis and a lack of good education amongst the so-called 'educated masses' has ensured that we're in the pockets of the same Mullahs who corrupt our youth and poison our society to no-end for their ulterior motives. Unless either of those two things are solved we will remain in the same dilapidated state that we are in no matter the political ideology enshrined in the constitution. Take a dozen different 'isms' and try to impose them in Pakistan and none of them would have made an ounce of a difference because the 'killings' would continue, the army would have a bout of patriotism every now and then and liberate Islamabad all over again and the 'People'...yes the 'People', they'd remain as down-trodden, illiterate and easily influenced as ever.

However, the proposition of a 'Secular Pakistan' opens up another possibility as well. How do you bring about the realization of such a 'proposition' in a country that overwhelmingly demands the imposition of the Shariah (was it 82% as per PEW ?) without incurring a significant backlash from the society at the large ? If its through a 'dictatorship', you'd have a rebellion at your hands that makes the militancy in Balochistan and the insurgency in KP - both combined into one - looking like a bunch of 10 year olds with fake plastic air-guns. You'd even face a severe backlash and possibly a violent one at that from 'Punjab' and parts of Sindh. If its a democracy no party which talks about 'curbing Political Islam' is ever going to win a Province let alone the whole country...even the likes of PPP and the sort had to spin off something that Bhutto called 'Islamic Socialism' and slogans like 'Islam is our religion, democracy is our politics and socialism is our economy' ! So I fear terrible blood bath if we ever go down the path of 'imposition' and electoral suicide if we ever go down the path of 'democracy'.

Either way, I'm not sure if the Ideological dimensions of the State are that big an issue right now ! Islamic Polity neither forced us to patronize the Taliban in Afghanistan nor pull off a Kargil on the Eastern Side - Our foOked up policies did. Shariah neither forced us to elect a bunch of crooks to our Parliament nor elect another crook's Son (Gilani) a few days ago - Our lack of political maturity and our abysmally low levels of education did. Islamic Finance has nothing to do in the world with the misuse of resources from the 'Baitul Maal' to finance the escapades of these vermin sitting in our parliament nor the shameful treatment meted out to the widow who stands in line for hours at a stretch just to collect her deceased husband's pension, our moral and financial corruption did. Islamic Standards of Propriety neither forced us to treat our women as commodities like we do nor to subject them to domestic violence at the best and rapes and acid attacks at the very worst, our lack of values, education and our blatant hypocrisy did. All of them have very little to do with Islam or its Political manifestations but everything to do with Governance ! Who is stopping the Government from hanging all these rapists and acid attackers in public ? Who is stopping the Government from putting the Hudood Ordinance under scrutiny when many Muslim Scholars themselves are crying out that the laws there in are a perversion of the Shariah ? Who is stopping the Government from shooting Qadri and taking out his rather more active sympathizers ? Who is stopping the Government from investing heavily in our education system ? From baring entry into the Madrasas for all those haven't at least completed their education till the 12th Grade ? None of them are 'religious issues' per se but all of them are issues of 'Governance' that those in charged with 'Governance' fail to address either because of politicking or because they haven't the resolve to do anything about it !

Either way I stand by what I said - Unless the underlying causes for our decline are addressed changing any amounts of 'isms' would be a 'cosmetic' change at best and met with a 'violent' back-lash at the very worst.

 

[Hyperion]

Hey hey... Look at my lil' boy all grown up.... kiddo!

Just join my bandwagon of complete hatred towards ..... and you're already there!

What we want is to get rid of these Mullahs who have poisoned our youth, crippled our society and targeted Muslims and Non-Muslims alike !.

 

[The SC]

Very interesting POV!

Now the question arises whether the hard core Sunni Mullahs will be responsible for a future civil war with the Shias, Ahl-e-hadith, Barelvis, Sufis, Yazidis, Ahl-e-Sunnah-wal-Jamah, Ahl-e-bayt, Deobandis, Ismailis, Ahmadis, Nazariyas, Dawoodis, Najdi, Zaidi, Salafis, Babis, Hejazi, Bahais, Ibadi, Mandawis, etc.

Personally, I think religion is an outdated concept that has run its course. Universal humanism may soon be the new 'religion' of the future which encompasses the idea that man should show respect to man, irrespective of class, race or creed which is fundamental to the humanist attitude to life. Among the fundamental moral principles, he would count those of freedom, justice, tolerance and happiness…the attitude that people can live an honest, meaningful life without following a formal religious creed.

Never in history has more blood been shed than in religious wars and persecution.

All your highlighted sentences are from Islam and yet you compare it the other religious practices and their ills, it is a bit strange, it is as if you have quoted the Quran without knowing it.
Those sects you are talking about are extreme minorities in an almost 2 billion Muslim world.

 

[ares]

To the contrary, the state provides him enough. Job opportunities, availability of food and comfort even the right to worship in their religion. Head of state not because its an Islamic state..

First of all tone of your post indicates that providing your minorities with job,food, right to worship their GOD ..you are doing them a favor!!.

Why not?..What has he done deserve that...why can you apply for the job ..and he can't?
are you better person than him?
Are you more qualified than him?
what has governing a country got to do with one's religion..or do you think people of any other religion than Islam..can not govern a country(I mean look at your country, you can probably do with some new blood).

However if your only problem is that, you won't allow your minorities into certain jobs just because you have chosen to name your country a Islamic Republic then do away the with Islamic part and just be a republic..both you and your minority's problem are solved.

However if you can't even do that, then quit parading around with lines like "Pakistan/Islam provides equal right to minorities" because it does not.

 

[Armstrong]

Nops... Turkey was infiltrated and divided on the basis of religion from day one. It wasn't till they promoted nationalism above religion that they could start to reclaim what they had lost.... Don't read Wiki too much..... They were stabbed in the back by none other than god's favorite from the arid lands....

Pray tell me how do we do that in a multi-ethnic and multi-linguistic country as Pakistan ? What would be our 'over-arching' identity that is at the very cornerstone of 'Nationalism' ?

 

[DaRk WaVe]

Pakistan has only one option Islam choosing secularism or death is the same thing for Pakistan by choosing Secularism Pakistan will end in no time their will be complete chaos this crap known as secularism is a failed theory and has completely failed in Muslims countries after Arab Spring and will fail in Europe too

Last time i heard the countries with the best economic conditions & living standards were all following this failed theory, when was the last time you came across a true Islamic country? Point out one country with the Islamic system of Governance that is rocking in every aspect of life

 

[Armstrong]

Hey hey... Look at my lil' boy all grown up.... kiddo!

Just join my bandwagon of complete hatred towards ..... and you're already there!

I'll begin with you Pukhtoons first by closing up all the 'Naswar' factories that you've got all over the country !

P.S I don't like the Mullahs who go about on their 'self-styled' divine missions but I'm not against 'Political Islam'.

 

[K-Xeroid]

Hey hey... Look at my lil' boy all grown up.... kiddo!

Just join my bandwagon of complete hatred towards ..... and you're already there!

You are extremist in your own type!!! But wat best you can do is just "blabbering".

 

[Hyperion]

Pray tell me how do we do that in a multi-ethnic and multi-linguistic country as Pakistan ? What would be our 'over-arching' identity that is at the very cornerstone of 'Nationalism' ?

Progress and equality for all can be our identity... Quaid and Iqbal were not very pious mooslis, were they? Just our combined distaste for the overbearing hindus won us a lottery....

You are extremist in your own type!!! But wat best you can do is just "blabbering".

You enjoy it, don't you?

I'm not against 'Political Islam'.

Neither am I! But.... what degree of Peeping-Islam are you in favor of mixing with our daily cup of chai-latte?

 

[The SC]

Well good for wanting what you want.

But thing is we don't care about, what do you want, neither do we care about your Hindus, Sikhs or Christians.

You can treat them crap for all we care..but don't come comparing to us or casting doubts on on our committance to secular ideals, for we will continue to provide equal right to our minorities irrespective of how Pakistanis treat their minorities!!


That is why ,when Pakistani chose to become Islamic republic and opted to be a nation for the people of just one religion. We chose to remain a secular republic be nation for people of all religions.

Last time saw the Agni ICBM missile lunch it was a Hindu ceremony, so what secularism are you talking about?

 

[ares]

You are making it look difficult although it isnt..
Yes, the minorities cannot apply for the post of head of state; and this is similar to the fact that you fill a vacancy of an Electrical Engineer with an Electrical Engineer and not an Accountant.
-- So, the head of an Islamic Republic should be a Muslim.

And It ain't as simple ..as you make it sound.

Moving fwd with your analogy..Electric engineer can apply for Electric engineer's post, similarly an accountant can apply for accountants ..but what about Hindu or Sikh or Christan Pakistani ..who wants to become PM or president or COAS ..he can not become PM or president of any other country can he...and even his own country can not accept him.

 

[K-Xeroid]

Last time i heard the countries with the best economic conditions & living standards were all following this failed theory,

Really!!!! Somalia, Ethopia are also among state with no religion,are forgeting them?

 

[Hyperion]

'Naswar'

The only word i can see up there is NASWAR... Never, EVER.....EVER blackmail us on the green nectar of gods... Hail to the divine eternal that created this bliss .....

Crap... I don't get it here. Why did you bring it up... Was it just to hurt me?..... Now I feel withdrawal symptoms, all over again!

 

[mjnaushad]

very good read... we are glad to have you on board.