Pakistan First ! The case for Pakistani Nationalism.

[Cliftonite]

Here in London in the the UK, Pakistanis are also intermarrying with Iranians and Afghans in large numbers too. Your point being?

@Baibars_1260 if only he knew what Persian and Afghan nationalists think and speak of him and his ilk. They call people like him "neo Indians" and "sh*t -stained" because they know it stings.

Better to be unabashedly brown and "sh*t-stained" than be infected with we wuzz Iranian we wuzz Afghan identity crisis

 

[Baibars_1260]

Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi is one for sure. Who are the others? Rubika Liaquat? Shehzad Poonawalla?

We can neglect Tarek Fateh who is an "Iranian blood" Pakistani and Adnan Sami who is the progeny of a Pakistani war hero.
But there is Shahnawaz Hussain and Baqqal Nawab.
Others are there, but who don't speak out much, like M.J. Akbar ( racially pure Kashmiri) and Najma Heptullah ( who incidentally is of Saudi origin).
The Congressi Bharatiya Muslims like Ghulam Nabi Azad ( racially pure Kashmiri), and Salman Khursheed ( racially pure Rohilla ) don't slam Pakistan.

Assadudin Owaisi slams Pakistan to avoid getting branded as a "Desh Drohi" . Don't know if Owaisi is a Chaoosh, Sudani descendants of the Nizam's mercenaries.

 

[Cliftonite]

We can neglect Tarek Fateh who is an "Iranian blood" Pakistani and Adnan Sami who is the progeny of a Pakistani war hero.
But there is Shahnawaz Hussain and Baqqal Nawab.
Others are there, but who don't speak out much, like M.J. Akbar and Najma Heptullah ( who incidentally is of Saudi origin).
The Congressi Bharatiya Muslims like Ghulam Nabi Azad ( racially pure Kashmiri), and Salman Khursheed ( racially pure Rohilla ) don't slam Pakistan.

Assadudin Owaisi slams Pakistan to avoid getting branded as a "Desh Drohi".

As for Asad Owaisi, Hyderabadi Muslims do have an anti Pakistani sentiment.

And after reading history I can understand why. Their view is that Operation Polo and the 250,000 lives lost could have been avoided if Pakistan hadn't convinced Nawab of Hyderabad to accede to Pakistan. Something like Pakistan gave up on them when the time came.

 

[nahtanbob]

1. "Indian" Muslims - We are not part of "India", and yes a majority of our
population is Muslim, but religion is not the only defining feature of our national
identity.
We have no connection with the Muslim population of "India" as defined by its
territory today.


3. "South" Asians- Pakistanis are Asians and our population similarity is with West or Central
Asia.

What do PDF members think?

Are the other South Asian populations at all relevant to us?

I assume you meant to say Pakistanis are not Asians

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

@Baibars_1260 if only he knew what Persian and Afghan nationalists think and speak of him and his ilk. They call people like him "neo Indians" and "sh*t -stained" because they know it stings.

Better to be unabashedly brown and "sh*t-stained" than be infected with we wuzz Iranian we wuzz Afghan identity crisis

But it's not stopping Pakistanis, Iranians and Afghans from intermarrying here in London. Neither is it stopping Pakistani/Romanian marriages either..............looks like you gangu backside is on fire..........

Nice try, indian false flagger:

 

[Cliftonite]

But it's not stopping Pakistanis, Iranians and Afghans from intermarrying here in London. Neither is it stopping Pakistani/Romanian marriages either..............looks like you gangu backside is on fire..........

Nice try, indian false flagger:

View attachment 709426

Why would my backside be on fire?

Only racial complex ridden weirdos like you covet white skin. Since when is marrying Romanians and Afghans a badge of honor?

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Perhaps you live in Bradford, or Manchester. There are significant cases of Thalasemia there .The U.K. NHS has done a study on intermarriages with statistics that you can find in the Lancet and British Journal of Medicine. This thread is concerned with Pakistani Nationalism and Pakistani Identity on which we are generally in agreement. We are not discussing genetics .



What is your evidence for that?
Any anthropological studies?
I already told you the difference between Ashraf Indian Muslims and Ajlaf Muslims.
The Sindhis, and , South Punjabis don't look like Afghans. Culturally there will always be differences. A fair skinned Syed Muslim lady physician from Lucknow in India is unlikely to marry a Rangar, Lohar, or Bhatti worker from South Punjab . In UK there are very few Indian Muslim taxi drivers, or grocery shop owners ( largely from Mirpur). Indian Muslims are well represented ( in fact beyond their population breakup ) in the medical profession. A study was done by the by the UK Ministry of Education tracking the path of Indian and Pakistani students, Up to the 5th Form Indian and Pakistani origin students surged ahead equally often exceeding their British counterparts. Then Pakistani students slacked off basically because their nuclear families are compromised by peer pressure from grandparents who often migrate over to live with the family.
Culturally different peer pressure puts stress on the children. Also ghetto complex such as in South-hall and Bradford.
Indian Muslims don't suffer this handicap and match the academic achievements of their Hindu counterparts. Which is why they do better. Hence there are fewer fish and chip shop Indian Muslim workers. Indian Muslims are unnecessarily snooty over their Pakistani brethren and this is condemnable,

This analogy falls flat in the USA with no ghettos as such. Pakistanis do very well here.

My point:
Conditions matter. Not race or culture.

[/QUOTE]



??????????????..........


How does ANY of the above disprove the increasing number of young Pakistanis, Iranians, Afghans and Romanians marrying eachother in London????.?......................

Why would my backside be on fire?

Only racial complex ridden weirdos like you covet white skin. Since when is marrying Romanians and Afghans a badge of honor?

Who said it was a badge of honour?..........it's an observation. Seems like your indian false flagging is not your forte?........:

 

[Cliftonite]

..looks like you gangu backside is on fire.

Proud as fck gangu here. Love my gangu brown skin and my gangu features. I'm not Indian however but yes proud Gangu Pakistani.

Geniuses like Ramanujan, Shakantula Devi and Abdul Kalam are also gangu. Proud to share their racial phenotype. Better than being a wannabe Nader Shah progeny who was known for pillaging and nothing else.

 

[Baibars_1260]

How does ANY of the above disprove the increasing number of young Pakistanis, Iranians, Afghans and Romanians marrying eachother in London????.?......................

Increasing? Any evidence? The British Journal of Medicine says otherwise if you look up their Thalasemia studies. It goes to the credit of Indian Muslim and Pakistani Physicians GPs to take up the community effort on discouraging consanguineous marriages.

I was in UK when I watched Afghans and Pakistanis brawling after the World Cup cricket match when Pakistan thrashed Afghanistan.

 

[Cliftonite]

I was in UK when I watched Afghans and Pakistanis brawling after the World Cup cricket match when Pakistan thrashed Afghanistan.

On an online discussion on another forum, I was told by a weird little we wuzz Afghan we wuzz Central Asian half Punjabi half Pashtun (one of those wannabe Gandharan son of Porus Indus nationalists) to not come between him and Pashtuns who are "natural brothers" and that I, as a gangu Muhajir, don't belong with them.

Lmao I was thinking inside- it's not my a** the Pashtun nationalists are after. It's your Punjabi a** they're after. I'll just grab popcorn while you two fight it out.

These racial martial race folks are messed in the head. 1971 didn't happen without reason. They subjected Bengalis to their vile racism for 24 years.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Increasing? Any evidence? The British Journal of Medicine says otherwise if you look up their Thalasemia studies. It goes to the credit of Indian Muslim and Pakistani Physicians GPs to take up the community effort on discouraging consanguineous marriages.

I was in UK when I watched Afghans and Pakistanis brawling after the World Cup cricket match when Pakistan thrashed Afghanistan.

So Thalasemia studies prove that Pakistanis and indian Muslims are marrying eachother???????..........


Afghan men may not like Pakistanis but Afghan women certainly do..............

Proud as fck gangu here. Love my gangu brown skin and my gangu features. I'm not Indian however but yes proud Gangu Pakistani.

Geniuses like Ramanujan, Shakantula Devi and Abdul Kalam are also gangu. Proud to share their racial phenotype. Better than being a wannabe Nader Shah progeny who was known for pillaging and nothing else.

Sure you are not a gangu indian.......... :

On an online discussion on another forum, I was told by a weird little we wuzz Afghan we wuzz Central Asian half Punjabi half Pashtun (one of those wannabe Gandharan son of Porus Indus nationalists) to not come between him and Pashtuns who are "natural brothers" and that I, as a gangu Muhajir, don't belong with them.

Lmao I was thinking inside- it's not my a** the Pashtun nationalists are after. It's your Punjabi a** they're after. I'll just grab popcorn while you two fight it out.

These racial martial race folks are messed in the head. 1971 didn't happen without reason. They subjected Bengalis to their vile racism for 24 years.

So says the gangu false flagger........... :

 

[Baibars_1260]

@Baibars_1260 if only he knew what Persian and Afghan nationalists think and speak of him and his ilk. They call people like him "neo Indians" and "sh*t -stained" because they know it stings.

Better to be unabashedly brown and "sh*t-stained" than be infected with we wuzz Iranian we wuzz Afghan identity crisis

But my point is that Indian Muslims are as diverse racially as their Pakistani counterparts. Yes, there are minor differences in culture and these will grow.
Over the last 50 years Pakistan has been moving closer to West and Central Asia culturally will be different. North Indian Muslim Ashraf culture that closely resembled Pakistani neutral elite culture is under attack by Hindutva cultural purists . Indian Muslims will eventually succumb but a tiny fragment as expats will survive, So you are looking at 10% of 10% of the Indian Muslim population. Even the 10% expat population is merging into the Pakistani ( mostly Punjabi) ex-pat population though the Ashraf Indian Muslims are still snooty and don't care much for the Yusufzai's and Qizlbashes. The good part is the Karachi, Bahadurabad, Sharfabad, Mukka Chowk connection with Indian Muslims is gone for good. The 1970s was the turning point when isolated from Pakistan for 8 years from 1971-1979
a new crop of Indian Muslims came up who struggled to find their niche in Indian society rather than travel to Pakistan and tear up their Indian passports on arrival. So Indian Muslims joined the civil services, armed forces, police and all the good jobs that state services offered. Only a tiny fraction made it through despite discrimination and of course 90% of these were the Ashraf.
But they hadn't foreseen the Hindutva wave These Muslims are now regretting they didn't "hop over" when India Pakistan travel resumed in 1979.
Again, we have nothing to do with them. We should leave them to their fate. So here I agree with @PAKISTANFOREVER .

 

[Surya 1]

Pakistani nationalist ideology is very unique, and for the Pakistani Muslims, Pakistani Nationalism and Islam are not mutually exclusive.


During the struggle for the freedom(and even today), the most important issue which concerned Muslim Scholars and political activists was about the national and religious identity of Indian Muslims and their position in the future India ...


Hussain Ahmed Madani (The Rector of Darul Uloom Deoband) and many others advocated "Composite Nationalism", (i.e. despite cultural, linguistic and religious differences, the people of India were but one nation). The proponents of composite nationalism believed/argued that this idea was consistent with the teachings of the Holy Quran and that the Prophet (PBUH) himself had set a practical example of Composite Nationalism when he signed the Constitution of Medina (Meesaq-e-Medina)



Then there were those who advocated the idea of "Muslim Nationalism in India" ... This idea formed the basis of the Two Nation Theory ... This idea/theory implies/implied that We were Muslims before being Indian ... And We were Indian before being (Non-Indian) Muslim ... This theory created and propounded by modernist and reformist Muslims (like Sir Syed) was inspired by Western Political Theories (of John Lock, Thomas Paine, Milton etc.).... It in a way advocated a Pan-Islamism that was restricted by geographical boundaries of the Nation state (of India, and now Pakistan).


And there were others (like Maududi) who were of the view that neither Composite Nationalism nor Muslim Nationalism were Islamic in their orientation, therefore, they warned the Muslims of the sub-continent to be beware of both. Few of them advocated "Pan-Islamism"


The opinion that Islam and Nationalism are essentially mutually exclusive has always been the minority opinion among the contemporary scholars of Islam.

Hope that helps clear up your confusion

Nobody is ready to say that he is Pakistani first. So Pakistani nationalism is a flimsy word.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Nobody is ready to say that he is Pakistani first. So Pakistani nationalism is a flimsy word.

And a gangu indian sanghi wouldn't say anything else................

 

[Cliftonite]

But my point is that Indian Muslims are as diverse racially as their Pakistani counterparts. Yes, there are minor differences in culture and these will grow.
Over the last 50 years Pakistan has been moving closer to West and Central Asia culturally will be different. North Indian Muslim Ashraf culture that closely resembled Pakistani neutral elite culture is under attack by Hindutva cultural purists . Indian Muslims will eventually succumb but a tiny fragment as expats will survive, So you are looking at 10% of 10% of the Indian Muslim population. Even the 10% expat population is merging into the Pakistani ( mostly Punjabi) ex-pat population though the Ashraf Indian Muslims are still snooty and don't care much for the Yusufzai's and Qizlbashes. The good part is the Karachi, Bahadurabad, Sharfabad, Mukka Chowk connection with Indian Muslims is gone for good. The 1970s was the turning point when isolated from Pakistan for 8 years from 1971-1979
a new crop of Indian Muslims came up who struggled to find their niche in Indian society rather than travel to Pakistan and tear up their Indian passports on arrival. So Indian Muslims joined the civil services, armed forces, police and all the good jobs that state services offered. Only a tiny fraction made it through despite discrimination and of course 90% of these were the Ashraf.
But they hadn't foreseen the Hindutva wave These Muslims are now regretting they didn't "hop over" when India Pakistan travel resumed in 1979.
Again, we have nothing to do with them. We should leave them to their fate. So here I agree with @PAKISTANFOREVER .

Agree overall except the premise that Indian Muslims are going to go extinct.

250 million Muslims aren't going to disappear. Muslim births in Kerala have already overtaken Hindu births since 2016. The Kerala-ite population that will be of voting age by 2030s will have more Muslims than Hindus.

Assam also counted 45% Muslim births as a percentage of total births in the 2011 census. West Bengal also had around 35% Muslim births. The figure must be much higher by now. If Bangladesh sinks, where do you think all their population go? The Meerut Rampur Moradabad belt also has around 45% Muslim population inching towards a majority albeit slower.

The Indian Muslim culture will change its face. The Ganga Jamuni Muslim culture will go extinct and be replaced with a more Bengali-Assamese indigenous culture. Or maybe one centered around more indigenous Malayali, Marathi, Bengali forms