Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[M8R]

I agree with Blain - Europe should have started 5th generation fighter project instead of wasting money on typhoon just for pride.Should have just bought some F-15's from US.Right now Eurofighter Does not have AESA/Meteor..etc.

 

[TOPGUN]

So therefore infact it was only two Pakistani pilots...in one f-16 D while the other D model and C model were flown by american pilots.. never the less very glad the birds are home can't wait to get them all.

 

[Jigs]

Jigs, Both CAESAR and Meteor integration are down the line (latter not before 2015, years after AIM-120D induction, and CAESAR is even farther off). If you speak about what current Typhoon operators are using, their BVR capabilities are in the same league as those of the blk-50/60 F-16s. In the future, F-16s would also be fielding AIM-120Ds which would give them even longer reach in terms of operational BVR AAMs. Most of the capabilities that are being envisaged for the Typhoon to fulfill its multirole, are already available with the newer blocks of F-16. Yes in certain areas Typhoon may have better options, however, overall, the difference isn't really that great.

Typhoon is a nice aircraft but about 15 years too late. This is something that many in Europe are saying themselves too. Typhoon has yet to attain a full MR capability and if (some countries are not even bothering with a MR configuration) and when it does, it will happen around the same time as some of these very nations will be receiving their F-35s.

There are too many jobs and too much European pride riding the Eurofighter program for it to be shelved now in view of what is available to Europe in the form of the F-35.

Like i said it is a maturing platform and is a better aircraft to the F-16 50/52. It will get better. Why do you think Turkey is considering it over our block 50/52+ aircraft along with the F-35. It is a better aircraft overall. Like i said the SU-30MKI is a better aircraft then the F-15 but USAF F-15 pilots were still able to get kills on it by exploiting it at times (Obviously the F-15C is better then the F-16 in A2A role) . The same goes for the F-16 so the F-16 is not the same nor better then the Typhoon. Plus eurofighter has AIM-120 integration which is a mute point when comparing it to USAF aircraft. Since they won't be seeing combat anyway with each other. F-16 is a great aircaft and can hold its own against 4.5 gen aircraft but it is inferior to the likes of the Typhoon and even more to that of the F-35.
In a low speed low altitude enviroment a F-18 can make a F-16 look silly. Yet Overall i would still pick the F-16 over the F-18 just like i would pick the Typhoon over the F-16 Which is why nations moving forward will have a mix of the F-35 and the typhoon as their top aircraft.

I am confused about your point are you saying the Typhoon is a failed aircraft and people should leave it and grab up F-16s and the rest go for F-35s ? If anything is a failed aircraft it is the Rafael for obvious reasons. Your point about the pilots scoring kills on Typhoons doesn't mean much.

By that logic it means the T-38 is a better aircraft then a F-22 because it scored a kill on it.

 

[sancho]

Jigs, Both CAESAR and Meteor integration are down the line (latter not before 2015, years after AIM-120D induction, and CAESAR is even farther off). If you speak about what current Typhoon operators are using, their BVR capabilities are in the same league as those of the blk-50/60 F-16s. In the future, F-16s would also be fielding AIM-120Ds which would give them even longer reach in terms of operational BVR AAMs.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? You said:

Despite Typhoon's Captor PD radars range, its standoff reach is the same as what is available to any aircraft flying an AIM-120C5 class BVRAAM.

Although the actual F16 and EF might have the same missiles, the EF radar is more capable than F16 block 50/52 for sure, possibly even equal to Block 60s. Not to mention that the EF should have the better RCS and all together the better BVR performance.


Also:

What they found out was that in low level profiles, the F-16 could handle the Typhoon well enough in close in combat, however at medium and higher altitudes, Typhoon's superior TWR helped.

So only because the F16 might have some chances on lower altitudes, you can't say it would be overall equal to EF in close combat. It's just the other way around, the only chance that an F16 has in A2A aginast the EF is a low level close combat!


I agree that the EF is too late, but in A2A there are not many fighters that are close to it. Where it lacks are multi role capabilities, no doubt about that and that's why it lost nearly all competitions.

 

[owais.usmani]

 

[Super Hornet]

 

[Super Hornet]

 

[air marshal]

 

[blain2]

Like i said it is a maturing platform and is a better aircraft to the F-16 50/52. It will get better.

Given money and time to any platform, it is bound to get better. The point of my post is that countries looking to make a decision about the next generation MR platform will either go for those that are already fully MR (F-16 C/D/E/F, F/A-18 etc or even Rafale) or will wait out for the F-35 (if they have appropriate relations with the US). In reality the Typhoon is essentially a lame duck along with the Rafale. Its a good aircraft, but one with capabilities that should have arrived at the beginning of this decade and not at the end when the market will slowly be flooded with 5th gen aircraft). When Air Forces purchase the current generation F-16s, they are paying a lot less than the Typhoon and are getting full MR capability with the Vipers. This is not so with the Typhoon. Countries that are operating the type had committed to do so thus they have them in their inventory albeit with massively reduced orders (consider RAF, Luftwaffe etc. on how they have reduced their orders for the type).

Why do you think Turkey is considering it over our block 50/52+ aircraft along with the F-35. It is a better aircraft overall.

How about diversification or ToT? Technical speak aside, there are other considerations at play here as well which include politics (over dependence on US weapon systems for an increasingly assertive Turkish foreign policy may be a driver for this consideration). Also its a better aircraft by what margin? Are we saying that missions that Typhoon can fulfill cannot be taken up by F-16 C/D/E/Fs?

Like i said the SU-30MKI is a better aircraft then the F-15 but USAF F-15 pilots were still able to get kills on it by exploiting it at times (Obviously the F-15C is better then the F-16 in A2A role) .

Claiming one to be better than the other is an opinion. Not something factual. The USAF pilots will swear by their F-15s. Also F-15C is not better than the F-16 in A2A. I have chatted with USAF Pilots who have flown F-16s against the F-15s and they tell you right off that in close in combat, F-16s can more than hold their own against all of the legacy line up of USAF and USN fighters (this includes F-15s, F/A-18s and even the F-14s when the Vipers have flown against the Tomcats).

The idea of the F-15 is to take advantage of its long range radar and take shots with the AIM-120 to whittle down the opponent's numbers. Once close in, the F-15s are pretty good, but the F-16 with its smaller size is even better. You can even see references to this at F-16.net where there are posts by folks who have flown DACT against the F-15s.

The same goes for the F-16 so the F-16 is not the same nor better then the Typhoon. Plus eurofighter has AIM-120 integration which is a mute point when comparing it to USAF aircraft.

No its not. Currently the RAF Typhoons are flying with AIM-120Bs (as are the Italian ones). None of the in-service Typhoons are integrated with AIM-120Cs whereas all F-16 Blk-50/52s are fully capable of AIM-120Cs. Just last month, three Luftwaffe Typhoons were sent to Scottland to undergo AIM-120C integration work and test firing. So even on this count, while one can say the Typhoons are AIM-120 capable, they are not at the same level as that of F-16s/F-15s. The Meteor integration is 5 years out.

Since they won't be seeing combat anyway with each other. F-16 is a great aircaft and can hold its own against 4.5 gen aircraft but it is inferior to the likes of the Typhoon and even more to that of the F-35.
In a low speed low altitude enviroment a F-18 can make a F-16 look silly. Yet Overall i would still pick the F-16 over the F-18 just like i would pick the Typhoon over the F-16 Which is why nations moving forward will have a mix of the F-35 and the typhoon as their top aircraft.

Typhoon is a great aircraft, but in its niche area. Its not an all-rounder, it certainly has a lot of integration work ahead of it and my primary point is that by the time all of this comes together for the Typhoon, so many countries will already be operating a type from the next generation.

To your point about Typhoon and F-35, I will put my money on it that aside from the NATO Airforces that have already committed to both, not many others will go for Typhoon if they are already in line to acquire the F-35.

I am confused about your point are you saying the Typhoon is a failed aircraft and people should leave it and grab up F-16s and the rest go for F-35s ? If anything is a failed aircraft it is the Rafael for obvious reasons. Your point about the pilots scoring kills on Typhoons doesn't mean much.

My point is a simple one, given the advertised capabilities and the fact that they are yet to fully integrate these advertised capabilities, the Typhoon is an aircraft which is too late. The F-35 will eat a significant chunk out of the Typhoon and Rafale market for this very reason. The F-16 and F/A-18 have their sweet spot because most countries buying them are getting the full capabilities suite in time and at a cost which is much cheaper than that of the Typhoon (this is more so the case with F-16).

The point about pilot scoring kills was to drive home a point from a neutral source (Italians who fly both types). And that point was that as old as the F-16 blk15s are, they can still do alright in certain flight regimes against the Typhoon even when not equipped with newer avionics like JHMCS which is bound to increase the effectiveness of the Viper against the Typhoon. The USAF is back in Spain to take on their Typhoons with F-15s equipped with JHMCS/AIM-9x since they got spanked by the Spaniards without these last year. Had the Typhoon been so one-sided, the USAF would have decided not to have another go. So this is all relative.

YouTube- F-22 Raptor VS T-38 Talon By that logic it means the T-38 is a better aircraft then a F-22 because it scored a kill on it.

Good find, but certainly not the point I was trying to make.

 

[blain2]

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? You said:

I was being generous when I said that they have equal BVR capabilities. The fact is as above. The latest that Typhoons have is AIM-120B integration. The F-16s are already flying with AIM-120C5s which provide greater range and better terminal guidance.

Although the actual F16 and EF might have the same missiles, the EF radar is more capable than F16 block 50/52 for sure, possibly even equal to Block 60s. Not to mention that the EF should have the better RCS and all together the better BVR performance.

Currently at least, the Typhoon does not even use the same BVR AAMs as those available to blks 50/60 F-16s. Secondly, APG-68 has a pretty decent range that is overlooked by folks. The range of the radars in both cases exceeds the theoretical range of the BVR AAMs in question. So this is a moot point.

Also:



So only because the F16 might have some chances on lower altitudes, you can't say it would be overall equal to EF in close combat. It's just the other way around, the only chance that an F16 has in A2A aginast the EF is a low level close combat!

Yes but these Italian aircraft were older blk-15s with less powerful engines and no JHMCS and HOBS AAMs like the AIM-9x. Lack of energy and less TWR is helped by being able to take a shot against an adversary with higher thrust and maneuverability from various angles. The Italians did not have that, however JHMCS would afford this capability.

I agree that the EF is too late, but in A2A there are not many fighters that are close to it. Where it lacks are multi role capabilities, no doubt about that and that's why it lost nearly all competitions.

But therein lies its Achilles heal. Nobody wants a very expensive dedicated air superiority fighter that does not offer any significant 5th generation advantages. Air Forces want to cut back on opex if the initial capex allows them an aircraft that not only ensures future investment protection, but also allows robust multirole capability.

My intention is not to put down Typhoon as a bad aircraft. Its beautiful, potent (in some very specific roles), expensive yet the biggest issue is that it claims to offer (now and in the future) what other aircraft already have.

 

[umair86]

I was being generous when I said that they have equal BVR capabilities. The fact is as above. The latest that Typhoons have is AIM-120B integration. The F-16s are already flying with AIM-120C5s which provide greater range and better terminal guidance.



Currently at least, the Typhoon does not even use the same BVR AAMs as those available to blks 50/60 F-16s. Secondly, APG-68 has a pretty decent range that is overlooked by folks. The range of the radars in both cases exceeds the theoretical range of the BVR AAMs in question. So this is a moot point.




Yes but these Italian aircraft were older blk-15s with less powerful engines and no JHMCS and HOBS AAMs like the AIM-9x. Lack of energy and less TWR is helped by being able to take a shot against an adversary with higher thrust and maneuverability from various angles. The Italians did not have that, however JHMCS would afford this capability.



But therein lies its Achilles heal. Nobody wants a very expensive dedicated air superiority fighter that does not offer any significant 5th generation advantages. Air Forces want to cut back on opex if the initial capex allows them an aircraft that not only ensures future investment protection, but also allows robust multirole capability.

My intention is not to put down Typhoon as a bad aircraft. Its beautiful, potent (in some very specific roles), expensive yet the biggest issue is that it claims to offer (now and in the future) what other aircraft already have.

Italian Falcons are Blk 15 ADF Blk 15 enjoys the best TWR of any falcon Block.

 

[blain2]

Italian Falcons are Blk 15 ADF Blk 15 enjoys the best TWR of any falcon Block.

I believe this is true however Typhoon's TWR is better.

 

[Dr sim]

Going through this thread i am just wondering why is pakistan buying F-16 block 52 coz (until they r upgraded to block 60) they cant handle Su-30 MKI their most likely adversary.And by the time they will be upgraded to block 60 india will have PAK FGFA which is a generation ahead.
So my question is why not save the hard earned money and buy something technically advanced from China, in future(J XX)?

 

[owcc]

F16 bl 52 is a beautiful fighter but its soon going to be a geeneration behind in technology in the coming decade.It is a good stopgap measure for a defensive need but it should not be an end of force modernization itself.

 

[MastanKhan]

Going through this thread i am just wondering why is pakistan buying F-16 block 52 coz (until they r upgraded to block 60) they cant handle Su-30 MKI their most likely adversary.And by the time they will be upgraded to block 60 india will have PAK FGFA which is a generation ahead.
So my question is why not save the hard earned money and buy something technically advanced from China, in future(J XX)?

Hi,

That is debatable if the Blk 52 can out do the su 30----and there is no doubt that it will. The blk 52 is good for the next ten years---it is just the numbers that we need to add up on.