Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Shabi1]

Hi,

WTF---where did turkey get the magic bullet from---.

Pakistan is way ahead of Turkey in fighter aircraft manufacture---. We have over a 100 inducted aircraft to prove that---.

Our alliance with china is far advanced---why do we need to step back to join hands with Turkey on a project that is far back---.

Why waste time with Turkey and invest our money---when china is way ahead and spending its money on the project---.

Making a fighter jet from scratch does put Pakistan ahead of Turkey but in terms of F-16s since they had license production capability and overhaul infrastructure from US. TUSAS is ahead as a component manufacturer and systems integrator since it had favorable initial US assistance. Same reason PAF selected TUSAS to carry out upgrades on its own F-16s.

Something Pakistan couldn't attempt since it was under sanctions for a considerable time.

Turkey is upgrading it's own F-16s to fire the Meteor.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/07/17/turkish-f-16-jets-to-get-structural-upgrades/

And they are working on its own F-16V style upgrade for future F-16 upgrade tenders. Picture of a Aselsan AESA radar in the works.

Expected timeline for AESA 2020

F-16 Özgür cockpit

It is pretty safe to assume PAF will again employ Turkish assistance for future F-16 upgrades.

 

[Khaqan Humayun]

My Dear and Beloved Pakistani,

We must understand that USA will not provide us more F-16 until they start a new war with the help of Pakistan. 1st They gave us F-16 during Russian Afghan war then they stopped.

2nd After 9/11 and see the result now.

Will you wait for a new war?

The world is an open market with the help of our friend countries China, France, Turkey, Germany Sweden including Russia we can make a copy of F-16 or a new batter jet than F-16.

(Copy to fulfill the need of PAF)

Learn from China they copy Russian jets to fulfill their need and save massive amount for their Nation.

USA copied jets from Russia (Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 and made Saber Jets).

Its not as if the f-16 is a sitting duck. The PAFs block 52+ has one of best EW packages available from the US. It will hold its own against MKI. Additionally itnis flying under the watch of the Erieyes.

We must understand that USA will not provide us more F-16 until they start a new war with the help of Pakistan. 1st They gave us F-16 during Russian Afghan war then they stopped.

2nd After 9/11 and see the result now.

Will you wait for a new war?

The world is an open market with the help of our friend countries China, France, Turkey, Germany Sweden including Russia we can make a copy of F-16 or a new batter jet than F-16.

(Copy to fulfill the need of PAF)

Learn from China they copy Russian jets to fulfill their need and save massive amount for their Nation.

USA copied jets from Russia (Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 and made Saber Jets).

 

[Tank131]

My Dear and Beloved Pakistani,

We must understand that USA will not provide us more F-16 until they start a new war with the help of Pakistan. 1st They gave us F-16 during Russian Afghan war then they stopped.

2nd After 9/11 and see the result now.

Will you wait for a new war?

The world is an open market with the help of our friend countries China, France, Turkey, Germany Sweden including Russia we can make a copy of F-16 or a new batter jet than F-16.

(Copy to fulfill the need of PAF)

Learn from China they copy Russian jets to fulfill their need and save massive amount for their Nation.

USA copied jets from Russia (Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 and made Saber Jets).



We must understand that USA will not provide us more F-16 until they start a new war with the help of Pakistan. 1st They gave us F-16 during Russian Afghan war then they stopped.

2nd After 9/11 and see the result now.

Will you wait for a new war?

The world is an open market with the help of our friend countries China, France, Turkey, Germany Sweden including Russia we can make a copy of F-16 or a new batter jet than F-16.

(Copy to fulfill the need of PAF)

Learn from China they copy Russian jets to fulfill their need and save massive amount for their Nation.

USA copied jets from Russia (Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 and made Saber Jets).

What does that have to do with what I said. The point is the F-16 has good EW capabilities. I was not advocating for chasing after more of them.

 

[salman-1]

How clumsy the trump may be, but he is not a warrior mind like Bush family. He has started pulling Us troops from where ever he can e.g is Syria and Afghanistan. He will do only trade war and sanctions for he thinks his country can benefit. I don't think Americans will have any war in his tenure atleast.

 

[Shabi1]

My Dear and Beloved Pakistani,

We must understand that USA will not provide us more F-16 until they start a new war with the help of Pakistan. 1st They gave us F-16 during Russian Afghan war then they stopped.

2nd After 9/11 and see the result now.

Will you wait for a new war?

The world is an open market with the help of our friend countries China, France, Turkey, Germany Sweden including Russia we can make a copy of F-16 or a new batter jet than F-16.

(Copy to fulfill the need of PAF)

Learn from China they copy Russian jets to fulfill their need and save massive amount for their Nation.

USA copied jets from Russia (Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 and made Saber Jets).



We must understand that USA will not provide us more F-16 until they start a new war with the help of Pakistan. 1st They gave us F-16 during Russian Afghan war then they stopped.

2nd After 9/11 and see the result now.

Will you wait for a new war?

The world is an open market with the help of our friend countries China, France, Turkey, Germany Sweden including Russia we can make a copy of F-16 or a new batter jet than F-16.

(Copy to fulfill the need of PAF)

Learn from China they copy Russian jets to fulfill their need and save massive amount for their Nation.

USA copied jets from Russia (Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 and made Saber Jets).

We don't need more F-16s, just need to keep the existing ones airworthy and extend their lives till they can be replaced with Turkish upgrades.

 

[wulff]

I dont think that we can say china is behind Turkey in EW Tech. Rather, China is probably number 3 or 4 on thr list of leaders in realm which also include France, Israel, and of course, the US. In fact, their progress in electronics has been shocking to a great extent and their development of a EW variant of the J-16 (the J-16D) which is akin to the EA-18G growler has caused a great deal of concern in the Pacific region.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...raft-might-have-terrifying-new-military-23427

The problem isn't that China is behind the "West". It is, but not as much as is made out to be. The problem really is what level of tech China has made available for export. THAT is what is far behind the level of what the "west" exports. China still makes available for Pakistan only such equipment which is cleared for export by the PLA. The monkeyed versions, if you prefer. Had Pakistan had the foresight like the Israelis do with America, it would have long ago secured an agreement whereby China would release to Pakistan a level of technology that is just one notch below what the PLA has. Something that is guaranteed to be much more advanced than what is cleared for export by china otherwise.

Even better, Pakistan should have made an agreement whereby the Pakistan Military would have the facility to directly approach Chinese Military Industrial SOEs to design and develop systems for it, without going through the chinese government. For example, PAF could approach LETRI to develop for them a ramjet based bvraam. According to reports, the ramjet engine tech for this missile has already been developed by China during the development of PL-15. It can give Pakistan a meteor class missile from China. The PLAAF may not have cleared the PL-15 for export, but the competitor missile that lost could be cleared for Pakistan. If only the government would negotiate with the Chinese government to allow Pakistan to acquire tech that is deemed too sensitive for export but not operationalized by the PLA. Thats the fruit an weather strategic partnership should give to this country.

18 Block-52s of Pakistan Air Force versus 272 MKi Flankers of indian Air Force. Yeah they definitely hold their own against such overwhelming odds, wouldn't they!! Quality of fighter pilot training goes only so far. The technology edge went out the window when the indians went for Flankers with Western avionics. They already had a numerical superiority against us in any case. Now we are entirely comfortable with just 18 Block-52s to take on an armada of Flankers. Simply splendid!!

Don't get me wrong brother, but it is one thing to stay positive and confident in the face of overwhelming odds. And it is another to not confront the elephant in the room. Block-52s are just dandy, but let's leave it at that, shall we?! It is time for Pakistan Air Force to move on from their romance with the F-16s. Because honestly speaking this aircraft has done nothing but give Pakistan grief from get go. F-16s Achilles heel is "SANCTIONS" ... Period!!!! It is time for us to take a 9mm and shot the mentality of seeking out western tech, in the friggin face. Unless there is a full proof contingency in place, whereby Pakistan military has sufficient stockpile of spares for any and all western hardware. There is no point, no value and no reason to discuss any western military hardware purchase. Even if it is via a "Muslim Brother Country" (yeah right!!!) Turkey. Because we have seen already what Pakistan faces the moment they inked a deal for 30 T-129 Atak helos. Now they're scrambling to find alternative engines for the dam thing to fly. I picture us already taking a shot gun and shooting ourselves in the right foot (Block-52s), then we take the shot gun and shoot ourselves in the left foot (T-129s & Milgems). Yeah I get, western tech is so great, so super awesome and is incomparable to anything else, anyone else is developing. But it's not, look the Chinese with J-20s, Y-20s, Type-55s, CV-17s and the Russians with their super weapons Avanguard HGV, Burevestnik (nuke power CM), Poseidon (nuke powered torpedo), Sarmat (ultra long range ICBM). So West is NOT the end all, be all, cure all.

The single most pivotal decision made by Pakistan Air Force is to stay on course with the development of the JF-17 Thunders. Now, when Block-lll Thunders roll out with AESA radars, it would give Pakistan Air Force a capability that not even the great and awesome Block-52s don't give us. And why is AESA such a big deal? Well, since people generally (like blind bats) watch the West so very closely ... a decade ago, the USAF leadership took the decision to upgrade their F-15 fleet and install AESA radars on as many of them as they possibly can. The reason why they did that, was to compensate for the miniscule fleet Raptors that the US Govt allowed them to field (187 of them). By installing more AESA radars on their F-15s (46 year old aircraft btw), the USAF hopes to counter RuAF & PLAAF, and their Gen-4++ fighters and Gen-5 stealth jets. For Pakistan Air Force, AESA capability couldn't come any sooner. As records show, that is what Pakistan Air Force was after the french for, before those fugly frogs left us high n dry for the indian MMRCA deal. So you see my dear brother, Block-52s maybe all that, but our Block-llls is what I have more faith in.

Finally, someone has the guts to call out the elephant in the room. Three cheers to you my friend. Carry on and may someone in the right place see the mortal danger that has been ignored so long by those who prefer to bury their heads in the sand

 

[MastanKhan]

The problem isn't that China is behind the "West". It is, but not as much as is made out to be. The problem really is what level of tech China has made available for export. THAT is what is far behind the level of what the "west" exports. China still makes available for Pakistan only such equipment which is cleared for export by the PLA. The monkeyed versions, if you prefer. Had Pakistan had the foresight like the Israelis do with America, it would have long ago secured an agreement whereby China would release to Pakistan a level of technology that is just one notch below what the PLA has. Something that is guaranteed to be much more advanced than what is cleared for export by china otherwise.

Even better, Pakistan should have made an agreement whereby the Pakistan Military would have the facility to directly approach Chinese Military Industrial SOEs to design and develop systems for it, without going through the chinese government. For example, PAF could approach LETRI to develop for them a ramjet based bvraam. According to reports, the ramjet engine tech for this missile has already been developed by China during the development of PL-15. It can give Pakistan a meteor class missile from China. The PLAAF may not have cleared the PL-15 for export, but the competitor missile that lost could be cleared for Pakistan. If only the government would negotiate with the Chinese government to allow Pakistan to acquire tech that is deemed too sensitive for export but not operationalized by the PLA. Thats the fruit an weather strategic partnership should give to this country.



Finally, someone has the guts to call out the elephant in the room. Three cheers to you my friend. Carry on and may someone in the right place see the mortal danger that has been ignored so long by those who prefer to bury their heads in the sand

Hi,

Thank you for an excellent post---.

 

[MastanKhan]

18 Block-52s of Pakistan Air Force versus 272 MKi Flankers of indian Air Force. Yeah they definitely hold their own against such overwhelming odds, wouldn't they!! Quality of fighter pilot training goes only so far. The technology edge went out the window when the indians went for Flankers with Western avionics. They already had a numerical superiority against us in any case. Now we are entirely comfortable with just 18 Block-52s to take on an armada of Flankers. Simply splendid!!

Don't get me wrong brother, but it is one thing to stay positive and confident in the face of overwhelming odds. And it is another to not confront the elephant in the room. Block-52s are just dandy, but let's leave it at that, shall we?! It is time for Pakistan Air Force to move on from their romance with the F-16s. Because honestly speaking this aircraft has done nothing but give Pakistan grief from get go. F-16s Achilles heel is "SANCTIONS" ... Period!!!! It is time for us to take a 9mm and shot the mentality of seeking out western tech, in the friggin face. Unless there is a full proof contingency in place, whereby Pakistan military has sufficient stockpile of spares for any and all western hardware. There is no point, no value and no reason to discuss any western military hardware purchase. Even if it is via a "Muslim Brother Country" (yeah right!!!) Turkey. Because we have seen already what Pakistan faces the moment they inked a deal for 30 T-129 Atak helos. Now they're scrambling to find alternative engines for the dam thing to fly. I picture us already taking a shot gun and shooting ourselves in the right foot (Block-52s), then we take the shot gun and shoot ourselves in the left foot (T-129s & Milgems). Yeah I get, western tech is so great, so super awesome and is incomparable to anything else, anyone else is developing. But it's not, look the Chinese with J-20s, Y-20s, Type-55s, CV-17s and the Russians with their super weapons Avanguard HGV, Burevestnik (nuke power CM), Poseidon (nuke powered torpedo), Sarmat (ultra long range ICBM). So West is NOT the end all, be all, cure all.

The single most pivotal decision made by Pakistan Air Force is to stay on course with the development of the JF-17 Thunders. Now, when Block-lll Thunders roll out with AESA radars, it would give Pakistan Air Force a capability that not even the great and awesome Block-52s don't give us. And why is AESA such a big deal? Well, since people generally (like blind bats) watch the West so very closely ... a decade ago, the USAF leadership took the decision to upgrade their F-15 fleet and install AESA radars on as many of them as they possibly can. The reason why they did that, was to compensate for the miniscule fleet Raptors that the US Govt allowed them to field (187 of them). By installing more AESA radars on their F-15s (46 year old aircraft btw), the USAF hopes to counter RuAF & PLAAF, and their Gen-4++ fighters and Gen-5 stealth jets. For Pakistan Air Force, AESA capability couldn't come any sooner. As records show, that is what Pakistan Air Force was after the french for, before those fugly frogs left us high n dry for the indian MMRCA deal. So you see my dear brother, Block-52s maybe all that, but our Block-llls is what I have more faith in.

Hi,

thank you for an excellent post---.

The quality of a fighter pilot will only go so far---when the battle is not only between two pilots but a battle management system.

Secondly---the aircraft's electronics by themselves will play the most crucial role in the battle---they will direct and assist the pilot to make the right choices---.

So---it is not as simple as the " man behind the machine " motto anymore---.

 

[cabatli_53]

the aircraft's electronics by themselves will play the most crucial role in the battle---they will direct and assist the pilot to make the right choices

No matter How difficult but Airframes can be produced in any case. It is electronics, avionics, mission computer, radar, optic performance, communication devices, electronic countermeasure sensors, softwares, fusion center and missile payload make flying aerodynamic metalic boxes superior to others and I believe It is the area “West” is way ahead of other aircraft manufacturers from East. Noone can prove How superior/inferior they are excluding some reasonings in forum pages but I think It will be understood when A serious conflict clicked the door and aircrafts starts to make agressive maneouvrings to protect the future of their nations so It is not important How similar fuselages were designed or How handsome aircrafts were produced or How well they have flown on parades. The scores of air conflicts will be directly related with electronic boxes and sensor generations. That is the reason Western manufacturers do not even allow any “other” countries to screw the bolts of aircrafts. When they exported those strategic systems, Requesting guarantees not to share any serious information with any other states, nor allowing to perform a joint exercise with “hostile” aircrafts. With this way, They keep those aircrafts like a secret box technically not to awaken enemy and this secret box will be opened when It is needed most.

 

[Nasr]

No matter How difficult but Airframes can be produced in any case. It is electronics, avionics, mission computer, radar, optic performance, communication devices, electronic countermeasure sensors, softwares, fusion center and missile payload make flying aerodynamic metalic boxes superior to others and I believe It is the area “West” is way ahead of other aircraft manufacturers from East. Noone can prove How superior/inferior they are but I think It will be understood when A serious conflict clicked the door and aircrafts starts to make agressive maneouvrings to protect the future of their nations. That is the reason Western manufacturers do not even allow any “other” countries to screw the bolts of aircrafts. When they exported those strategic systems, Requesting guarantees not to share any serious information with any other states, nor allowing to perform a joint exercise with “hostile” aircrafts.

Well that boat sailed a long time ago when the Chinese and Pakistanis collaborated on the F-16s. Also was the case when the Australians cracked the code on the F/A-18Cs. China and Russia are catching, but more than that, they have begun to surpass America and the West in some areas. Whether people like to wake up and smell the coffee or not, the reality is that America's preeminence is fading. Economically and technologically.

 

[cabatli_53]

Well that boat sailed a long time ago when the Chinese and Pakistanis collaborated on the F-16s. Also was the case when the Australians cracked the code on the F/A-18Cs. China and Russia are catching, but more than that, they have begun to surpass America and the West in some areas. Whether people like to wake up and smell the coffee or not, the reality is that America's preeminence is fading. Economically and technologically.

“Catching” and even “Surpass” words seems good on your words but having a technical data from field to prove this claim for aircrafts?

 

[Nasr]

“Catching” and even “Surpass” words seems good on your words but having a technical data from field to prove this claim for aircrafts?

Would really say that aircraft would really matter when Avanguards zip through the stratosphere at Mach-20. Or when DF-21s approach U.S aircraft carriers at Mach-5.

But that's alright, Russia's Izdeliye-30 engines give the Su-57s the edge, as do WS-15s for China. Both countries have been making great strides in aviation. As for countries buying military hardware, like Pakistan is. My only advice is, do not buy Western military hardware UNLESS you have figured out a way to stockpile critical spare parts (including engines), as well as establish proper MRO facilities, which guarantees immunity from sanctions which will definitely hit when a country goes to war. If you can "defang" the snake, then sure keep it and/or buy more. But it is contrived stupidity to keep buying Western military hardware without contingencies in place.

 

[cabatli_53]

Would really say that aircraft would really matter when Avanguards zip through the stratosphere at Mach-20. Or when DF-21s approach U.S aircraft carriers at Mach-5.

But that's alright, Russia's Izdeliye-30 engines give the Su-57s the edge, as do WS-15s for China. Both countries have been making great strides in aviation. As for countries buying military hardware, like Pakistan is. My only advice is, do not buy Western military hardware UNLESS you have figured out a way to stockpile critical spare parts (including engines), as well as establish proper MRO facilities, which guarantees immunity from sanctions which will definitely hit when a country goes to war. If you can "defang" the snake, then sure keep it and/or buy more. But it is contrived stupidity to keep buying Western military hardware without contingencies in place.

Which part of your words prove that - China and Russia catched and even surpassed US electronic, avionic and sensor technology to declare Eastern aircrafts superior to US ? Sanctions are a different subjects. No need to talk gas turbine engine technology as well.

 

[Nasr]

Which part of your words prove that - China and Russia catched and even surpassed US electronic, avionic and sensor technology to declare Eastern aircrafts superior to US ? Sanctions are a different subjects. No need to talk gas turbine engine technology as well.

When I said that Russia and China have caught up or surpassed the West, I meant in certain technologies they have. Like Hypersonic GVs, nuclear power plant miniaturization and so on. In aircraft tech, China and Russia have come far enough that today, both countries are on the cusp of fielding Stealth fighters. Which other country besides America, has their own Stealth Fighter program and are on the verge of fielding fully operational aircraft?

As for your question, not even you can prove American tech is superior to China or Russia. So please don't waste both our times with such questions.

 

[MastanKhan]

As for your question, not even you can prove American tech is superior to China or Russia. So please don't waste both our times with such questions.

Hi,

It is simply not about the stealth---but what is behind that stealth package that is the back breaker---.

There is a reason that americans are strutting around---they want to test their newer weapons on a more capable enemy than Iraq---many times more capable---.

Why have the russians kept their mouths shut----because they know that they are no match for the americans---.

The chinese are getting impatient---because they have amassed better and capable weapons---but until and unless the chinese don't have 10 aircraft carriers and 400 J20's +++ aircraft---they just need to keep their heads down and keep on building---.