Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[denel]

Two things
- We currently lack quality products and manufacturing technologies
- And we lack in R&D

so our current possible avenue for success in engineering sector(specially related to defence) is Integration we can not shy away from this just because of difficulties, we have to address our NEEDS (actually necessities) in TIMELY and AFFORDABLE manners within existing resources.

Yes agreed, as I pointed out before this needs to be nurtured as part of R&D mindset within universities. As good casing point as we have CPUT/Stellenbosch with cubesat/nanosat development - latest one went into orbit 2 days ago. CPUT is a very small campus but they have gotten their engineering programs geared towards this work.

 

[MastanKhan]

Yes diversification but you are not seeing the challenge of integration of systems/sub-systems between 2 opposing parties.

Hi,

@denel --- you talk about 'integration' and they have no understanding of what is at stake---.

The problem over here is---that they have learnt nothing about 'integration' from the experience of the JF17---.

Paf used to claim that the aircraft would be ready and going in a couple of years---. It is close to 14 years and still integration problems are lingering---.

Young pakistanis are still living in the six shooter / quick draw mode---the stories that they had heard from their elders---you see---you position---you shoot---.

 

[denel]

Hi,

@denel --- you talk about 'integration' and they have no understanding of what is at stake---.

The problem over here is---that they have learnt nothing about 'integration' from the experience of the JF17---.

Paf used to claim that the aircraft would be ready and going in a couple of years---. It is close to 14 years and still integration problems are lingering---.

Young pakistanis are still living in the six shooter / quick draw mode---the stories that they had heard from their elders---you see---you position---you shoot---.

Yes absolutely. There are completely two different mindsets, methodologies, standards (if any), software design, verification, proof checkers etc - i am not being negative but many people are not realising what you need. You need excellent runway of dedicated professors who will mould students in their thoughts and then undergo apprenticeship to be allowing to undertake such marathon ventures; let alone sit between two different cultures to decipher and try to make them work.

Even with Jf-17, just with the change over of the radar, has anyone done the entire exercise to completely take end to end how the new radar would be working, its microcode etc and then working forward to how it would interface. Where are the professors/academic engineers on this side from Pak side (I mean outside PAF - they are not engineers or architects) in this entire venture. It is a shame as by this time one expects to have entire departments supporting in various capacities up to simulation of various design parameters of the sub-systems. Was that outsourced to china? It looks like it.

You know the difference when we have CPUT/Univ of Stellenbosch departments with their students working on new generation of Cubes/microsatellites which are going up into the sky; one set just went up 2 days back. Could this not be done in Pak? Yes it can but there is this stupid fallacy that this is the realm of defence area - wrong.

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi,

@denel --- you talk about 'integration' and they have no understanding of what is at stake---.

The problem over here is---that they have learnt nothing about 'integration' from the experience of the JF17---.

Paf used to claim that the aircraft would be ready and going in a couple of years---. It is close to 14 years and still integration problems are lingering---.

Young pakistanis are still living in the six shooter / quick draw mode---the stories that they had heard from their elders---you see---you position---you shoot---.

Yes absolutely. There are completely two different mindsets, methodologies, standards (if any), software design, verification, proof checkers etc - i am not being negative but many people are not realising what you need. You need excellent runway of dedicated professors who will mould students in their thoughts and then undergo apprenticeship to be allowing to undertake such marathon ventures; let alone sit between two different cultures to decipher and try to make them work.

Even with Jf-17, just with the change over of the radar, has anyone done the entire exercise to completely take end to end how the new radar would be working, its microcode etc and then working forward to how it would interface. Where are the professors/academic engineers on this side from Pak side (I mean outside PAF - they are not engineers or architects) in this entire venture. It is a shame as by this time one expects to have entire departments supporting in various capacities up to simulation of various design parameters of the sub-systems. Was that outsourced to china? It looks like it.

You know the difference when we have CPUT/Univ of Stellenbosch departments with their students working on new generation of Cubes/microsatellites which are going up into the sky; one set just went up 2 days back. Could this not be done in Pak? Yes it can but there is this stupid fallacy that this is the realm of defence area - wrong.

First of all, there is now such a thing as PAF Vision 2047. For working with Turkey, we have the luxury of time. Second, you are ignoring the level of support that Turks have provided to us. Just recently we have signed an MoU for complete ToT of Milgem corvettes. We shall not be alone in this integration. Another case in point is the ASELPOD. Moving forward, do you think PAF will not integrate Turkish BVRs on Thunder? Already there is talk of integrating SOM for Azeri Thunders. This integration expertise can be applied to other projects as well. So please, spare us the condescending attitude.

But partnering with Turkey opens another avenue. Learning manufacturing techniques from Turkey such as materials, welds, joining etc and applying them to Thunders or other projects. Many years ago, there was an interview of K-8s lead designer who noted that Egypt's manufacturing techniques for K-8 is superior to China. So yes, collaboration with Turkey will have many benefits, Insha Allah.

 

[HRK]

for those who are questioning the idea of integration under the notion of flawed understanding of young Pakistani mindset need to see few PAF projects like

- Project Horizon under which AWAC from two different vendors from east and west were inducted and their integration
- Project Vision
- Integration of All Radar of Pakistan consist of radars both from eastern and western vendors under one network
- Developing of link-17
- Different subsystems of western origin in JF-17 like RWR, ALQ-500P etc

therefore I would request them to post their ideas based on realities rather than flawed understanding

 

[Raider 21]

Hi,

@denel --- you talk about 'integration' and they have no understanding of what is at stake---.

The problem over here is---that they have learnt nothing about 'integration' from the experience of the JF17---.

Paf used to claim that the aircraft would be ready and going in a couple of years---. It is close to 14 years and still integration problems are lingering---.

Young pakistanis are still living in the six shooter / quick draw mode---the stories that they had heard from their elders---you see---you position---you shoot---.

I saw 2 squadrons with JF-17s recently. Mastan you have little knowledge about it. Old men like you developed an inexperienced hate. Integration is increasing exponentially.

 

[denel]

I saw 2 squadrons with JF-17s recently. Mastan you have little knowledge about it. Old men like you developed an inexperienced hate. Integration is increasing exponentially.

i am speaking about internal systems development and integration vs external weapons integration. these are completely different things.

 

[Raider 21]

i am speaking about internal systems development and integration vs external weapons integration. these are completely different things.

And I meant it in both categories.

 

[Maxpane]

interesting discussion

 

[monitor]

F-16 Gear in transit

 

[MastanKhan]

I saw 2 squadrons with JF-17s recently. Mastan you have little knowledge about it. Old men like you developed an inexperienced hate. Integration is increasing exponentially.

Hi,

I am sure you did not understand what I was saying---.

The importance of the difficulty of the task of integration must be understood before jumping from one venture to the other---. It is not a cake walk---.

 

[Raider 21]

Hi,

I am sure you did not understand what I was saying---.

The importance of the difficulty of the task of integration must be understood before jumping from one venture to the other---. It is not a cake walk---.

I misread it earlier. Apologies but sometimes I use my mobile.

 

[Nasr]

First of all, there is now such a thing as PAF Vision 2047. For working with Turkey, we have the luxury of time. Second, you are ignoring the level of support that Turks have provided to us. Just recently we have signed an MoU for complete ToT of Milgem corvettes. We shall not be alone in this integration. Another case in point is the ASELPOD. Moving forward, do you think PAF will not integrate Turkish BVRs on Thunder? Already there is talk of integrating SOM for Azeri Thunders. This integration expertise can be applied to other projects as well. So please, spare us the condescending attitude.

But partnering with Turkey opens another avenue. Learning manufacturing techniques from Turkey such as materials, welds, joining etc and applying them to Thunders or other projects. Many years ago, there was an interview of K-8s lead designer who noted that Egypt's manufacturing techniques for K-8 is superior to China. So yes, collaboration with Turkey will have many benefits, Insha Allah.

Umm forgive me but doesn't China have greater manufacturing techniques, level of technology being far advance than Turkey? And in the same breath, isn't China, Pakistan's "Premier Ally"? Then why is it that Pakistan hasn't by default approached China on such matters? Is that we have made it a habit of thinking that Chinese have inferior technology, whereas the world has come to understand and acknowledge China's prowess in technology. China has surpassed the rest of the world in Nuclear Power technology with likes of Pebble Bed reactors and fast breeder reactors.

In fact, if we were to look at the period between 2005-2018, had we considered replacing or substituting F-16s with J-10s at the time, even if it were technology information and exchange. Then today Pakistan Air Force would have been in a stronger position to go for or already have J-10CEs (who knows, we would've already have A ESA by now). Granted if funds were available, but still, I don't think we treat China with greater status of being our premier ally, than we ought to.

 

[MastanKhan]

Umm forgive me but doesn't China have greater manufacturing techniques, level of technology being far advance than Turkey? And in the same breath, isn't China, Pakistan's "Premier Ally"? Then why is it that Pakistan hasn't by default approached China on such matters? Is that we have made it a habit of thinking that Chinese have inferior technology, whereas the world has come to understand and acknowledge China's prowess in technology. China has surpassed the rest of the world in Nuclear Power technology with likes of Pebble Bed reactors and fast breeder reactors.

In fact, if we were to look at the period between 2005-2018, had we considered replacing or substituting F-16s with J-10s at the time, even if it were technology information and exchange. Then today Pakistan Air Force would have been in a stronger position to go for or already have J-10CEs (who knows, we would've already have A ESA by now). Granted if funds were available, but still, I don't think we treat China with greater status of being our premier ally, than we ought to.

Hi,

China is a little behind in EW package---.

In engine technology---it is 5th on the list after US---UK---France---Russia---.

The Turks have better access to some of the technologies thru their western alliances that the chinese do not---.

As for the J10---. We could have had our F16's if the ACM of Paf had not decided to donate the funds to earthquake relief in 2005---. Those billions were then looted by the govt employees and politicians---.

 

[Maxpane]