Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Nasr]

Correction to your historical narrative. It was here at Armscor where the first Helmet mounted sights were put together and were in both M3 and F1s to engage Mig-21/23 threats in Angola; Soviets learned from those early encounters and moved to replicate this. The Western forces were later to appreciate this technology 15+ years later on; just as when Iraq experiences showed how poorly US forces were prepared for IEDs that they had then to come begging to us for complete Mine Resistant technology on armoured fighting vehicles - Casspirs are the grand fathers for the larger Oshkosh series with Mamba/RG32s for the later.

Thank you for the correction, I appreciate it.

 

[cabatli_53]

Correction to your historical narrative. It was here at Armscor where the first Helmet mounted sights were put together and were in both M3 and F1s to engage Mig-21/23 threats in Angola; Soviets learned from those early encounters and moved to replicate this. The Western forces were later to appreciate this technology 15+ years later on; just as when Iraq experiences showed how poorly US forces were prepared for IEDs that they had then to come begging to us for complete Mine Resistant technology on armoured fighting vehicles - Casspirs are the grand fathers for the larger Oshkosh series with Mamba/RG32s for the later.

I really appreciate S. Africa's achievements on many sector including missiles. You are not only developing those systems but also exporting them abroad (West) successfully which is an open indication of quality and experience.

 

[denel]

I really appreciate S. Africa's achievements on many sector including missiles. You are not only developing those systems but also exporting them abroad successfully which is an open indication of quality and experience.

I am able to write now without worrying about the past as time period has elapsed for discussion. One of the key important points we were experimenting in late 80s was complete situational awareness using decision system to help the pilot focus on the job at hand; sensors were feeding into this early AI based blackbox which would then project best solution. Some of the early works has evolved further and is part of the A-Darter system.

 

[cabatli_53]

Making a fighter jet from scratch does put Pakistan ahead of Turkey but in terms of F-16s since they had license production capability and overhaul infrastructure from US. TUSAS is ahead as a component manufacturer and systems integrator since it had favorable initial US assistance. Same reason PAF selected TUSAS to carry out upgrades on its own F-16s.

Something Pakistan couldn't attempt since it was under sanctions for a considerable time.

Turkey is upgrading it's own F-16s to fire the Meteor.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/07/17/turkish-f-16-jets-to-get-structural-upgrades/

And they are working on its own F-16V style upgrade for future F-16 upgrade tenders. Picture of a Aselsan AESA radar in the works.

Expected timeline for AESA 2020

F-16 Özgür cockpit

It is pretty safe to assume PAF will again employ Turkish assistance for future F-16 upgrades.

First AESA radar will be integrated on Akinci UCAV. F-16 AESA is also under development phase. Improved variant of F16 AESA will be integrated on TF-X fighters. In this roadway, Not only TRM modules but also national processors (Çakil) in electronic section is being developed domestically. I expect to see an AESA which will have 2000+ TR module elements which will be competitive, even better to US SABR AESA radar ordered by Greece under F16V upgrade solution. This radar program will be a great challanging to Greeks in order to show the deterrence of Turkish industry. Aselsan did the same strategic maneouvring on Naval AESA radar with developing a state of art S band radar which have 5000TRM GaN module elements while the best radar US allow costumers to order was a AN-SPY-1 family PESA with 4350 modules(Norway, S.Korea, Spain operate this Aegis family on their AAW frigate/destroyers).

Turkey invested/keep investing billion $ on electronic warfare sensors and its electronics since the ends of 1990’s. The activities in this field commenced with cooperation between Aselsan and BAE systems. Advancement, continuous R&D on various areas provide maturity to develop/produce more competitive products for helicopters(HEWS, Özişik) and aircrafts(SPEWS-2).

Aselsan is integrating all national cockpit instruments, AESA radar, mission computers and electronic warfare systems into one test-bed F16 platform to establish a new block which is competitive to Block-70 standards...

F-16 Özgür upgrade - Cockpit section

F-16 Block30 Glass cockpit solution

Electronic warfare field, Various type of ELINT/SGINT/COMINT/IMINT sensors/antennas have been revealed for different missions and integrated on many land vehicles. One of the biggest challenging have been carried out with Koral Radar Electronic Support/Electronic Attack Vehicle.

Navy using Ares family electronic support/attack (Ares-N/S) family. Ares family has been used by Navy for a long time and They are proven systems that actively used on many platforms including submarines.

For Air-Soj- SIGINT/ Stand of Jammer Aircraft, Global5000 will be the base aircraft that Aselsan electronic warfare sensors will be integrated and total 4 AirSoj will be delivered to TurAF. Air-Soj with AESA antenna structure is the last step(I think) a state can reach in this field and, As far as I know there are just a few state in West which has developed/produced such a complicated electronic warfare aircraft and I believe Turkey will be another country which succeeded to reveal it.

Other electronic warfare aircraft project Aselsan develops, is the ESM/ELINT, IMINT(SAR/GMTI, EO/IR), COMINT aircraft called Multi-INT. The base aircraft to be used will be Bombardier Global Express 5000 or GulfStream G550.

Anka-I with ELINT/COMINT sensors are delivered to Turkish intelligence agency last year. Introducing the voice record of Saudi murderers who killed Jamal Kashoggi is an open indication to introduce the capabilities of Turkish electronic intelligence industry...

In addition to those projects, Aselsan/Tubitak team is developing a new electronic warfare pod called "MEHPOD" based on Solid state power amplifier and AESA technology which convert F16 like fighters into a platform which is able to perform active self protection, target detection, tracking, jammer aircrafts. We expect to see the prototypes in IDEF 2019 to be held in the end of April.

I just needed to summarize Turkey's electronic warfare solutions, ongoing projects and solutions which might be beneficial as a base to Pakistani F16 upgrade solutions.

 

[Khaqan Humayun]

First AESA radar will be integrated on Akinci UCAV. F-16 AESA is also under development phase. Improved variant of F16 AESA will be integrated on TF-X fighters. In this roadway, Not only TRM modules but also national processors (Çakil) in electronic section is being developed domestically. I expect to see an AESA which will have 2000+ TR module elements which will be competitive, even better to US SABR AESA radar ordered by Greece under F16V upgrade solution. This radar program will be a great challanging to Greeks in order to show the deterrence of Turkish industry. Aselsan did the same strategic maneouvring on Naval AESA radar with developing a state of art L band radar which have 5000TRM GaN module elements while the best radar US allow costumers to order was a AN-SPY-1 family PESA with 4350 modules(Norway, S.Korea, Spain operate this Aegis family on their AAW frigate/destroyers).

Turkey invested/keep investing billion $ on electronic warfare sensors and its electronics since the ends of 1990’s. The activities in this field commenced with cooperation between Aselsan and BAE systems. Advancement, continuous R&D on various areas provide maturity to develop/produce more competitive products for helicopters(HEWS, Özişik) and aircrafts(SPEWS-2).

Aselsan is integrating all national cockpit instruments, AESA radar, mission computers and electronic warfare systems into one test-bed F16 platform to establish a new block which is competitive to Block-70 standards...

F-16 Özgür upgrade - Cockpit section

F-16 Block30 Glass cockpit solution

Electronic warfare field, Various type of ELINT/SGINT/COMINT/IMINT sensors/antennas have been revealed for different missions and integrated on many land vehicles. One of the biggest challenging have been carried out with Koral Radar Electronic Support/Electronic Attack Vehicle.

Navy using Ares family electronic support/attack (Ares-N/S) family. Ares family has been used by Navy for a long time and They are proven systems that actively used on many platforms including submarines.

For Air-Soj- SIGINT/ Stand of Jammer Aircraft, Global5000 will be the base aircraft that Aselsan electronic warfare sensors will be integrated and total 4 AirSoj will be delivered to TurAF. Air-Soj with AESA antenna structure is the last step(I think) a state can reach in this field and, As far as I know there are just a few state in West which has developed/produced such a complicated electronic warfare aircraft and I believe Turkey will be another country which succeeded to reveal it.

Other electronic warfare aircraft project Aselsan develops, is the ESM/ELINT, IMINT(SAR/GMTI, EO/IR), COMINT aircraft called Multi-INT. The base aircraft to be used will be Bombardier Global Express 5000 or GulfStream G550.

Anka-I with ELINT/COMINT sensors are delivered to Turkish intelligence agency last year. Introducing the voice record of Saudi murderers who killed Jamal Kashoggi is an open indication to introduce the capabilities of Turkish electronic intelligence industry...

In addition to those projects, Aselsan/Tubitak team is developing a new electronic warfare pod called "MEHPOD" based on Solid state power amplifier and AESA technology which convert F16 like fighters into a platform which is able to perform active self protection, target detection, tracking, jammer aircrafts. We expect to see the prototypes in IDEF 2019 to be held in the end of April.
View attachment 531346

I just needed to summarize Turkey's electronic warfare solutions, ongoing projects and solutions which might be beneficial as a base to Pakistani F16 upgrade solutions.

That’s why is said joint work with Turkey will help Pakistan to make more batter fighter jets

TF-x program of turkey is the part of independent defense policy this air superiority jet will enhance the power of TAF and will be a good choice for Pakistan Air force too. Turkey is going to replace F-16 with TF-x and Pakistan can buy those F-16 to increase F-16 fleet after 2023 Pakistan will have many option to modernize PAF

1-Turkish F-16. (Modified with Turkish avionic system)

2-TF-x.

3-J20 china

4-su35 Russia

5-JF-17 Pakistan

In the meantime, many other jet will also join the sky club.

 

[Maxpane]

 

[Readerdefence]

Hi any senior Member of any Turkish memeber can answer my following points
1 with Turkish developing AESA for f16 or any other PODs or sensors will USA allow them to fiddle
With f16s
2 If they allow aselsan or any other Turkish firm to integrate these innovations Turkey has to
Give any kind of royalty or kind of any other incentives to American firms
3 Another most important Q is will USA allow Turkish firms to integrate these upgrades to other
F16s in the world specially PAF
@araz @denel @cabatli_53
Thank you

 

[Maxpane]

 

[Sine Nomine]

It was here at Armscor where the first Helmet mounted sights were put together and were in both M3 and F1s to engage

S.A was really advance in some fields but you did gave up everything.No new such system from denel.

 

[denel]

S.A was really advance in some fields but you did gave up everything.No new such system from denel.

some e.g. aircraft but not everything. we are still continuing to work; your subs upgrades by Turkey are having a core components outsourced from here.

 

[Sine Nomine]

some e.g. aircraft but not everything. we are still continuing to work; your subs upgrades by Turkey are having a core components outsourced from here.

Good to know that,i am big fan of working with S.A.

 

[denel]

Good to know that,i am big fan of working with S.A.

no worries, there were many sensors that also made it to one of the Paksat from Somerset division

 

[Maxpane]

 

[Armchair]

Well you realize you've just contradicted yourself there. There is no point in me responding to insults, so I will leave at just that, since I don't usually react to incoherent ramble. Good day to you.

Ghazwa - brilliant posts. What you are saying is actually true. It doesn’t matter If SA did get the HMS first - the Soviets beat the US hands down on HMS and HOBS by a decade or more.

So, if we allow our egos to settle down and ignore the semantics, the soviets did have the lead on countless technologies and Russia still has the lead on some.

We shouldn’t be overawed with the US, a common trait due to the colonial legacy.

A detail - Germans developed new WVR missiles after seeing what the MiG-29s had and the Western world followed. Don’t know why they didn’t learn from SA, maybe due to SA’s isolation.

 

[denel]

Ghazwa - brilliant posts. What you are saying is actually true. It doesn’t matter If SA did get the HMS first - the Soviets beat the US hands down on HMS and HOBS by a decade or more.

So, if we allow our egos to settle down and ignore the semantics, the soviets did have the lead on countless technologies and Russia still has the lead on some.

We shouldn’t be overawed with the US, a common trait due to the colonial legacy.

A detail - Germans developed new WVR missiles after seeing what the MiG-29s had and the Western world followed. Don’t know why they didn’t learn from SA, maybe due to SA’s isolation.

Same rational; why did the west or soviets not learn from us when we started to field mine proof vehicles from mid80s onwards; only in the 2nd 2005; they woke up because casualty rates in the golrified junks called Humvees etc was peaking at 12/day. This is not the only 2 cases, similarly for comms - it was not until mid 2000 they woke up and gave merit for hopping which we had in the field since the 60s - soviets tried and did a rudimentary work on it. many many more.... most laughable is the advanced muzzle brakes being tested now only by the US.. really it was in the G5/G6s starting in late 70s!