What's new

Pakistan, China ‘keen to get hands on leaked subs documents’

Scorpene document leak could be the worst news for the Indian Navy in 2016

Prakash Nanda Aug 25, 2016 19:06 IST

#Australia #China #France #India #Indian Navy #InMyOpinion #Scorpene #Submarine #United States

By any yardstick, the leak of the detailed plans for the stealth submarines of the Indian Navy, built by the French military manufacturer DCNS (in which the French government has majority stakes), is a matter of serious concern. Submarines constitute one of the most important assets in a country’s arsenal because of their ability to control the underwater battle-space, affect maritime manoeuvre and deliver kinetic effect in support of land and maritime operations besides their core attributes of stealth, concealment and surprise. But then, a submarine is effective as long as it is secretive. If an enemy knows its secrets, then it becomes good for nothing. That is why the maxim goes, “loose lips sink ships.”

The stunning leak, which runs to 22,400 pages, has been “seen” by the newspaper The Australian. And these pages cover the entire secret combat capability of the six Scorpene-class submarines that DCNS has designed for the Indian Navy at an estimated cost of Rs 50,000 crore (the original cost was Rs 18,000 crore when the deal was signed in 2005). Incidentally, the first Scorpene (rechristened as Kalvari) of the much-delayed project (undertaken at MDL, Mumbai), is scheduled to be commissioned next month.

Four important questions arise out of this sordid episode: Who leaked the information? Who is benefiting from the leakage? How much has been leaked? And, how does it affect the Indian Navy’s overall capability?

It may be noted that given its enormity, the Scorpene-leakage is as much a big news as the leaks of the secret nuclear weapon design of Russia in 2015 and the theft of the military designs of more than two dozen advanced weapon systems of the United States in 2014, which the Chinese allegedly hacked to potentially weaken the US military advantage over China. In the case of Russia, the leakage was self-made and “accidental”. Apparently, a Russian television had revealed the design of a secret nuclear weapon delivery system: a drone submarine that could attack coastlines. Of course, the Russian explanation was not that convincing. How did a journalist gain access to such a secret weapons system? Military analysts therefore say that the leakage was intentional; the Kremlin wanted the West to know of the depth of its military might.

In the case of the Scorpene, one is not exactly certain from where did the leak originate. Although according to The Australian, the data was reportedly taken from France in 2011 by a former French Navy officer, and it then made its way to a company in Southeast Asia; but it was unclear how widely the leaked data had been shared. Sources in the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) are certain that the place of origin of the leakage was not India. But the DCNS in Paris suggests otherwise when it assures the Australian authorities (it has recently signed a deal worth of 50 billion dollars with Australia) that this sort of leak could not happen on the Australian submarine project because there are tighter controls on it as compared to that in the Indian project. According to the DCNS, as far as the Australian project is concerned, the company is responsible for safeguarding sensitive information both in France and in Australia, whereas in India it was merely “the provider and not the controller of technical data”.

In other words, DCNS thinks that the leak originated from India rather than France. But, both, the newspaper The Australian and the Australian authorities are reluctant to buy the DCNS version; they think that the leak originated from France in 2011, as the leaked data also contained details of DCNS projects unrelated to India. Besides, there is a general feeling in the West, particularly in the United States, that France has a reputation of being little careless with its military secrets.

In fact, this suspicion about the French capacity to keep secrets makes it little difficult to answer the second question - Who is benefiting from the leakage? Given the unpalatable truth that both Pakistan and China will remain India’s adversaries for a long time to come, it is natural to have the needle of suspicion point at these two countries. But this would be too simplistic. All said and done, there has always been a bitter rivalry among the Western countries and their military industrial complexes in developing new systems and finding markets for them.

It may be noted that it was the Great Britain that first started work on the development of nuclear weapons. In this work, it invited the Americans to participate. But the Americans then ditched the Brits to become the first at developing and later using the nuclear devices. Of course, with the onset of the Cold War, both nations came together and their partnership in developing new systems continue in some form or the other. But the same cannot be said about other Western countries. Americans were always suspicious of the French and this had an impact on their scientific cooperation, a reason for the delay in France becoming a nuclear power.

Even otherwise, the arms-manufacturers of the Western countries have been fierce rivals (consortiums like the Eurofighter Typhoon are exceptions). For instance, DCNS had strong rivalry from Germany and Japan before clinching the Australian submarine deal. With regard to India, we know how stiff the competition was for the Rafale combat aircraft (that we ultimately chose) from Eurofighter Typhoon, Mig 35(Russia), FA 18 Super Hornet(the USA), Saab Gripen(Sweden) and F-16 E/F(USA). It may also be noted that the Scorpene deal came against the background of the controversies over corruption with the German HDW (because of which a new deal to have more German submarines was cancelled in 1990s), which, otherwise, has made our Shishumar-class submarines (The Indian Navy operates four German-made HDW Type 209 submarines, with two out of four boats, the INS Shalki and INS Shankul, produced in India under a technology transfer agreement). In fact, at the moment Germany is in talks with India over a possible government-to-government deal for the procurement of six 2,000-ton (submerged) diesel-electric Type 214 submarines built by HDW.

Be that as it may, many Western countries have not exactly appreciated India’s close strategic partnership with France. It is true of every major country that geopolitical factor plays an important role in big-ticket purchases. French Mirages played a vital role during the 1999 Kargil campaign against Pakistan. During that campaign, India, and this is extremely important to note, obtained French clearance – and possibly more - to urgently adapt Israeli and Russian-supplied laser-guided bombs to the Mirages, which were thus able to successfully engage high-altitude targets that Indian MiG-23s and MiG-27s had been unable to reach. Besides, France is the only major Western nation (other than Russia) not to impose sanctions on India, following its nuclear explosion in 1998.

Coming back to the Scorpene leak, it is of extreme significance to find out whether the leak is deadly enough to compromise the efficacy of the six planned submarines for the Indian Navy. It is in fitness of things that Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has asked the Navy to determine the “damage”, and till then one has wait for any conclusion. One can only hope that the damage is not crippling as feared, given the facts that the leaked plans date back to 2011 and then the data would be of limited use to India’s opponents as the “signature-data” that a submarine makes is known only when it starts operation.

However, the fear is that some of the leaked data reveal a date stamp as late as May 2013. Even otherwise, the leaked data contains highly classified technical manuals and other sensitive information, including details of the submarines’ secret stealth technology, torpedo-launching systems and its many intelligence-gathering systems. So much so that the data tells the submarine crew where on the boat they can speak safely to avoid detection by the enemy. In such a situation, the best course is to redesign the submarine. But it is easier said than done as the submarine is at an advanced stage of construction. Therefore, one has to wait for the Navy’s fact-finding team’s conclusion.

That brings us to the last question — how does the leak affect the Indian Navy’s overall capability? As I had earlier said, the Indian Navy’s submarine arm - 13 conventional submarines of vintage between 15 and 30 years, one SSN(nuclear-powered submarine - Akula II class submarine, named INS Chakra - on lease from Russia for ten years) and the indigenous Arihant (SSBN or ship submersible ballistic, nuclear submarine) still undergoing trials - does not make an encouraging reading, given India’s strategic location, its size and its emerging regional power status as the region’s pre-eminent maritime power. Hence it can be said, the Scorpene-leak adds to India’s woes.

http://www.firstpost.com/india/scor...news-for-the-indian-navy-in-2016-2976564.html

Despite massive Scorpène-class submarine leak, Parrikar tries to keep a brave face


FP Staff Aug 24, 2016 12:17 IST

#ConnectTheDots #Corporate Espionage #Data leak #DCNS #Indian Navy #Manohar Parrikar #Ministry of Defence #Scorpène class submarine #Submarines

France, Brazil, Poland, Malaysia, Chilé, Australia and India — to name a handful — have reason to be concerned.

And that reason isn't that they've been lumped together in this rag-tag grouping, but the news that a 22,400-page secret document about the Scorpène-class submarines (manufactured by French shipbuilders DCNS) has gone almost-public thanks to an 'Edward Snowden-sized leak'.

The Australian points out that a variant of this submarine — six of which the Indian Navy has purchased at a cost of $3.45 billion — is part of the navies of Malaysia, Chilé and Brazil (as of 2018). While Australia is a prospective DCNS client — with the manufacturer winning a bid, in April this year, over Germany and Japan to design 12 new submarines for Canberra, India is already a client and so naturally, concerned. More pertinently, the leaked documents refer to the very model of submarine that India is purchasing. So far, India is keeping a brave face about all of this.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar spoke to ANI about this leak and said:



The Indian Navy put out a succinct statement on l'affaire Scorpène, saying:

A case of suspected leak of documents related to Scorpene submarines has been reported by a foreign media house.
The available information is being examined at Integrated Headquarters, Ministry of Defence (Navy) and an analysis is being carried out by the concerned specialists.
It appears that the source of leak is from overseas and not in India.


Parrikar was quoted by IANS as saying, "The first step is to identify if it relates to us... I've told the Navy Chief to find out all the details. Maybe, in a couple of days I'll be able share with you."

So what is known about this 22,400 page document?

PTI reports that leaked document covers a variety of details including the secret stealth capabilities of six new Indian submarines — including but not restricted to the frequencies at which they gather intelligence at, what noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance. Further, the document also highlights safe zones on board the submarine where crew members can safely speak without fear of detection by the enemy. There are also reams and reams of data on the vessel's underwater sensors (4,457), its above-water sensors (4,209), its combat management system (4,301), its navigation systems (2,138), its communications system (6,841) and 493 pages on the Scorpène-class submarine's torpedo launch system.

In other words, a veritable 'all-you-need-to-know' (emphasis on the 'all' part) on the submarines, for which India has already forked over a hefty wad of cash, is floating around.

Damage assessment

Even as the Indian Navy issued a statement saying that the source of the leak was 'from overseas' and that the Ministry of Defence is examining the data, Times Now quoted 'navy sources' as saying that "the data is dated", that the damage caused by this leak is "not substantial" and that the leak is actually the "result of corporate wars".

None of these soundbites appear to be particularly comforting in light of the following concerns:

1) How does it matter where the leaks originated? The fact is that the document could easily turn up on a PDF near you. In fact, DCNS was quoted in an IANS report as saying, "Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded... In the case of India, where a DCNS design is built by a local company (the Scorpène-class submarines will be built in Mumbai and Visakhapatnam), DCNS is the provider and not the controller of technical data." (emphasis added) Spoiler alert: We could be in for a protracted blame-game.
2) Dated or not, the information is not likely to stray too far from relevant details about the Scorpène-class submarines. It's hardly likely to be about a Soviet-era submarine.
3) As for the damage being 'not substantial', nearly 9,000 pages on sensors and almost 7,000 pages on communications systems does not sound 'not substantial'. In fact, it sounds like a very substantial chunk of information has been put out there.
4) Just as in point number one, how does it matter if the leak was a result of 'corporate wars' or a disagreement over a housing society tea party? In fact, corporate espionage could be as dangerous as military espionage, given the expansion of global military-industrial complexes.

From reverse engineering knock-off submarines for profit to finding ways to sabotage the Scorpène-class submarines, there's no way of telling just how this data will be used, but for now, it's probably safe to assume that China and Pakistan will not be too upset about all these developments.

With inputs from agencies

http://www.firstpost.com/world/desp...india-tries-to-keep-a-brave-face-2973396.html









 
.
Indian lady?? I am surprised to know that an Indian lady has so much of interest in defence, don't even know any defence reporter either.

Can you help me find the source?
ROFL.It was just a anonymous comment on a news website.
99% sure it was by a pakistani
 
.
. .
@Viper0011. Olaf One-Brow......Can these leaks be helpful to Pakistan or China or any other country.??? What sort of details got leaked? Any idea? If you don't mind sharing?....

1) These are highly complex systems, the leaks don't contain TOT in it, I can assure you of that :enjoy:

2) These will at best, talk about some technical issues with the Subs. Which means, if the Indians operated everything correctly, then French technology for these Subs sucks. Or, if the Indians didn't operate these properly, then the Indian technicians and the crew in IN sucks and would be a huge embarrassment.

3) These "leaks" don't serve as a strategical advantage beyond the news that majority of the subs aren't operational. That's it. IN still has other boats (even the nuke one), has a huge surface fleet and a strong aircraft carrier plus the IAF air-cover. So its not like China can attack the Indians and walk to Bangalore in 5 days because some subs don't work...
 
. .
China must have commenced 5% development on new sub by now considering how quickly they build Submarines

Actually the submarine leak would expose the secrets of submarine

22,000 Pages is really a "GREAT" leak

a) Marketing Brochures (Are in range of 1-5 Pages)
b) High Level Design Stuff (Normally is in range of 50-100 pages)
c) The Highly classified how to make Submarine document normally is (20,000-25,000 pages)
d) Specification of each part of sub , fine details about nuts and bolts to large scale design guidelines
  • What arrangements the electronics are in
  • Where the wiring goes
  • What technique was used in the sub to reduce the noise
  • What kind of design existed for pipes or structures for electrical wires
  • Details about integration
  • Who knows engine design
Various Trade secrets would be exposed on the haul design may be even systems on board , what kind of electronics are on board / or what kind of counter measures exist

The Chinese would be able to compare their own Submarine notes vs Scorpene sub and see how their design matches vs French , if there is weakness they could enhance designs

Practically the other party would know every strength and weakness
What kind of explosive would make the submarine , useless , what pressure etc

22,000 Page manual would be "HOW TO MAKE SUB" document

maxresdefault.jpg


4294966680_1157005944.jpg


As you know lot of information can be collected in just 1 page on parts , assembly instruction and details

So you can only imagine what kind of "HIGHLY CLASSIFIED" information was on a document that was

22,000 Pages long
 
Last edited:
.
Hilarious! @Nilgiri

This is what will happen to @The Sandman if he puts a foot in here.... but will most likely end in a cell located deep in the alps in an unknown location.... and only God would know what would happen to him next. :P
:fie::fie::drag::D
@B+ Dracula the fish is dead, return to base with that traitor of an agent @The Sandman, furthermore you are authorized to taste some of his red blood cells :D
Too l8 m8 :D i have already sold all the info to Germans ;) :D
 
.
Pak has this gambler's luck of getting unexpected gifts. Be it Tomahawk or stealth chopper or Indian saboteurs against CPEC or Mr. Modi's policy statements to undertake terrorist activities or something else..


Exactly in many cases, it is just luck or by chance.
 
. . .
Obv i guess every secret agency would love to get their hands on them :lol:
@Nilgiri @Mentee remember i told you guys i am a double agent? :butcher::butcher: :D ifynwim
bc tugh say ghtya agent nahi recruit kia ajj tak mane. har jaga shokha ho kay zuban khol deta hay. ja bhai ajj say teri chutti kal say intelligence gathering kay laye girls collage kay samey stall lagney ki koi zaroot nahi hay,main kisi or ko dhond lon ga.
 
Last edited:
.
They may cancel the +3 additional subs that are to be build and may switch equipments or change the frequencies of intelligence gathering.Other than that everything else would only be a face saving measure for MOD since all six subs are in various levels of construction and cancelling them would be detrimental if not catastrophic to Indian maritime scenario.

That is where india is shafted - changes cost more money and that is what French opting for. You gotta love game show and what French are saying.....

. But the DCNS in Paris suggests otherwise when it assures the Australian authorities (it has recently signed a deal worth of 50 billion dollars with Australia) that this sort of leak could not happen on the Australian submarine project because there are tighter controls on it as compared to that in the Indian project. According to the DCNS, as far as the Australian project is concerned, the company is responsible for safeguarding sensitive information both in France and in Australia, whereas in India it was merely “the provider and not the controller of technical data”.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...d-subs-documents’.446052/page-4#ixzz4INooiZCO
 
Last edited:
. .
Pak has this gambler's luck of getting unexpected gifts. Be it Tomahawk or stealth chopper or Indian saboteurs against CPEC or Mr. Modi's policy statements to undertake terrorist activities or something else..

How about the american drones---. They all dropped from heavens---mun o salva---
 
.

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom