Pakistan buys 13 F16 from Jordan

[MastanKhan]

Vcheng,

I forgot to mention the highly touted and used 5.56 military assault rifle used by the U S----a bullet that has hardly any stopping power----as compared to the more powerful .308---.

So---when you state the JF 17 does not have enough power----what is it reference to or comparable to----and what it cannot do---or when you say it is a mix and match of avionics---then you need to state what they cannot do and what the issues are----.

Vcheng---you are a smart and intelligent poster---!!!!!!!

 

[VCheng]

Vcheng,

What is the big deal with the engine---the F14 had a weak engine---the Phantom had a weak engine---the F18 had a weak engine---.

Everybody has cobbled together avionics and power plants nowadays---what is the big deal----. India is mating israeli equipment to russian equipment---.

So---the loiter time for the JF17 is not as much as that of an F16----but with half of that time without refuelling is still enough for the job-----.

You introduced yourself as an accountant one time---do other people know you as an engineer!!!!




Vcheng,

I think you missed the information I provided a couple of three years ago---. To refresh you----I put a stop to the leaks about the capabilities of the JF17's. Before that---it was like a sieve----info flooding out from the horses mouth---not now. There is a lid on it.

Is the 30 years old F16 not superior to the base model Grippen in every manner. These aircraft have certain ground strike capabilities matched by none other----and if the job can be done by a 5mil aircraft---then why waste a 35 mil aircraft.

Bettet BVR's, WVR's and electronic package will always make the difference----.

Please define what a better power plant would do in this case----!

Thank you for that post, but one which did not say anything about these two statements:

(1) These F-16-ADFs (OCU) represent a good deal for PAF because of their capabilities.

(2) Even these old F-16s are better in their capabilities than the spanking new JF-17.

I think that both the above two are correct.

 

[MastanKhan]

Thank you for that post, but one which did not say anything about these two statements:

(1) These F-16-ADFs (OCU) represent a good deal for PAF because of their capabilities.

(2) Even these old F-16s are better in their capabilities than the spanking new JF-17.

I think that both the above two are correct.

Hi,

So----the JF17 can take 2/3rd's the load---as compared to these older aircaft---- but the electronic warfare suite on the JF17's far superior to these older aircaft. The JF 17 can carry out the missions not delegated to teh F16---like the naval version of the chinese missile or other similar items

The bottomline is that PAF does not want to risk its 25 mil and 50 mil planes for a job that can be performed by the 5 million plane.

F16 is technically an extremely superior platform since the day of its inception----this aircraft was designed to perfection right from gitgo---. PAF was concerned that there would be issues with the F16's----but now that they have an alternative program in place---the threat of that issue has phased away.

Now as the threat of the parts issue has phased away---paf has reconsidered the purchase of this aircraft because it already has the infra structure to maintain and manager these aircraft.

As a matter of fact it should have been a concern for the paks if this option was not accepted.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Thank you for that post, but one which did not say anything about these two statements:

(1) These F-16-ADFs (OCU) represent a good deal for PAF because of their capabilities.

(2) Even these old F-16s are better in their capabilities than the spanking new JF-17.

I think that both the above two are correct.

Even though Mastan Khan sb has effectively answered you, I will reinforce it.

Both your questions are really just one question phrased two different ways. But in any case:

1. The deal is good because of the price as explained very well by Munir and MK sb.

2. The spanking new JF-17 is the Block II currently being manufactured at Kamra. The same was inaugurated by our PM.

IF F-16 ADF can a) fire AIM-120 to its range, b) fire ASM, c) carry DRFM, d) carry APG-68 e) carry comparable ECM, f) have remaining Air-frame life longer than new JF-17, g) can not be sanctioned, e) have lower operating costs, then one could say that they are in every respect superior to JF-17.

However, these ADFs have no maritime role, can not be upgraded by Pakistan with any new weapons integration, have lesser capability avionics, cost more to operate, cost more to maintain (being old), provide no value to our industrial capacity, will always carry the risk of sanctions, and hurt our marketing of JF-17.

So, rather than put burden on others to 'prove' you wrong, could you address any of the above to prove yourself right. You are the cynic, you might as well prove your allegations.

You might be laughing to yourself at your ability to make other people waste their time with you non-sense posts, claims, and cynicism, for all I know. But given that you never bother to apologize when conclusively proven wrong, as in the case of your assertion that these birds would not be coming to Pakistan, you might actually come here to troll in a more sophisticated way than others.

 

[VCheng]

Hi,

So----the JF17 can take 2/3rd's the load---as compared to these older aircaft---- but the electronic warfare suite on the JF17's far superior to these older aircaft. The JF 17 can carry out the missions not delegated to teh F16---like the naval version of the chinese missile or other similar items

The bottomline is that PAF does not want to risk its 25 mil and 50 mil planes for a job that can be performed by the 5 million plane.

F16 is technically an extremely superior platform since the day of its inception----this aircraft was designed to perfection right from gitgo---. PAF was concerned that there would be issues with the F16's----but now that they have an alternative program in place---the threat of that issue has phased away.

Now as the threat of the parts issue has phased away---paf has reconsidered the purchase of this aircraft because it already has the infra structure to maintain and manager these aircraft.

As a matter of fact it should have been a concern for the paks if this option was not accepted.

The electronics suite on the F-16 can be upgraded too. The one thing that JF-17 does have going for it over the F-16 is that much the the ability to upgrade it is within Pakistan's control. The down side to that domestic ability is that it remains a few steps behind and is subject to delays due to lack of adequate funding.

 

[Quwa]

If it's still unclear to anyone, the availability of used F-16s does not make the JF-17 any less necessary. In fact, it makes the JF-17 all the more important to the PAF. As @Chak Bamu mentioned, the F-16s cannot readily be upgraded or modified in absence of a US-approved mandate, and even then the PAF would have to settle with what the US chooses to make available.

So why the used F-16s then?

Did we just suddenly forget that the PAF has 20-25+ year old F-7s to replace soon? If the PAF can pick up used and surplus F-16 airframes for cheap, and these F-16s are capable of using AIM-120s, then why not? The availability of JF-17s and funds do not make the F-16 completely irrelevant considering that the PAF has the infrastructure and logistical prerequisites (e.g. training, maintenance people, etc) to operate A/B *and* C/D fighters.

What about JF-17?

As @Chak Bamu and others have mentioned, the JF-17 and its subsequent versions (e.g. Block-2, 3, etc) give the PAF the flexibility to develop the aircraft around the weapon systems and technology of its choice. This includes the PAF's inventory of stand-off strike weapons, i.e. Ra'ad, H2, H4, CM-400AKG and whatever else PAF develops or acquires in the future.

In fact, the F-16s give the PAF additional room in regards to JF-17. Instead of expediting the platform for the base minimum of suitable air-to-air and air-to-surface capabilities, the PAF can orient JF-17 Block-3 et. al development towards achieving greater payload and range. This could include substantial changes to the airframe, e.g. conformal fuel-tanks, higher proportion of composite materials, new engine, etc.

The PAF can evolve the JF-17 from its current lightweight general use platform into a medium weight 4+ generation multirole fighter. Whereas the F-16 can stand in as a formidable air defence asset, the JF-17 (i.e. future blocks) can form the nucleus of the PAF's offensive forces.

 

[MastanKhan]

The electronics suite on the F-16 can be upgraded too. The one thing that JF-17 does have going for it over the F-16 is that much the the ability to upgrade it is within Pakistan's control. The down side to that domestic ability is that it remains a few steps behind and is subject to delays due to lack of adequate funding.

Vcheng,

Man---your last few posts on this subject matter are nether here nor there.

So what citizenship does Caroline Jaine has----.

 

[VCheng]

Vcheng,

Man---your last few posts on this subject matter are nether here nor there.

So what citizenship does Caroline Jaine has----.

Yeah, I am the utterly stupid one (look at my avatar!) who is not making sense because I cannot compete with the absolute perfect wisdom in uniform. I concede defeat. Adios!

 

[Chak Bamu]

Yeah, I am the utterly stupid one (look at my avatar!) who is not making sense because I cannot compete with the absolute perfect wisdom in uniform. I concede defeat. Adios!

Sarcastic Parthian shots can not cover the inadequacy of your POV and the stupidity of sticking to your opinion when clearly proven wrong.

Yeah, so run Homer run.

I feel sorry for people around you. Stubbornness combined with sarcasm is a deadly combination.

 

[Informant]

@VCheng remember when you would thump up and down when it came to congress approval for F-16s. How dumbfounded you were I was telling people to relax and just wait for good news. But nay, you just with your high handedness had to argue. I know your type, seen your type. You will argue anything and anyone.

Now you argue nonsense, bring up internet drivel as facts and figures to back up your misguided stance. Then again you can carry on, some might take the bait. Most wont. Atleast people privy to inside info wont be that easy.

 

[Bratva]

If someone wondering how cash strapped PAF managed to buy these F-16 or some might think, these are brought from AID money, PAF recently concluded a 80-90 million dollar deal with IRAQ for mushaq trainers. As per Munir estimate these F-16 were brought for 70-80 Million dollar. Hence We bought these from our MONEY.

 

[rockstar08]

If someone wondering how cash strapped PAF managed to buy these F-16 or some might think, these are brought from AID money, PAF recently concluded a 80-90 million dollar deal with IRAQ for mushaq trainers. As per Munir estimate these F-16 were brought for 70-80 Million dollar. Hence We bought these from our MONEY.

yep It does make sense , I was about to reply the same things for those peoples who concern about $$$$
but I have a question , do you think that Jordanian 13 F-16's were last ones to find their new homes ? or PAF is looking to increase their numbers ??
I personally think if they bought more than it would be good option to replace their aging fleet of F-7's !!
@Chak Bamu @araz @Munir your thoughts ?

 

[Viper0011.]

[quote="VCheng, post: 5647343, member: 32635"
(1) These F-16-ADFs (OCU) represent a good deal for PAF because of their capabilities.
(2) Even these old F-16s are better in their capabilities than the spanking new JF-17.
I think that both the above two are correct.[/quote]

The above statement may be true for JF-17 block 1. But it won't be true for the Block II and III's. The PAF is trying to create tiers. In fact, the F-16 is going to create the outer most tier in my opinion, which is the most riskier, the air defense role. This negates a lot of people's assumptions on here that the F-16 is so costly that the PAF would use it in certain conditions or keep it as a princess in the house so to speak. With the F-16 in numbers and even used ones, you get the following:
1) A super capable aircraft to defend your airspace against threats like the MKI.
2) Cost effective platform with no additional training costs, maintenance overhead, etc. Readily deploy-able, maintenance and overhauls available.
3) Forms the outer most tier for interception. Becomes the point of contact with any enemy assets.
4) With number 3 being applied, that gives the JF-17's availability to use different weapons and strike platforms like standoff weapons, anti-radiation missiles, naval weapons, etc. Since the F-16 was used on the outer most tier, the JF-17 can use a range of weapons in multi-role. It can also be used for AD supplementing the F-16 or forming the second tier for AD.
5) More F-16's give PAF the ability to reduce or remove F-7's from AD roles. The F-7's then become point-defense jets, providing air cover over critical cities, installations, etc. The Grifo radar is great for limited 20-25 KM BVR. This becomes the inner most tier. The F-7's would probably be best used in this manner.
6) Less pressure to push out JF-17 in a hurry. The block II already have a lot more capability. Block III may turn into a new Stealthy plane as adding F-16's gives plenty of extra time to PAF to ensure top tech and quality is put into the JF-17.

Now if you take a look at it, an enemy aircraft has to go through about three tiers, the F-16's, the JF-17 and then the F-7 (not to mention SAM's), to get to a target. How much success rate would you give the enemy jets? I'd give very little chance of being able to cross 3-4 AD rings including SAM and STILL being able to make it to the target and come back alive.....

This entire scenario I drew for you, became reality due to the acquisition of used F-16's. Otherwise the PAF would have to wait another 5 years before JF-17 can be available in block II and real numbers. The above scenario could NEVER exist if there was no JF-17. Both the JF-17 and the F-16 working together provide tremendous force-multiplication capability that otherwise won't be possible.

 

[aliyusuf]

The above statement may be true for JF-17 block 1. But it won't be true for the Block II and III's. The PAF is trying to create tiers. In fact, the F-16 is going to create the outer most tier in my opinion, which is the most riskier, the air defense role. This negates a lot of people's assumptions on here that the F-16 is so costly that the PAF would use it in certain conditions or keep it as a princess in the house so to speak. With the F-16 in numbers and even used ones, you get the following:
1) A super capable aircraft to defend your airspace against threats like the MKI.
2) Cost effective platform with no additional training costs, maintenance overhead, etc. Readily deploy-able, maintenance and overhauls available.
3) Forms the outer most tier for interception. Becomes the point of contact with any enemy assets.
4) With number 3 being applied, that gives the JF-17's availability to use different weapons and strike platforms like standoff weapons, anti-radiation missiles, naval weapons, etc. Since the F-16 was used on the outer most tier, the JF-17 can use a range of weapons in multi-role. It can also be used for AD supplementing the F-16 or forming the second tier for AD.
5) More F-16's give PAF the ability to reduce or remove F-7's from AD roles. The F-7's then become point-defense jets, providing air cover over critical cities, installations, etc. The Grifo radar is great for limited 20-25 KM BVR. This becomes the inner most tier. The F-7's would probably be best used in this manner.
6) Less pressure to push out JF-17 in a hurry. The block II already have a lot more capability. Block III may turn into a new Stealthy plane as adding F-16's gives plenty of extra time to PAF to ensure top tech and quality is put into the JF-17.

Now if you take a look at it, an enemy aircraft has to go through about three tiers, the F-16's, the JF-17 and then the F-7 (not to mention SAM's), to get to a target. How much success rate would you give the enemy jets? I'd give very little chance of being able to cross 3-4 AD rings including SAM and STILL being able to make it to the target and come back alive.....

This entire scenario I drew for you, became reality due to the acquisition of used F-16's. Otherwise the PAF would have to wait another 5 years before JF-17 can be available in block II and real numbers. The above scenario could NEVER exist if there was no JF-17. Both the JF-17 and the F-16 working together provide tremendous force-multiplication capability that otherwise won't be possible.

In the scenario depicted, don't you see any role for the ROSE-I Mirage-IIIEA equipped with Grifo-M3 radar?

 

[Viper0011.]

In the scenario depicted, don't you see any role for the ROSE-I Mirage-IIIEA equipped with Grifo-M3 radar?

Frankly speaking, their airframes are getting too old. They'll still be used as strike platforms for standoff munitions. Their naval role will be reduced due to availability of the JF-17 and more weapons package that come with it. Mirages will become ground support (Cluster munitions) and strike platforms for standoff weapons. If the PAF can secure more F-16's like 50 or so, you might see some Mirages start to phase out right away