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Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

And why do you think Ukraine or anyone will transfer key industrial products for local manufacturing thereby making their own plants redundant? There simply isnt enough demand for us to build them in house with the necessary investment crossing 10sof billions of dollars with no definitive outcome. You need to learn to take baby steps before you can walk. Would you put a toddler to run the 26Km marathon and bet your life's earnings on him to win? Similarly we need to learn to walk before we can run. And just for your info if you think we are running with the aviation industry then I think you are far away from the truth. We do have talent but no cogent industrial backup and Zero research or even concept of the utility of research. All the talent we have is exporting doctors and engineers to the West and now computing wizards.
A

To give you guys an example one of the most valuable and respected degrees to get in the UK is Maths. What would a Pakistani dad or mum day if their son wanted to read Maths at university level. " Saalay kya jaa kay teacher banay ga".
A
Ok Sir, Pakistan must keep begging and buying engines for its jets, Tanks, choppers,ships,sub and commercial vehicles from the supernatural American, Chinese, European . now bring turkey into this list also,..
If our top brass keep thinking like this we might achieve this milestone after 100 years or might latter than this.
25 years ago we start Al khalid tank project , now we r looking for Al khalid 2. Al Haider on drawing boards. And need a more than thousand tanks but still you said we do not need in large numbers...
Still we own not a single engine for this tank because we have no will for self reliance, we want our next generation also dependant on others. That's our leadership vision. Now might be some people give me example on indian arjun tank. Please not bring always lower example. Must took some examples from a better ones. Like South Korea, Turkey, China. We are not a league of india. Think bigger , Plan better.put all out efforts than result will surprise every one not the average ones.
A thousand mile long journey start from a step. Thanks.
( I have not targeted you, but a general perception in our decision makers )
 
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And why do you think Ukraine or anyone will transfer key industrial products for local manufacturing thereby making their own plants redundant? There simply isnt enough demand for us to build them in house with the necessary investment crossing 10sof billions of dollars with no definitive outcome. You need to learn to take baby steps before you can walk. Would you put a toddler to run the 26Km marathon and bet your life's earnings on him to win? Similarly we need to learn to walk before we can run. And just for your info if you think we are running with the aviation industry then I think you are far away from the truth. We do have talent but no cogent industrial backup and Zero research or even concept of the utility of research. All the talent we have is exporting doctors and engineers to the West and now computing wizards.
A

To give you guys an example one of the most valuable and respected degrees to get in the UK is Maths. What would a Pakistani dad or mum day if their son wanted to read Maths at university level. " Saalay kya jaa kay teacher banay ga".
A
Actually there is no demand countries like ukrain are desperate if they dont they will not sell anything anyway.
It is not the 1970s. Noone is buying high tech weapons anyway
 
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Ok Sir, Pakistan must keep begging and buying engines for its jets, Tanks, choppers,ships,sub and commercial vehicles from the supernatural American, Chinese, European . now bring turkey into this list also,..
If our top brass keep thinking like this we might achieve this milestone after 100 years or might latter than this.
25 years ago we start Al khalid tank project , now we r looking for Al khalid 2. Al Haider on drawing boards. And need a more than thousand tanks but still you said we do not need in large numbers...
Still we own not a single engine for this tank because we have no will for self reliance, we want our next generation also dependant on others. That's our leadership vision. Now might be some people give me example on indian arjun tank. Please not bring always lower example. Must took some examples from a better ones. Like South Korea, Turkey, China. We are not a league of india. Think bigger , Plan better.put all out efforts than result will surprise every one not the average ones.
A thousand mile long journey start from a step. Thanks.
( I have not targeted you, but a general perception in our decision makers )
Congratulations on turning a post on its head and totally misconstruing what I wrote. Bhai you guys are so stooped in your nationalism that you fail to see the actual picture. Allow me to enlighten you.
A. As a nation we are broke. 100 billion in deficit and having to have bailouts from Tom Dick and Harry to keep from defaulting.
B. It seems that our Govtt in spite of the leadership being honest seems clueless in tackling this mess that we are in. I use the term seems because the press is totally anti government and some of my financially savvy friends who are retired WB officials tell me so.
C. The west and China do not want you to escape their clutches as it suits for them that you remain a buyer and a begger so you can be controlled. So every time anything good happens it is sabotaged from within and outside. It seems the off shore drilling was scuppered for the same reason. Same for Saindak project.
D. You have a morally and financially corrupt polity , brass and public who rely on hand outs to teach their sons/daughters in Unis in US. There is plenty of evidence from Abida Hussain,s accounts of the corruption that goes on in defence circles.
E. The children that study in Pak want to escape the country and take up jobs in US and elsewhere. So a lot of Ex Pat Paks are financial migrants who have looked after their own interests.
F. Those of us who have wanted to go back are actively discouraged denied jobs and even victimised so they return back.
G. Your Unis are run by art works of mediocrity with few exceptions. Those who have gone back have mostly returned. From my friends in Cranfield most of the PAF MSC/PHD students are buttering their bosses to give them jobs in UK.
H. We have no concept of research and most research is plagiarized and copy paste stuff. People who want to make a difference are sent khuday line. One of my near relatives has had 2 fights with his boss over accepting bribes and wanting useless stuff to come into inventory when there are better products being produced in house. He has threatened to resign his post as a Lt Col. He is going to retire in April this year and cant wait to get away from the army.
I. The industrial infrastructure has never recovered from the 70s when it was destroyed by the Idiot Bhutto and the bloody idiot Mubasshir Hassan. And then the corrupt MQM and the bhatta party sending nazrana to Jabba the Hut. Most people have uprooted their industry to Dubai or even Bangladesh. So good luck getting them back.
J. Basic specialized steel plants will send you back any where between 2-5billion. Then you start research and sink another 2-5 billion and get some where only to find some bastard in a uniform demanding a bribe to even see you. In Lahore the standard Nazrana to see a General during Zia times was 100000Rs. Imagine what it is now.
There are so many hurdles you cannot even begin to imagine.
A
 
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Ok Sir, Pakistan must keep begging and buying engines for its jets, Tanks, choppers,ships,sub and commercial vehicles from the supernatural American, Chinese, European . now bring turkey into this list also,..
If our top brass keep thinking like this we might achieve this milestone after 100 years or might latter than this.
25 years ago we start Al khalid tank project , now we r looking for Al khalid 2. Al Haider on drawing boards. And need a more than thousand tanks but still you said we do not need in large numbers...
Still we own not a single engine for this tank because we have no will for self reliance, we want our next generation also dependant on others. That's our leadership vision. Now might be some people give me example on indian arjun tank. Please not bring always lower example. Must took some examples from a better ones. Like South Korea, Turkey, China. We are not a league of india. Think bigger , Plan better.put all out efforts than result will surprise every one not the average ones.
A thousand mile long journey start from a step. Thanks.
( I have not targeted you, but a general perception in our decision makers )
Making an engine is technically feasible for Pakistan. One way is by TOT, but then this is a licensed engine, not your engine. Or if you will to develop one, you will need to invest hundreds of millions dollars in R & D and factory & tooling set ups, even before your first engine is rolled out.

So it is basically economic factor that you have to consider. And after spending hundreds of million dollars, your engine will have its own costing i.e. cost per engine. At this stage, another economic factor known as economy of scale comes in. You will need a certain number of engines to justify your total investment in R & D, production facilities, tooling, human resources training costs etc.

You will need to make and sell thousands of engines otherwise the costs of each engines could come up to many times higher, from 300% to 500% higher than comparable engine in the global market if only 200 to 300 hundred engines are produced..

Do you have the money to spend on this type of luxury expenses?
 
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And why do you think Ukraine or anyone will transfer key industrial products for local manufacturing thereby making their own plants redundant? There simply isnt enough demand for us to build them in house with the necessary investment crossing 10sof billions of dollars with no definitive outcome. You need to learn to take baby steps before you can walk. Would you put a toddler to run the 26Km marathon and bet your life's earnings on him to win? Similarly we need to learn to walk before we can run. And just for your info if you think we are running with the aviation industry then I think you are far away from the truth. We do have talent but no cogent industrial backup and Zero research or even concept of the utility of research. All the talent we have is exporting doctors and engineers to the West and now computing wizards.
A

To give you guys an example one of the most valuable and respected degrees to get in the UK is Maths. What would a Pakistani dad or mum day if their son wanted to read Maths at university level. " Saalay kya jaa kay teacher banay ga".
A
Hi just a off topic Q is it not possible for military establishment to churn out money for a military grade LM style something as they are doing in other business sectors like sugar cement etc
I hope I’m not bothering you with my off topic question
My thoughts are they have enough budget to start something with Chinese state manufacturing companies and later they can sell these items to GOP
Thank you
 
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Actually there is no demand countries like ukrain are desperate if they dont they will not sell anything anyway.
It is not the 1970s. Noone is buying high tech weapons anyway
Bhai
Where is the money going to come from. Ukraine is having a hard time complying with the Thai order of Oplot tank and you expect them to help you manufacture an engine. If it were so easy Korea and China would have done it. Both are struggling.
A
 
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Interesting that we are entering key design and manufacturing stage with out a viable special steel industry or any metalurgical research institution ( unless I am unaware). We have previously announced TOT deals which have not translated into much primarily because there was not much to transfer on to. So I hope we dont go down the same route with this one.
On a purely strategic and long term viability issue we need dual use technology as in any industry barring industrial giants like the US, China and the Russians, there is not enough production of material to keep things going. Initial production rates may be kept low for that reason along with adequate manpower development/retention However in the long run we will need "bread and butter" stuff to keep the industry moving during the times of defence related contract dearth. The next question is whether we are looking at reinvesting the money gained from export of defence items in revamping our industrial hubs as well as build viable feeding industry? Whehterh the private sector could be invited into such a complex for basic metallurgical input remains a mute but thought provoking point.
A
With the MILGEM-J and LRMPA, the PN is trying to build-up the country's design/engineering and integration expertise. It knows full well that Pakistan doesn't have anywhere near all of the inputs to make a warship on a turnkey basis. However, it can escape from OEM-specified configurations by designing its own solutions and, in turn, sourcing the inputs from whatever sources it wants. So, with a French corvette, you'd probably have to pay for French steel and electronics, which can cost a lot. Likewise for German and British. However, with the Jinnah-class (esp. ship #4), you can pick whatever steel, propulsion, superstructure materials, etc you want, and at least control the pricing a bit more.

That said, I do think we have enough inherent economies-of-scale to justify some critical inputs, namely steel and superstructure materials. The latter can include composites for ships, land-based vehicles, and -- of course -- rotary and fixed-wing aircraft.

Or we do not have the relevant industrial base to claim those offsets? Even today we are importing basic building material for JFT as well as marine projects. It maybe because the production base is not large enough for the necessary investment.
A


Reason for frigates being built in China was lack of capacity at the KSEW.
A
You don't necessarily have to implement offsets on the defence industry directly, at least not in the beginning.

One thing the Germans did, especially in the 1950s/1960s, is that they asked the Americans and British to issue offsets through R&D partnerships with local German companies. Some of it was in defence, others was in auto, medicine, etc. The basic point is that you want some of the hard currency you're spending on an import to come back to your economy (lower the BoP gap) and, with the right policies and oversight, in targeted sectors that you want to develop further. These offsets is what helped create those mega-consortiums (e.g., MBDA) -- because you had sellers reinvest some of the expenditure back in the buyers' countries.

So, for Pakistan, you could have very well tied these big purchases to targeted offsets. You could have told TAI, for example, 'we'd like to start developing critical inputs for aerospace,' and force their hand to invest in R&D (either as a whole TAI subsidiary or a co-owned subsidiary with a private Pakistani company) in Pakistan. This is exactly what the Turks did as well with the Europeans and Americans, which helped create TUSAS/TEI and, with time, spawned into wholly Turkish-owned companies (i.e., from people and businesses that were originally borne from offsets). This is what India is doing today.

You could also take an alternative approach. E.g., in Canada, the offsets were pushed to non-defence industries. So, Pakistan could've asked the OEMs to figure out a way to invest in Pakistan's auto-manufacturing, medicines, pharma, surgical equipment, electronics, etc. In this situation, the OEM would work out a deal with some private investors and let them take lead in FDI in those non-defence sectors. In turn, those sectors grow and generate exports -- i.e., pull hard-currency -- and you can keep importing weapons. In this situation, you're not focused on building a defence industry, but rather, the wider economy so that you can support defence spending.

Ultimately, the key is crafting forward-thinking, comprehensive policies and enforcing oversight into ensuring that the selling side meets its contractual obligations. We know, for a fact, that Pakistan doesn't do either. Yes, money is a constraint, but at the end of the day, whether it's in cash or through a loan, it's your USD/GBP/Euro that are flying out. It's either upfront today or gradually, but it's your money. So, you have to exert leverage. This would result in some OEMs backing away (esp. in US/Europe), but others -- like in Turkey, Ukraine, Brazil, etc -- who do need your business (for scale, prestige, etc) will talk.

I agree to your post but we need to accept our industrial limitations as well which you have duly noted as quoted above and because of this our level of absorption of technology is limited, for example even in JF-17 as per Shahid Latif in some areas our engineers accepted limitations of their knowledge and experience therefore we decided to get whole batches of engineers trained and educated in Chinese universities in exclusive technical disciplines.

Another example from the point of view of Electronics/Avionics you know that we use Grifo radars in our F-7 and Mirage jets and have licence to manufacture them but to my surprise I recently come to know that Grifo radar still use Pentium-75 processor which was introduced in early or mid 90s of the last century and now OEM has discontinued it, I don't know we don't want to update it or we don't have the capacity to update it, but the fact is we are still using Grifo with same processor ......

So the point is with China we have a model for the procurement of defence article which give us basic level of capabilities in that domain with flexibility of integration and modification as per our requirement but it is upto increase those capabilities from basic level
The mistake with the Grifo program is that we bought the 'ToT' to manufacture (or likely assemble it). Instead, we should've tacked a 33% offset in the form of investment in our electronics sector, possibly in semiconductors or at least one higher/less intensive layer (e.g., chip manufacturing?). Sure, that investment alone wouldn't have gotten us there, but it's a huge start that wouldn't have come at the cost of trading an urgent defence need.

The fundamental flaw with our 'defence industry' thinking is that we're not working to build an actual defence "industry." This is why the 'ToT' sticker is always a factor, but never offsets. With offsets, you probably can't say something like "and we make this radar in Pakistan," in the near-term. It doesn't sound as good, but from an economic standpoint (and there are risks with this too, but again, with controls it can work) you have money flowing into development. India dropped ToT from the MMRCA and got 36 Rafales off-the-shelf with offsets -- those offsets are going to feed into something that'll bite us down the line later.

That 'development' could be the German/Turkish model of nurturing a defence industry, or the Canadian model of your supporting your wider economy (so that you can comfortably afford defence), or a hybrid model like Australia, UK, India, etc of both. For this you need to bind defence procurement with economic policy-making and a well-defined goal. This is the biggest difference between us and Turkey, India, and I daresay now, even UAE and KSA.
 
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Congratulations on turning a post on its head and totally misconstruing what I wrote. Bhai you guys are so stooped in your nationalism that you fail to see the actual picture. Allow me to enlighten you.
A. As a nation we are broke. 100 billion in deficit and having to have bailouts from Tom Dick and Harry to keep from defaulting.
B. It seems that our Govtt in spite of the leadership being honest seems clueless in tackling this mess that we are in. I use the term seems because the press is totally anti government and some of my financially savvy friends who are retired WB officials tell me so.
C. The west and China do not want you to escape their clutches as it suits for them that you remain a buyer and a begger so you can be controlled. So every time anything good happens it is sabotaged from within and outside. It seems the off shore drilling was scuppered for the same reason. Same for Saindak project.
D. You have a morrally and financially corrupt polity , brass and public who rely on hand outs to teach their sons/daughters in Unis in US. There is plenty of evidence from Abida Hussain,s accounts of the corruption that goes on in defence circles.
E. The children that study in Pak want to escape the country and take up jobs in US and elsewhere. So a lot of Ex Pat Paks are financial migrants who have looked after their own interests.
F. Those of us who have wanted to go back are actively discouraged denied jobs and even victimised so they return back.
G. Your Unis are run by art works of mediocrity with few exceptions. Those who have gone back have mostly returned. From my friends in Cranfield most of the PAF MSC/PHD students are buttering their bosses to give them jobs in UK.
H. We have no concept of research and most research is plagiarized and copy paste stuff. People who want to make a difference are sent khuday line. One of my near relatives has had 2 fights with his boss over accepting bribes and wanting useless stuff to come into inventory when there are better products being produced in house. He has threatened to resign his post as a Lt Col. He is going to retire in April this year and cant wait to get away from the army.
I. The industrial infrastructure has never recovered from the 70s when it was destroyed by the Idiot hutto and the bloody idiot Mubasshir Hassan. And then the corrupt MQM and the bhatta party sending nazrana to Jabba the Hut. Most people have uprooted their industry to Dubai or even Bangladesh. So good luck gettingcthem back.
J. Basic specialized steel plants will send you back any where between 2-5billion. Then you start research and sink another 2-5 billion and get some where only to find some bastard in a uniform demanding a bribe to even see you. In Lahore the standard Nazrana to see a General during Zia times was 100000Rs. Imagine what it is now.
There are so many hurdles you cannot even begin to imagine.
A
A
Ok Sir , all the hurdles aside. Can we hope any breakthrough in near future from any top brass decides in favour on nation,instrad for their self interest.Thanks

Making an engine is technically feasible for Pakistan. One way is by TOT, but then this is a licensed engine, not your engine. Or if you will to develop one, you will need to invest hundreds of millions dollars in R & D and factory & tooling set ups, even before your first engine is rolled out.

So it is basically economic factor that you have to consider. And after spending hundreds of million dollars, your engine will have its own costing i.e. cost per engine. At this stage, another economic factor known as economy of scale comes in. You will need a certain number of engines to justify your total investment in R & D, production facilities, tooling, human resources training costs etc.

You will need to make and sell thousands of engines otherwise the costs of each engines could come up to many times higher, from 300% to 500% higher than comparable engine in the global market if only 200 to 300 hundred engines are produced..

Do you have the money to spend on this type of luxury expenses?
No Sir, we don't have any thing for these developments because our top establishment are so scared for personal interests. And they happy with kickbacks and after retirement plans associated with these sanction prone procurement for motherland.thanks

Actually there is no demand countries like ukrain are desperate if they dont they will not sell anything anyway.
It is not the 1970s. Noone is buying high tech weapons anyway
Thank you Sir, Ukrainian are desperate for any joint venture even saudi and Qatar govt are making joint venture with them for the light transport and passenger aircraft. Turkey also getting many stuff from them. But we are happy only in buying from them. If they put sanction on us for tank engine we will go to next doorstep for begging because that has become our national occupation.now about the dollars. We have billions spending on new DHA phases in Lahore, Karachi, Gujaranwala,Bhawalpur, Islamabad and many more areas but nothing in our pockets for the national level project.

Even they can make an arrangement between institute NUST and Fauji Foundation to join hands on development, Nust will research and other will spend money and latter both can be beneficial of that success.
 
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With the MILGEM-J and LRMPA, the PN is trying to build-up the country's design/engineering and integration expertise. It knows full well that Pakistan doesn't have anywhere near all of the inputs to make a warship on a turnkey basis. However, it can escape from OEM-specified configurations by designing its own solutions and, in turn, sourcing the inputs from whatever sources it wants. So, with a French corvette, you'd probably have to pay for French steel and electronics, which can cost a lot. Likewise for German and British. However, with the Jinnah-class (esp. ship #4), you can pick whatever steel, propulsion, superstructure materials, etc you want, and at least control the pricing a bit more.

That said, I do think we have enough inherent economies-of-scale to justify some critical inputs, namely steel and superstructure materials. The latter can include composites for ships, land-based vehicles, and -- of course -- rotary and fixed-wing aircraft.


You don't necessarily have to implement offsets on the defence industry directly, at least not in the beginning.

One thing the Germans did, especially in the 1950s/1960s, is that they asked the Americans and British to issue offsets through R&D partnerships with local German companies. Some of it was in defence, others was in auto, medicine, etc. The basic point is that you want some of the hard currency you're spending on an import to come back to your economy (lower the BoP gap) and, with the right policies and oversight, in targeted sectors that you want to develop further. These offsets is what helped create those mega-consortiums (e.g., MBDA) -- because you had sellers reinvest some of the expenditure back in the buyers' countries.

So, for Pakistan, you could have very well tied these big purchases to targeted offsets. You could have told TAI, for example, 'we'd like to start developing critical inputs for aerospace,' and force their hand to invest in R&D (either as a whole TAI subsidiary or a co-owned subsidiary with a private Pakistani company) in Pakistan. This is exactly what the Turks did as well with the Europeans and Americans, which helped create TUSAS/TEI and, with time, spawned into wholly Turkish-owned companies (i.e., from people and businesses that were originally borne from offsets). This is what India is doing today.

You could also take an alternative approach. E.g., in Canada, the offsets were pushed to non-defence industries. So, Pakistan could've asked the OEMs to figure out a way to invest in Pakistan's auto-manufacturing, medicines, pharma, surgical equipment, electronics, etc. In this situation, the OEM would work out a deal with some private investors and let them take lead in FDI in those non-defence sectors. In turn, those sectors grow and generate exports -- i.e., pull hard-currency -- and you can keep importing weapons. In this situation, you're not focused on building a defence industry, but rather, the wider economy so that you can support defence spending.

Ultimately, the key is crafting forward-thinking, comprehensive policies and enforcing oversight into ensuring that the selling side meets its contractual obligations. We know, for a fact, that Pakistan doesn't do either. Yes, money is a constraint, but at the end of the day, whether it's in cash or through a loan, it's your USD/GBP/Euro that are flying out. It's either upfront today or gradually, but it's your money. So, you have to exert leverage. This would result in some OEMs backing away (esp. in US/Europe), but others -- like in Turkey, Ukraine, Brazil, etc -- who do need your business (for scale, prestige, etc) will talk.


The mistake with the Grifo program is that we bought the 'ToT' to manufacture (or likely assemble it). Instead, we should've tacked a 33% offset in the form of investment in our electronics sector, possibly in semiconductors or at least one higher/less intensive layer (e.g., chip manufacturing?). Sure, that investment alone wouldn't have gotten us there, but it's a huge start that wouldn't have come at the cost of trading an urgent defence need.

The fundamental flaw with our 'defence industry' thinking is that we're not working to build an actual defence "industry." This is why the 'ToT' sticker is always a factor, but never offsets. With offsets, you probably can't say something like "and we make this radar in Pakistan," in the near-term. It doesn't sound as good, but from an economic standpoint (and there are risks with this too, but again, with controls it can work) you have money flowing into development. India dropped ToT from the MMRCA and got 36 Rafales off-the-shelf with offsets -- those offsets are going to feed into something that'll bite us down the line later.

That 'development' could be the German/Turkish model of nurturing a defence industry, or the Canadian model of your supporting your wider economy (so that you can comfortably afford defence), or a hybrid model like Australia, UK, India, etc of both. For this you need to bind defence procurement with economic policy-making and a well-defined goal. This is the biggest difference between us and Turkey, India, and I daresay now, even UAE and KSA.


What Pakistan needs to do is written in these sentences. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) summarized the roadway perfectly. In Turkish model, S. Korea example should be noted as well. Turkish SSB officials visited S. Korean DAPA agency and learned about their strategies/roadways that was envisaged giving incentives/privillages to private companies in complete products-subsystem development. With this way, Turkey has established own unique strategic 5 years defense industry progress plans by considering the pros/minus of Turkish institutes in accordance with technological readiness levels. The fields where Turkish industry was found below the average in tech level was determined and twin programs were commenced to improve the maturity/experience of industry by learning from foreign programs. The project model of first program mostly determined as co-production with giant offset terms while second program commenced with indigenous project model. The technologies/technics learned at first program were simultaneously transfered to second program. (KT-1T/Hurkuş, T-129/T-629/Atak-2, AW-139 offset/T-625 fuselage, T-70/10t utility helicopter program, Gokturk2-1/Imece spy satellite, Turksar-5A-B(coproduction)/Turksat-6A(domestic) ComSat, U-214TN/Milden domestic sub...etc).

Furthermore, When the institutes made some progress, The National contribution obligations were increased at some sectors step by step. This leaded Turkish institutes to carry out more R&D spendings to improve their expertise/product portfolio to reach the targets envisaged by SSB. When a tender was needed to be opened for a foreign product for exm, It was mostly obliged tenderers to accept ToT/offset terms to be given for Turkish institutes.

Apart from that, Turkish institutes sometimes played very serious role to make pressure SSB to commence big and risky programs such as Hisar SAM family. In the field of air defense missiles, SSB behaved timid so commenced programs with co-production project model based on a foreign system. That was a move that was against the general expectation of Turkish institutes in 2000's so Turkish institutes immediately prepared feasibility reports to prove their capabilities and introduced to SSB in order to convince them about their capabilities. The pressure of institutes (Aselsan/Roketsan/Tübitak SAGE/Meteksan) gave positive results and so SSB had to cancel all SAM missile programs in order to re-start them with indigenous project model. At present, The institutes mentioned above is developing one of the biggest SAM missile family (deliveries will commence in this year) even if the programs delay a little bit.

Beside that, Some giant programs (Altay, Firtina, TF-X) commenced with indigenous project model but a foreign institute was selected to provide consultancy service, design partner and/or critical subsystem provider to reduce the risk factor. When indigenous prototypes revealed, The domestification progress were immediately kicked off and the foreign sub-components that were purchased from abroad, replaced with indigenous equivalents step by step while serial production were even proceeding.

The these strategies are being updated even in today and the technological obligations over Turkish institutes are forcing them to carry out more difficult tasks than before at present but the ambitious of institutes are also rising in paralel to difficulty of obligations, when they saw the destructive results of their products in real battlefield environments. This situation actually motivates them to reveal more competitive products. I hope Pakistan will also follow similar footfrints to reach the success in the fields that is seen some defficiency.
 
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What Pakistan needs to do is written in these sentences. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) summarized the roadway perfectly. In Turkish model, S. Korea example should be noted as well. Turkish SSB officials visited S. Korean DAPA agency and learned about their strategies/roadways that was envisaged giving incentives/privillages to private companies in complete products-subsystem development. With this way, Turkey has established own unique strategic 5 years defense industry progress plans by considering the pros/minus of Turkish institutes in accordance with technological readiness levels. The fields where Turkish industry was found below the average in tech level was determined and twin programs were commenced to improve the maturity/experience of industry by learning from foreign programs. The project model of first program mostly determined as co-production with giant offset terms while second program commenced with indigenous project model. The technologies/technics learned at first program were simultaneously transfered to second program. (KT-1T/Hurkuş, T-129/T-629, AW-139 offset/T-629 fuselage...etc). The obligation of national contribution regulations were increased for Turkish institutes who wants to join into Turkish defence tenders step by step. This leaded Turkish institutes to carry out more R&D spendings to improve their product portfolio to reach the targets envisaged by SSB. When a tender was needed to be opened for a foreign product, It was obliged tenderers to accept ToT/offset terms to be given for Turkish institutes. Turkish institutes sometimes played very serious role to make pressure SSB to commence big and risky programs such as Hisar SAM family. In the field of missiles, SSB behaved timid so commenced programs with co-production project model based on a foreign system but Turkish institutes prepared feasibility reports to prove their capabilities to commence indigenous air defence missile programs. The pressure of institutes gave positive results and SSB had to cancel all SAM missile programs to re-start them with indigenous project model. Some giant programs (Altay, Firtina, TF-X) commenced with indigenous project model but a foreign institute was selected for consultancy service, design partner and needed subsystem provider to close the tech gap. When indigenous prototypes revealed, The domestification progress were immediately kicked off and the sub-components that were purchased from abroad replaced with indigenous equivalents step by step while serial production were proceeding. The strategies are being updated even in todays and the obligations of Turkish institutes are more difficult than before at present (%70 national contribution for example) but the ambitious of Turkish institutes are also rising in paralel to difficulty of tenders, when they saw the destructive results of their products in real battlefield environments. This situation motivates them to reveal more competitive products. I hope Pakistan will also follow similar footfrints to reach the success in the fields that is seen some defficiency.
I agree.

But I think Turks have a good mix of ambition and humility, but in Pakistan, we suffer from a weird mix of fatalism ('we lack all these industries') and over-confidence ('we're a decade ahead of Turkey in drones').

Sometimes you'll see one Pakistani literally claim both things, and it's always -- without fail -- as an excuse over why we don't partner, collaborate, offsets, etc.
 
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It is an option to leave everything to desire and ability. But they also need money for these.
Money is a constraint, but we also misspend money too.

I'm going to pull a @MastanKhan here, but if a young person got $500 a month to kill, they'd likely kill it on leasing a nice car. However, a smart young person would spend at most 50% of that on leasing an OK car (and maybe not drive it as much), and the remainder on a business, and that business could end up making an extra $1,000 a month by the time the first lease is up. Now, the young person has $1,500 a month to kill.

In this example, if it was Pakistan, it'd somehow buy an overpriced Camry trim, and then complain how the neighbour with an A-Class is "wasting his money" without knowing how that person got to their position.

This you can argue is what happened with the F-16 Block-52+ buy -- it's a great aircraft, but the focus should've just been on buying and upgrading used F-16s to MLU. Reserve the remaining $1.5-2 b on something else.
 
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Money is a constraint, but we also misspend money too.

I'm going to pull a @MastanKhan here, but if a young person got $500 a month to kill, they'd likely kill it on leasing a nice car. However, a smart young person would spend at most 50% of that on leasing an OK car (and maybe not drive it as much), and the remainder on a business, and that business could end up making an extra $1,000 a month by the time the first lease is up. Now, the young person has $1,500 a month to kill.

In this example, if it was Pakistan, it'd somehow buy an overpriced Camry trim, and then complain how the neighbour with an A-Class is "wasting his money" without knowing how that person got to their position.

This you can argue is what happened with the F-16 Block-52+ buy -- it's a great aircraft, but the focus should've just been on buying and upgrading used F-16s to MLU. Reserve the remaining $1.5-2 b on something else.

You need a Government that has ambition. Not to be a bystander in International politics. To be involved in creating a world where we aren't pushed to the back and we get a say as much as them (west). That is what Turkey and Qatar are trying to achieve.
To be able to achieve such a goal you need to bolster science and technology (Turkey has been doing this since '74) and create a psyche that supports the idea of building at home with national means. Hence not only are we building weapons. We are also building such things as cars and medical equipment.
 
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With the MILGEM-J and LRMPA, the PN is trying to build-up the country's design/engineering and integration expertise. It knows full well that Pakistan doesn't have anywhere near all of the inputs to make a warship on a turnkey basis. However, it can escape from OEM-specified configurations by designing its own solutions and, in turn, sourcing the inputs from whatever sources it wants. So, with a French corvette, you'd probably have to pay for French steel and electronics, which can cost a lot. Likewise for German and British. However, with the Jinnah-class (esp. ship #4), you can pick whatever steel, propulsion, superstructure materials, etc you want, and at least control the pricing a bit more.

That said, I do think we have enough inherent economies-of-scale to justify some critical inputs, namely steel and superstructure materials. The latter can include composites for ships, land-based vehicles, and -- of course -- rotary and fixed-wing aircraft.


You don't necessarily have to implement offsets on the defence industry directly, at least not in the beginning.

One thing the Germans did, especially in the 1950s/1960s, is that they asked the Americans and British to issue offsets through R&D partnerships with local German companies. Some of it was in defence, others was in auto, medicine, etc. The basic point is that you want some of the hard currency you're spending on an import to come back to your economy (lower the BoP gap) and, with the right policies and oversight, in targeted sectors that you want to develop further. These offsets is what helped create those mega-consortiums (e.g., MBDA) -- because you had sellers reinvest some of the expenditure back in the buyers' countries.

So, for Pakistan, you could have very well tied these big purchases to targeted offsets. You could have told TAI, for example, 'we'd like to start developing critical inputs for aerospace,' and force their hand to invest in R&D (either as a whole TAI subsidiary or a co-owned subsidiary with a private Pakistani company) in Pakistan. This is exactly what the Turks did as well with the Europeans and Americans, which helped create TUSAS/TEI and, with time, spawned into wholly Turkish-owned companies (i.e., from people and businesses that were originally borne from offsets). This is what India is doing today.

You could also take an alternative approach. E.g., in Canada, the offsets were pushed to non-defence industries. So, Pakistan could've asked the OEMs to figure out a way to invest in Pakistan's auto-manufacturing, medicines, pharma, surgical equipment, electronics, etc. In this situation, the OEM would work out a deal with some private investors and let them take lead in FDI in those non-defence sectors. In turn, those sectors grow and generate exports -- i.e., pull hard-currency -- and you can keep importing weapons. In this situation, you're not focused on building a defence industry, but rather, the wider economy so that you can support defence spending.

Ultimately, the key is crafting forward-thinking, comprehensive policies and enforcing oversight into ensuring that the selling side meets its contractual obligations. We know, for a fact, that Pakistan doesn't do either. Yes, money is a constraint, but at the end of the day, whether it's in cash or through a loan, it's your USD/GBP/Euro that are flying out. It's either upfront today or gradually, but it's your money. So, you have to exert leverage. This would result in some OEMs backing away (esp. in US/Europe), but others -- like in Turkey, Ukraine, Brazil, etc -- who do need your business (for scale, prestige, etc) will talk.


The mistake with the Grifo program is that we bought the 'ToT' to manufacture (or likely assemble it). Instead, we should've tacked a 33% offset in the form of investment in our electronics sector, possibly in semiconductors or at least one higher/less intensive layer (e.g., chip manufacturing?). Sure, that investment alone wouldn't have gotten us there, but it's a huge start that wouldn't have come at the cost of trading an urgent defence need.

The fundamental flaw with our 'defence industry' thinking is that we're not working to build an actual defence "industry." This is why the 'ToT' sticker is always a factor, but never offsets. With offsets, you probably can't say something like "and we make this radar in Pakistan," in the near-term. It doesn't sound as good, but from an economic standpoint (and there are risks with this too, but again, with controls it can work) you have money flowing into development. India dropped ToT from the MMRCA and got 36 Rafales off-the-shelf with offsets -- those offsets are going to feed into something that'll bite us down the line later.

That 'development' could be the German/Turkish model of nurturing a defence industry, or the Canadian model of your supporting your wider economy (so that you can comfortably afford defence), or a hybrid model like Australia, UK, India, etc of both. For this you need to bind defence procurement with economic policy-making and a well-defined goal. This is the biggest difference between us and Turkey, India, and I daresay now, even UAE and KSA.



In all my time on this forum, I've never come across a piece of writing as valuable as this one. And i'm being perfectly serious when I say that this one post carries more weight than the entire contents of this forum accumulated over the past two decades.

You talked about "The fundamental flaw with our 'defence industry' thinking" and I'll try to add a more fundamental dimension to the problem here because it affects every attempt at product development.

I have often thought that decision makers in Pakistanis tend to know what they want, they just don't seem to have a very clear idea of how to get there. And the greatest lesson of our generation they seem to not fathom is that countries only managed to develop a domestic military industry because they had first developed an advanced civilian industrial base, and they only developed that industrial base because they had a world class STEM (Science Technology Engineering and Mathematics) education system.

Imagine the scale of difficulty associated with the nuk program as it would have appeared in the 1960s and 70s and how nobody in their right mind could have believed it could eventually succeed. That was advanced engineering of a scale, albeit in a limited field, that less than 10 countries had achieved. Could it have been possible without the scientists who created the technologies needed in the program? And what they couldn't create they reverse-engineered, and what they couldn't create they acquired from elsewhere and adopted until it could be produced domestically. But none of that would have been even remotely possible without those scientists and engineers. It wasn't done with gobs of cash (they literally raised the cash by begging) but with scientific talent.

Somehow the lesson that should have been driven home from all that has been totally lost and people still believe that it was an arab credit card that Pakistan used for shopping on alibaba dot com. If you have money or powerful allies you can buy stuff like the Gulf states do but you can never create technologies and products. It is the highly trained scientists and engineers you country produces that do. The country's S&T education system is the fundamental building block of every technical advancement. And it should focus fundamentally on driving the development of an advanced and broad industrial base. Only when you have these two, will you be able to grow an advanced defense industry that can innovate and keep up with its rivals. Sadly there is not even a grain of meaningful effort on improving the S&T education system in the country.

This is the one fundamental aspect of the problem that is not being addressed.

Another aspect: Take a country like Turkey. Turkey has been able to develop their own products in the defence space (like the ATAK, the TS-1400 turboshaft and the ATAK-II which are in development) because they have developed an aviation industry bit by bit over the last two or three decades. They weren't just assembling F-16s since the 80s, they were producing sub-components for it and for the civilian airline industry. And they developed the backward linkages that enabled hundreds of small and medium size suppliers to flourish in the country. Now when they start new product development programs, their industry has the technologies already available, and every supplier is coming up with new stuff that is increasingly competitive with the best. They can initiate large scale programs because they now have the industry that can design and build it.

The backward linkages and the domestic supplier base is the other aspect that is also not being addressed in any meaningful way.
 
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In all my time on this forum, I've never come across a piece of writing as valuable as this one. And i'm being perfectly serious when I say that this one post carries more weight than the entire contents of this forum accumulated over the past two decades.

You talked about "The fundamental flaw with our 'defence industry' thinking" and I'll try to add a more fundamental dimension to the problem here because it affects every attempt at product development.

I have often thought that decision makers in Pakistanis tend to know what they want, they just don't seem to have a very clear idea of how to get there. And the greatest lesson of our generation they seem to not fathom is that countries only managed to develop a domestic military industry because they had first developed an advanced civilian industrial base, and they only developed that industrial base because they had a world class STEM (Science Technology Engineering and Mathematics) education system.

Imagine the scale of difficulty associated with the nuk program as it would have appeared in the 1960s and 70s and how nobody in their right mind could have believed it could eventually succeed. That was advanced engineering of a scale, albeit in a limited field, that less than 10 countries had achieved. Could it have been possible without the scientists who created the technologies needed in the program? And what they couldn't create they reverse-engineered, and what they couldn't create they acquired from elsewhere and adopted until it could be produced domestically. But none of that would have been even remotely possible without those scientists and engineers. It wasn't done with gobs of cash (they literally raised the cash by begging) but with scientific talent.

Somehow the lesson that should have been driven home from all that has been totally lost and people still believe that it was an arab credit card that Pakistan used for shopping on alibaba dot com. If you have money or powerful allies you can buy stuff like the Gulf states do but you can never create technologies and products. It is the highly trained scientists and engineers you country produces that do. The country's S&T education system is the fundamental building block of every technical advancement. And it should focus fundamentally on driving the development of an advanced and broad industrial base. Only when you have these two, will you be able to grow an advanced defense industry that can innovate and keep up with its rivals. Sadly there is not even a grain of meaningful effort on improving the S&T education system in the country.

This is the one fundamental aspect of the problem that is not being addressed.

Another aspect: Take a country like Turkey. Turkey has been able to develop their own products in the defence space (like the ATAK, the TS-1400 turboshaft and the ATAK-II which are in development) because they have developed an aviation industry bit by bit over the last two or three decades. They weren't just assembling F-16s since the 80s, they were producing sub-components for it and for the civilian airline industry. And they developed the backward linkages that enabled hundreds of small and medium size suppliers to flourish in the country. Now when they start new product development programs, their industry has the technologies already available, and every supplier is coming up with new stuff that is increasingly competitive with the best. They can initiate large scale programs because they now have the industry that can design and build it.

The backward linkages and the domestic supplier base is the other aspect that is also not being addressed in any meaningful way.
You're 100% correct.

The nuclear weapons program drew its origins from earlier nuclear R&D in Pakistan, especially the scientists who studied in the US and participated in Atoms for Peace.

The unfortunate truth in Pakistan is that there are wrong incentives at every step of the chain. We can ask for more STEM education, but there's always someone around who will mess it up (either by having PhDs in Aerospace teach Grade 5 math), while any gains we make go away to the US, Canada, etc. We can ask for defence industry investment, yet it ends up as a half-job like HIT or POF, which never seem to want to move forward because certain interests will lose.

It's almost as if for every sincere decision-maker in Pakistan, there's a nasty shadow lurking nearby, and it's plotting to screw up the initiative. We had folks beg for a start in gas turbine and engine development in the 1980s/early 1990s (e.g., @messiach ), or folks who tried to even bring a LM manufacturing plant to Pakistan (the business man Liaqut Ali) in the 1940s.

Each time these types of people tried, there was a babu in the way.
 
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