Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[xbat]

come on you guys even manufactured ANKA parts!

 

[HRK]

by the way when PAK army orders something from china do you guys get off - sets ?

all of our high profile defence deals with China are either TOT licence production or JV
which in those cases proved better than off-set programs

 

[xbat]

all of our high profile defence deals with China are either TOT licence production or JV
which in those cases proved better than off-set programs

i hope 4 destroyers/frigates and 8 subs deals from china are at the same level with those contributions.

 

[HRK]

i hope 4 destroyers/frigates and 8 subs deals from china are at the same level with those contributions.

4 submarine are confirmed to be manufactured in Pakistan under TOT, as far as frigates are concern all will be manufactured in China

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

all of our high profile defence deals with China are either TOT licence production or JV
which in those cases proved better than off-set programs

We pay for the ToT, but it's rarely turnkey because we lack all of the necessary industrial inputs. So the engines or turbines, electronics, etc, will come from China or some other country. In most cases, we're a cut above assembly by manufacturing from imported materials. However, that generally constitutes the minority of our input.

The JF-17 is the exception because it is a genuine joint-venture -- we co-funded the development. We should also applaud for China backing a project it had no need for (J-10, L-15), but the JF-17 is the exception. There is a clear reason why we're not hearing of 'joint-ventures' with China anymore, especially for Project Azm.

It seems we got some design transfer with the FAC(M) -- KSEW said the FAC(M)-4 was designed domestically and built without outside help. My guess: it was our first take at managing a ship alone without KoMs.

However, the Hangor SSP doesn't look like it'll go that path -- they'll involve KoMs (per past MoDP reports). But it seems the mini-SSK requirement was to involve greater local input and expertise building.

 

[ziaulislam]

We pay for the ToT, but it's rarely turnkey because we lack all of the necessary industrial inputs. So the engines or turbines, electronics, etc, will come from China or some other country. In most cases, we're a cut above assembly by manufacturing from imported materials. However, that generally constitutes the minority of our input.

The JF-17 is the exception because it is a genuine joint-venture -- we co-funded the development. We should also applaud for China backing a project it had no need for (J-10, L-15), but the JF-17 is the exception. There is a clear reason why we're not hearing of 'joint-ventures' with China anymore, especially for Project Azm.

It seems we got some design transfer with the FAC(M) -- KSEW said the FAC(M)-4 was designed domestically and built without outside help. My guess: it was our first take at managing a ship alone without KoMs.

However, the Hangor SSP doesn't look like it'll go that path -- they'll involve KoMs (per past MoDP reports). But it seems the mini-SSK requirement was to involve greater local input and expertise building.

Military has to build up industry from ground up with private patnership inculding steel mills and all other related industry by supporting and ensuring a regular demand/supply chain..but military just want off the shelf solutions

 

[araz]

The conversation between you does not concern me in the smallest way, as a result of your inventory and doctrine. But it is really unclear how much someone understands these things, who can do uav with 99% domestic contribution and who have been producing licensed F16 with their engines since 1990s, claiming to be 10 years ahead of a country that has been included in the F35 program for years.

Sorry.
To the best of my knowledge Turkey does not produce the F16 engine. Out of interest what parts if at all does it produce? I am all for appreciating the efforts of our Turkish brothers but the engine issue plagues them as well as the Chinese. My post is one to seek an explanation not start an argument
A

 

[araz]

The PN also switched to the PAF's line of thinking. The MILGEM-J -- while a custom design from Turkey -- will come with turnkey ship design expertise transfer so that Pakistan can design its own frigate-class ships. The fourth ship will be just that, our first joint-frigate program. Likewise, the PN is also taking up the LRMPA program on its own, the subsystem selection, integration, testing, etc will be done in Pakistan.

Nope. China has zero interest in such a thing.

Interesting that we are entering key design and manufacturing stage with out a viable special steel industry or any metalurgical research institution ( unless I am unaware). We have previously announced TOT deals which have not translated into much primarily because there was not much to transfer on to. So I hope we dont go down the same route with this one.
On a purely strategic and long term viability issue we need dual use technology as in any industry barring industrial giants like the US, China and the Russians, there is not enough production of material to keep things going. Initial production rates may be kept low for that reason along with adequate manpower development/retention However in the long run we will need "bread and butter" stuff to keep the industry moving during the times of defence related contract dearth. The next question is whether we are looking at reinvesting the money gained from export of defence items in revamping our industrial hubs as well as build viable feeding industry? Whehterh the private sector could be invited into such a complex for basic metallurgical input remains a mute but thought provoking point.
A

1. China generally isn't into offsets
2. Our decision makers are lazy about it (even though our procurement policy requires a 15%+ offset).

Or we do not have the relevant industrial base to claim those offsets? Even today we are importing basic building material for JFT as well as marine projects. It maybe because the production base is not large enough for the necessary investment.
A

i hope 4 destroyers/frigates and 8 subs deals from china are at the same level with those contributions.

Reason for frigates being built in China was lack of capacity at the KSEW.
A

 

[War Historian]

army has to realize that defense equipment is becoming unaffordable very fast and just buying off the shelf isnt going to work.
than it has to provide jobs for millions of pakistanis, and imports dont do that.

its better that home grown equipment cots twice as long as it employs people.

if HAL builds a chopper or LCA at twice price it isnt bad..because HAL also employs 1000s of people....and yet even at twice the price it will still be cheaper than any import option.

Pakistan will need 100s of helicopters, tanks, tank engines, artillery and vehicles..and it can't just keep importing them. It needs to patner with china(who don't need us and thus wont be an easy negotiation), turkey, ukrain adn south Africa.

so far PAF is playing it smart, but i dont see any other service even trying. PAF decision not to buy J10 and instead just focus on jf17 is comendable ..

sooner or later people will start hating the military for spending too much ....

Sir Pakistan govt must take steps in this regard. if they onboard Ukraine on engine research and development that will give them fruitful result. Because in Soviet era Ukrainian developed incredible engineering solutions and they are experts in engine designing after Kazan region of Russia. So in their bad economic time ( and we also not in a good economic situation ) we can ask them to collaborate on new engine for choppers in start. Then if it goes well we can coordinate on jet engine , Tanks and commercial use on trucks and large prime movers. That will give us total independence from any western or eastern black mailing about our military hardware. On software and ECM, EW suits ,SOW we can joint venture with turkey, South Africa and China. Thanks

 

[araz]

Sir Pakistan govt must take steps in this regard. if they onboard Ukraine on engine research and development that will give them fruitful result. Because in Soviet era Ukrainian developed incredible engineering solutions and they are experts in engine designing after Kazan region of Russia. So in their bad economic time ( and we also not in a good economic situation ) we can ask them to collaborate on new engine for choppers in start. Then if it goes well we can coordinate on jet engine , Tanks and commercial use on trucks and large prime movers. That will give us total independence from any western or eastern black mailing about our military hardware. On software and ECM, EW suits ,SOW we can joint venture with turkey, South Africa and China. Thanks

And why do you think Ukraine or anyone will transfer key industrial products for local manufacturing thereby making their own plants redundant? There simply isnt enough demand for us to build them in house with the necessary investment crossing 10sof billions of dollars with no definitive outcome. You need to learn to take baby steps before you can walk. Would you put a toddler to run the 26Km marathon and bet your life's earnings on him to win? Similarly we need to learn to walk before we can run. And just for your info if you think we are running with the aviation industry then I think you are far away from the truth. We do have talent but no cogent industrial backup and Zero research or even concept of the utility of research. All the talent we have is exporting doctors and engineers to the West and now computing wizards.
A

To give you guys an example one of the most valuable and respected degrees to get in the UK is Maths. What would a Pakistani dad or mum day if their son wanted to read Maths at university level. " Saalay kya jaa kay teacher banay ga".
A

 

[LKJ86]

And why do you think Ukraine or anyone will transfer key industrial products for local manufacturing thereby making their own plants redundant? There simply isnt enough demand for us to build them in house with the necessary investment crossing 10sof billions of dollars with no definitive outcome. You need to learn to take baby steps before you can walk. Would you put a toddler to run the 26Km marathon and bet your life's earnings on him to win? Similarly we need to learn to walk before we can run. And just for your info if you think we are running with the aviation industry then I think you are far away from the truth. We do have talent but no cogent industrial backup and Zero research or even concept of the utility of research. All the talent we have is exporting doctors and engineers to the West and now computing wizards.
A

To give you guys an example one of the most valuable and respected degrees to get in the UK is Maths. What would a Pakistani dad or mum day if their son wanted to read Maths at university level. " Saalay kya jaa kay teacher banay ga".
A

Just look at what CAC used to do:

 

[Maxpane]

Just look at what CAC used to do:
View attachment 618156

whats this chart is telling ? any idea?

 

[LKJ86]

whats this chart is telling ? any idea?

I just mean that it is really not so easy to develop the aviation industry.

 

[Maxpane]

I just mean that it is really not so easy to develop the aviation industry.

oh ok but i have a question about jf 17 whats tjis chart is telling can you answer it in jf 17 section plz

 

[HRK]

We pay for the ToT, but it's rarely turnkey because we lack all of the necessary industrial inputs.

I agree to your post but we need to accept our industrial limitations as well which you have duly noted as quoted above and because of this our level of absorption of technology is limited, for example even in JF-17 as per Shahid Latif in some areas our engineers accepted limitations of their knowledge and experience therefore we decided to get whole batches of engineers trained and educated in Chinese universities in exclusive technical disciplines.

Another example from the point of view of Electronics/Avionics you know that we use Grifo radars in our F-7 and Mirage jets and have licence to manufacture them but to my surprise I recently come to know that Grifo radar still use Pentium-75 processor which was introduced in early or mid 90s of the last century and now OEM has discontinued it, I don't know we don't want to update it or we don't have the capacity to update it, but the fact is we are still using Grifo with same processor ......

So the point is with China we have a model for the procurement of defence article which give us basic level of capabilities in that domain with flexibility of integration and modification as per our requirement but it is upto increase those capabilities from basic level