Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Sine Nomine]

Basically, ITAR-free options should be doable.

For off-the-shelf, the only currently available options are the Z-10ME and Tiger, but it was uninterested in the latter (shaky ties with France, costly, questionable long-term support, etc). Otherwise, it'll have to wait for newer ATAK/Z-10 versions, or wait for the Italian AW249 (but with the ITAR-free Safran engine).

Speaking of AW249, that's another option. It's an attack helicopter version of the AW149, so in the 8-9-ton class (around AH-1Z-size). Right now the Italians are leaning towards a GE engine, but the ITAR-free Safran engine (from the AW189K) is on the table for anyone who needs it.

You can get creative and try tackling the attack helicopter as well as utility and special mission helicopter needs with one core platform. So, AW249 for attack and the AW189K for transport, utility, CSAR, naval operations, etc; same engine and critical parts.

The main question though is how willing Leonardo would be to transfer technology and allow Pakistan to take on meaningful work-share. I don't think they'd be as open as the Turks are right now, but the door for that is closing too.

Wouldn't it be a better approach,if ATAK 2 being powered by one of TV3-117 series engines from Motor sich is selected?
Thus replacing need for AH-1Z and T129 altogather?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Wouldn't it be a better approach,if ATAK 2 being powered by one of TV3-117 series engines from Motor sich is selected?
Thus replacing need for AH-1Z and T129 altogather?

We'll need to see how the Turks approach the ATAK-2. I think they want to leverage the TS1400 work to develop a larger engine for the ATAK-2. However, if they want to expedite the ATAK-2, then the TV3-117 can be an option. OTOH, they may lean to a Safran engine (like the Aneto) in the interim until the next TS-variant is ready.

 

[Sine Nomine]

We'll need to see how the Turks approach the ATAK-2. I think they want to leverage the TS1400 work to develop a larger engine for the ATAK-2. However, if they want to expedite the ATAK-2, then the TV3-117 can be an option. OTOH, they may lean to a Safran engine (like the Aneto) in the interim until the next TS-variant is ready.

Safran and all other West based power packs should be no go,citing the fact that Bharat has France under firm grip and down the road we would be falling into bad books of West,if not both in military and economic fields atleast they would hit us in military field by putting sanctions,considering this i propose a partnership with Motor Sich and TAI in field of Helos,our fleet of Mi-17's and Pumas is also pretty much old now sonner or later it would be ready for replacement,getting a deal regarding TOT of TV3-117 series,would fit us,same series can be used for different class of helos from 6 ton to 15 tons.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Safran and all other West based power packs should be no go,citing the fact that Bharat has France under firm grip and down the road we would be falling into bad books of West,if not both in military and economic fields atleast they would hit us in military field by putting sanctions,considering this i propose a partnership with Motor Sich and TAI in field of Helos,our fleet of Mi-17's and Pumas is also pretty much old now sonner or later it would be ready for replacement,getting a deal regarding TOT of TV3-117 series,would fit us,same series can be used for different class of helos from 6 ton to 15 tons.

If you really want to stretch things (for the sake of a big payoff)...consider funding or co-funding the development of a new turboshaft/turboprop in Ukraine.

Basically, the groundwork for it is already there in Motor Sich's MS-500V-series (link), so the key is to extend this into a 2,500 shp engine of our own. We literally pay them to develop one for us in Pakistan with turn-key ToT so that we can takeover after the completion of the design. It'd be our engine, but with Motor Sich's help.

We take this engine and fit it to a next-gen 10-ton helicopter platform that branches into (1) a tandem attack helicopter and (2) utility/CSAR/naval/transport helicopter.

You then live off this engine for the next 50 years.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

All vehicles manufactured for enhanced strength and the army in Turkey is developed or produced using high western systems. The army does not want Russian - Ukrainian - Chinese products in any way. The biggest example is the new Firtina 2 Howitzer, ,Turkey is not choosing Ukraine for engine but choosing another supplier from the Western Country when Germany doesn't sale Mtu Engine.

 

[Sine Nomine]

If you really want to stretch things (for the sake of a big payoff)...consider funding or co-funding the development of a new turboshaft/turboprop in Ukraine.

Basically, the groundwork for it is already there in Motor Sich's MS-500V-series (link), so the key is to extend this into a 2,500 shp engine of our own. We literally pay them to develop one for us in Pakistan with turn-key ToT so that we can takeover after the completion of the design. It'd be our engine, but with Motor Sich's help.

We take this engine and fit it to a next-gen 10-ton helicopter platform that branches into (1) a tandem attack helicopter and (2) utility/CSAR/naval/transport helicopter.

You then live off this engine for the next 50 years.

I have read about what Motor sich offers and it would a little longer and costly way as compared to going for TV3, TV3-117VMA series covers it all for us,mind that countless TV-3's are powering helos out in field and if i am not wrong MS-500V2 can be got engine for T129.
TV3-117VMA would cover our needs from 6 ton to 15 or 20 ton.Sonner or later,we would see a thread discussing PAA Mi-17 and Puma replacement on PDF.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I have read about what Motor sich offers and it would a little longer and costly way as compared to going for TV3, TV3-117VMA series covers it all for us,mind that countless TV-3's are powering helos out in field and if i am not wrong MS-500V2 can be got engine for T129.
TV3-117VMA would cover our needs from 6 ton to 15 or 20 ton.Sonner or later,we would see a thread discussing PAA Mi-17 and Puma replacement on PDF.

MS-500V2 would be under-powered for T129. Best to wait for the TS1400.

 

[Sine Nomine]

MS-500V2 would be under-powered for T129. Best to wait for the TS1400.

My bad i double checked it,it surely is under powered.Only one custom built from TV3-117VMA family would fit the bill.

 

[cabatli_53]

Armies want to favour reliable and proven products and they don't want to sacrifice quality matters for the sake of trade regulations. They will be the people who will die/survive inside these vehicles on most fierce conditions of the war against any threat so army always intend to select quality and reliability options. Our guys will try the all chances until It will be understood there is no way to procure the system requested from West. If all attempts fail, then The direction may be changed to other options. That is the example How political and monetary matters effect the course of events in procurement strategy so Countries sometimes forced to purchase inferior options.

In additions, The replacing the gas turbine engine on an aerial vehicle is not as simple as the one done on a land vehicles. The test, qualification, certification procedure may take a few years more If We want to integrate an Ukrainian engine for Atak helicopters. It is planned that TS-1400 domestic engine will make its maiden flight on T-625 utility helicopters in this year. It is the qualification phase of this engine. When this phase passed, The OK may be given for T-129 Atak helicopters as well but I don't suppose Atak with TS-1400 will be ready before 2022/23.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Armies want to favour reliable and proven products and they don't want to sacrifice quality matters for the sake of trade regulations. They will be the people who will die/survive inside these vehicles on most fierce conditions of the war against any threat so army always intend to select quality and reliability options. Our guys will try the all chances until It will be understood there is no way to procure the system requested from West. If all attempts fail, then The direction may be changed to other options. That is the example How political and monetary matters effect the course of events in procurement strategy so Countries sometimes forced to purchase inferior options.

In additions, The replacing the gas turbine engine on an aerial vehicle is not as simple as the one done on a land vehicles. The test, qualification, certification procedure may take a few years more If We want to integrate an Ukrainian engine for Atak helicopters. It is planned that TS-1400 domestic engine will make its maiden flight on T-625 utility helicopters in this year. It is the qualification phase of this engine. When this phase passed, The OK will be given for T-129 Atak helicopters as well but I don't suppose Atak with TS-1400 will be ready before 2022.

I suspect the ATAK with TS1400 will basically be the improved 6-ton variant. To me, it seems Turkey's basically trying to convince the PAA to take the developmental route. So, when the SSB says, 'we hope Pakistan will be satisfied with the progress of the engine...' it has less to do with an actual helicopter (since it will be at least a couple years out), but other stuff, like co-production, collaboration, etc. That's its main play.

Neither the Gov't of Pakistan or any of the HQs are aching for a war. Even when the possibility of a war is thrust upon us, they'll work to diffuse it before it escalates. We saw this exact policy in play after Swift Retort; folks can read a bunch of things, but if there's one fact, this policy is buying us time. So, let's put the restraint to full use by solving underlying problems; let's avoid the compromises and get the stuff that pulls us ahead.

 

[cabatli_53]

I suspect the ATAK with TS1400 will basically be the improved 6-ton variant. To me, it seems Turkey's basically trying to convince the PAA to take the developmental route. So, when the SSB says, 'we hope Pakistan will be satisfied with the progress of the engine...' it has less to do with an actual helicopter (since it will be at least a couple years out), but other stuff, like co-production, collaboration, etc. That's its main play.

Neither the Gov't of Pakistan or any of the HQs are aching for a war. Even when the possibility of a war is thrust upon us, they'll work to diffuse it before it escalates. We saw this exact policy in play after Swift Retort; folks can read a bunch of things, but if there's one fact, this policy is buying us time. So, let's put the restraint to full use by solving underlying problems; let's avoid the compromises and get the stuff that pulls us ahead.

Timing is an important factor to read the actual intention. T-129 Atak has a natural ties with Italy. Turkish top officials openly stated that Turkey wants to own an attack helicopter that will be solely belong to Turkey. In this aspect, It was always on agenda to develop an 6t Atak based on using existing infrastructure. Futhermore, It is for sure that They are planning to catch the time schedule of TS-1400 engine with T-629 attack helicopter. Under the lights of this roadway, It is certainly being evaluated to integrate TS-1400 for T-629 attack helicopter primerily. Besides, The delivery schedule of T-129 Atak is proceeding and T-129 Blk-2 deliveries will be commenced. When Blk-2 is completed, There won't be any need to produce any further helo for Turkish Army in this class and production lines will be seperated for solely T-629 and Atak-2 helicopters If Turkey can't secure a new contract with any foreign costumers. Until today, US blocked almost all attempts of Turkey regarding T-129 Atak with using engine card (Turkmenistan, Philippiness and Pakistan) and I don't suppose their policy will be changed in following period as well. It takes min 2 years to replace LHTEC engine so It is not logical to integrate a domestic engine on an helicopter which Turkish Army won't need any further so The countries that will request T-129 Atak with TS-1400, will have to pay the additional engineering costs of integration efforts. If we consider all these scenarios, We may reach a result like; Domestic engine will constitutively power up T-629 attack and T-625 utility helicopters as you said.

In recent weeks, TAI officially invited Pakistan into 6ton T-625 utility helicopter program. Joining into T-625 would practically mean to joining into production period of 6ton T-629 attack helicopters as well since both are using almost same hydraulic, rotor, transmission, avionics and engine platforms. For some reasons (I don't know the reason), TAI don't want to talk about T-629 project in open platforms. You can not see this program in their webpage yet so I believe TAI is actually trying to convince Pakistan to update the terms of current deal to proceed the way with T-629 attack helicopters instead of T-129. That is the most logical way for me as well.

 

[KaiserX]

This is assuming the Z-10MEs are good enough. If they aren't, then we'll be back here in 10-15 years spelling out the same issue. Not only that, but the PAA itself said it now wants to "match" the capabilities India's getting with the AH-64E.

So, already the Z-10ME isn't going solve the issue here because it lacks the payload of the AH-64E (if not more, such as the Apache Guardian's ability to control UAVs, etc). I don't want to double-spend on another type when we could've handled this right from the start by telling the Turks (or Chinese) to add X,Y,Z into their platforms.

The Turks are in better light to me because they're upfront about offering other goods (e.g., co-production). This is the activity we need to actually support our own industry. And unlike the Chinese, we do have a little more leverage in that our orders do impact economies-of-scale for the Turks, we can exact other gains. For one thing, we pushed the Turks to offer bespoke credit lines (for T129/MILGEM) when they previously had no policy for such; we can take it a few steps further.

The '30-40 year-old Cobra' point is the cost of not executing a domestic attack helicopter much earlier (or even 10-15 years ago). I know for a fact that folks within the PA and PAF were even bringing the idea to the table (something along the lines of what India did with the Dhruv/LCH, but with China or France -- when such things were put to our table). The PAF and PN sorted it out, it's time for the PA to do the same.

Id rather spend 10-15 years sorting out minor issues than deal with dreams that will never come to fruitation... werent you the same person that had many times suggested PA procure the ATAK and now this new dream helicopter than is atleast a decade off... oh yeah you also suggested using IFVs instead of tanks and even went as far as to suggest the turkish 5th generations fighter and UCAVs when Pakistan is atleast a decade ahead in both technologies compared to the obsolete turks... wonder where this conflict of interest stems from...

Z10 are not good enough. (still)

Only in your imagination.. Z-10 is still better than those obsolete cobra and simply put we have no better realistic option... dream all you want but an 3rd party western option will continued to be sanctioned as they were the last few 4 decades... try to avoid believing fanboys here

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Id rather spend 10-15 years sorting out minor issues than deal with dreams that will never come to fruitation... werent you the same person that had many times suggested PA procure the ATAK and now this new dream helicopter than is atleast a decade off... oh yeah you also suggested using IFVs instead of tanks and even went as far as to suggest the turkish 5th generations fighter and UCAVs when Pakistan is atleast a decade ahead in both technologies compared to the obsolete turks... wonder where this conflict of interest stems from...

Okay, first, anyone following my posts would know that everything I suggest is in direction of advancing Pakistan's own industry and its economy. I'd rather we get into agreements that don't result in a net-foreign currency loss -- let's get some hard-currency back via high-value production, maintenance, etc jobs for outside users.

I'd rather we work with countries that want to partner with us (like Turkey, which has been vocal about it), so that we can get workshare in production and R&D. Because the latter two have proven -- time and time again from Western Europe to Turkey to South Korea/Japan -- to help build local defence sectors, especially among the private sector.

Also, this process above actually frees up foreign currency for other expenditures, such as -- among others -- modernizing the Army's tank, artillery, etc, or helping the PAF and PN with their priorities. So, instead of bottling up all hard currency to just one channel (aviation), the Army can leverage USD et. al later for something else.

Second, I keep bringing up the Turks because, unlike every other country, they (plus South Africa and Ukraine) asked to partner with us. There's a potential opportunity there, and we can use it to advance our base instead of being a constant importer. As a work-share/co-production partner, others would rely on us as well, making us integral to their supply chains and operations. The Chinese don't need us for that, but smaller states -- like Turkey, RSA or Ukraine -- actually do, because they need economies-of-scale and co-funding support.

Third, I didn't "suggest using IFVs instead of tanks," I just asked whether it was feasible -- i.e. I asked a question.

Fourth, 'decade out?' It's not, the ones developing said engine are saying it's within 2 years, and that's at the tail-end of the 8-year timeline they set in 2017 (which they're nearing). If anything, it looks the Turks are expediting the TS-1400's development by 2 years.

Fifth, if Pakistan is 'a decade ahead' in drones and next-gen fighters, then why not collaborate and develop your own solutions? Why divert resources from development to importing from the Chinese (or Americans, Europeans, etc)? Why not just continue with the course you've already laid for NGFs/UCAVs to helicopters too?

Sixth, 'minor issues?' If it was just minor issues, the Army would've stuck with the Z-10, and the Chinese wouldn't have spent 18-24 months instituting key improvements. Do you know what those improvements were? They were for high-altitude operations (a key ops environment, the Z-10 as-is just wasn't cutting it), and better dust or sand filtration. That could've been a problem in desert ops. Those aren't "minor issues."

 

[ziaulislam]

Okay, first, anyone following my posts would know that everything I suggest is in direction of advancing Pakistan's own industry and its economy. I'd rather we get into agreements that don't result in a net-foreign currency loss -- let's get some hard-currency back via high-value production, maintenance, etc jobs for outside users.

I'd rather we work with countries that want to partner with us (like Turkey, which has been vocal about it), so that we can get workshare in production and R&D. Because the latter two have proven -- time and time again from Western Europe to Turkey to South Korea/Japan -- to help build local defence sectors, especially among the private sector.

Also, this process above actually frees up foreign currency for other expenditures, such as -- among others -- modernizing the Army's tank, artillery, etc, or helping the PAF and PN with their priorities. So, instead of bottling up all hard currency to just one channel (aviation), the Army can leverage USD et. al later for something else.

Second, I keep bringing up the Turks because, unlike every other country, they (plus South Africa and Ukraine) asked to partner with us. There's a potential opportunity there, and we can use it to advance our base instead of being a constant importer. As a work-share/co-production partner, others would rely on us as well, making us integral to their supply chains and operations. The Chinese don't need us for that, but smaller states -- like Turkey, RSA or Ukraine -- actually do, because they need economies-of-scale and co-funding support.

Third, I didn't "suggest using IFVs instead of tanks," I just asked whether it was feasible -- i.e. I asked a question.

Fourth, 'decade out?' It's not, the ones developing said engine are saying it's within 2 years, and that's at the tail-end of the 8-year timeline they set in 2017 (which they're nearing). If anything, it looks the Turks are expediting the TS-1400's development by 2 years.

Fifth, if Pakistan is 'a decade ahead' in drones and next-gen fighters, then why not collaborate and develop your own solutions? Why divert resources from development to importing from the Chinese (or Americans, Europeans, etc)? Why not just continue with the course you've already laid for NGFs/UCAVs to helicopters too?

Sixth, 'minor issues?' If it was just minor issues, the Army would've stuck with the Z-10, and the Chinese wouldn't have spent 18-24 months instituting key improvements. Do you know what those improvements were? They were for high-altitude operations (a key ops environment, the Z-10 as-is just wasn't cutting it), and better dust or sand filtration. That could've been a problem in desert ops. Those aren't "minor issues."

army has to realize that defense equipment is becoming unaffordable very fast and just buying off the shelf isnt going to work.
than it has to provide jobs for millions of pakistanis, and imports dont do that.

its better that home grown equipment cots twice as long as it employs people.

if HAL builds a chopper or LCA at twice price it isnt bad..because HAL also employs 1000s of people....and yet even at twice the price it will still be cheaper than any import option.

Pakistan will need 100s of helicopters, tanks, tank engines, artillery and vehicles..and it can't just keep importing them. It needs to patner with china(who don't need us and thus wont be an easy negotiation), turkey, ukrain adn south Africa.

so far PAF is playing it smart, but i dont see any other service even trying. PAF decision not to buy J10 and instead just focus on jf17 is comendable ..

sooner or later people will start hating the military for spending too much ....

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

the turkish 5th generations fighter and UCAVs when Pakistan is atleast a decade ahead in both technologies compared to the obsolete turks... wonder where this conflict of interest stems from..

The conversation between you does not concern me in the smallest way, as a result of your inventory and doctrine. But it is really unclear how much someone understands these things, who can do uav with 99% domestic contribution and who have been producing licensed F16 with their engines since 1990s, claiming to be 10 years ahead of a country that has been included in the F35 program for years.