Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Trango Towers]

If Turkey finally has to alternate the engines of T129, it would be a disaster for the deal.

Far from it. Maybe the turks can come up with a better engine.

 

[SD 10]

Hi,

That is a bad decision---should not have been done---.

Pakistani generals do it to pakistan twice---damage pakistan's integrity---. First by placing the order thru Turkey----knowing very well where the Turkey US and pakistan US relations were headed and now this sabtage again----.

That puts the program back by 5 years---. The Turkish engine has to go thru the growing pains---.

Should have cancelled the order and gone with China---.

But the pakistani Generals and politicians have already spent the kick backs---or bribes as they call---.

Now they cannot go to china---.

Nation sold for dollars one more time---.


.

agreed but a lot of people espacially higher ups are delusional enough to incline towards European and US arms.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Hi,

That is a bad decision---should not have been done---.

Pakistani generals do it to pakistan twice---damage pakistan's integrity---. First by placing the order thru Turkey----knowing very well where the Turkey US and pakistan US relations were headed and now this sabtage again----.

That puts the program back by 5 years---. The Turkish engine has to go thru the growing pains---.

Should have cancelled the order and gone with China---.

But the pakistani Generals and politicians have already spent the kick backs---or bribes as they call---.

Now they cannot go to china---.

Nation sold for dollars one more time---.



Shot down would be an other definition of boeing.

We did extensive testing of both helos. Found T 129 better

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

I thought the whole point was to diversify the assets, to not be dependent on a single supplier? I think you are selling the Turks short, that is a very good helicopter, and one which can probably be powered by a similar Safran engine or a Ukrainian engine.
.



source?

Open fact. She ate 2 lanes of the motor way too. May she rest in hell

 

[araz]

Why move on? Why not give Turks the support they need to get this right? T-129 is a good product. They have their first international contract with Pakistan and Pakistan can afford to wait.

This is how the eco-system will be built. It won't be easy but in the long run, it is laying the foundation of an independent military-industrial complex in the Muslim world that is free from sanctions and arm twisting by the dominating powers.

Pakistan goes the extra mile for Turkey, in the future they too will do it for Pakistan.


Absolutely. Once bitten, twice shy. I think both Pakistan and Turkey can relate to that.

Thank you for a very good post. People need to understand the slight reservations that have arisen in the Pak China relationship. Pakistan has now a few options so will no longer want to be just a buyer which is what the Chinese want to push the PAF/PAA towards. I think in this case the PAA wants a western oriented shatem with an engine which is Non ITAR and therefore not prone to sanctioning. The point about developing an ecosystem with partial build ofownplatofrmis the way to go before getting independence. As Turkeyis itself progressing towards that directionit needs partners and investors so is willing to offer a lot more offsets as compared to the Chinese.
I think the Z10 will eventully make it into PAA but as an off the shelf product.
A

 

[dBSPL]

Thank you for a very good post. People need to understand the slight reservations that have arisen in the Pak China relationship. Pakistan has now a few options so will no longer want to be just a buyer which is what the Chinese want to push the PAF/PAA towards. I think in this case the PAA wants a western oriented shatem with an engine which is Non ITAR and therefore not prone to sanctioning. The point about developing an ecosystem with partial build ofownplatofrmis the way to go before getting independence. As Turkeyis itself progressing towards that directionit needs partners and investors so is willing to offer a lot more offsets as compared to the Chinese.
I think the Z10 will eventully make it into PAA but as an off the shelf product.
A

Sir, you've made a very accurate point. As everyone knows, SSB has no huge laborforce resources or no huge defense budgets like biggest suppliers. And we don't have great subsidy and unlimited technical support like Israel. On the contrary, as you can see, we are exposed to covered or open embargo initiatives in all areas. But SSB's 2010-2030 plannings has focused heavily on design capability acquisition, subsystems/microsystems and even materials/metalurgy and manufacturing technologies. There are currently around 700 important defence projects, and 90% of them are not a vehicle or an end-system. Billions of dollars are spent on defence-industrial infrastructure investments every year. The reason for giving this anecdote is to explain how SSB's budget and resources are used at its limits.
Turkey's main aim is to achieve a completely independent position in the supply chain. Therefore, unlike traditional suppliers, developing long-term strategic partnerships with countries with high industrial capacity/potential and strong armies/traditions, bringing theirs defense industry into the our ecosystem will give us a new and independent path.

If we look at TAI, its traditional system integrator from 80s, has focused on design and test capabilities over the past 15 years. In recent years, the first generation of domestic products began to market. The number of platforms it produces now will double in just 10 years. The size of the staff will increase more than twice within 15 years. Nevertheless, the company needs unity(joint forces with common vision) to ensure sustainability in large-scale projects. But, also real change in policies starts from here.

I know that sounds ridiculous to most of PDF members, but Turkish long-term policy makers believes that a third path is possible which is independent from the Eastern bloc, or the western block. Therefore we constantly say that, Turkey's offers of military technologies to other countries are used as a lever for creating long-term strategic alliances not about the money for the moment.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Sir, you've made a very accurate point. As everyone knows, SSB has no huge laborforce resources or no huge defense budgets like biggest suppliers. But SSB's 2010-2030 plannings has focused heavily on design capability acquisition, subsystems/microsystems and even materials/metalurgy and manufacturing technologies. There are currently around 700 important defence projects, and 95% of them are not a vehicle or an end-system. Billions of dollars are spent on defence-industrial infrastructure investments every year. The reason for giving this anecdote is to explain how SSB's budget and resources are used at its limits.
Turkey's main aim is to achieve a completely independent position in the supply chain. Therefore, unlike traditional suppliers, developing long-term strategic partnerships with countries with high industrial capacity/potential and strong armies/traditions, bringing theirs defense industry into the our ecosystem will give us a new and independent path.

If we look at TAI, its traditional system integrator from 80s, has focused on design and test capabilities over the past 15 years. In recent years, the first generation of domestic products began to market. The number of platforms it produces now will double in just 10 years. The size of the staff will increase more than twice within 15 years. Nevertheless, the company needs unity(joint forces with common vision) to ensure sustainability in large-scale projects. But, also real change in policies starts from here.

I know that sounds ridiculous to most of PDF members, but Turkish long-term policy makers believes that a third path is possible which is independent from the Eastern bloc, or the western block. Therefore we constantly say that, Turkey's offers of military technologies to other countries are used as a lever for creating long-term strategic alliances not about the money for the moment.

Not everyone follows Turkey as rigorously as the Turkish members here, so there's measured skepticism about whether Turkey is working on these projects and, to what extent, it can succeed in short-order. I do my best to follow, but I too am behind 2-3 months from where you guys are at, and most others, have less context.

But it all doesn't matter. Ultimately, it's up to the actual decision makers, and the Pakistani decision makers will have much more information about Turkey's work than any of us forum members here. We can only talk about the TS1400 reports, I imagine the PAA will actually get to see it in person (incl. development of the T629).

And the PAA also has to measure industrial ideals with bitter current realities; a project in the pipeline isn't going to help the boots on the ground, but Z-10ME will.

The PAF bought itself time for AZM with JF-17, but the PAA has no such luxury (it might have had if the US released the AH-1Z on CSF/FMF).

 

[MastanKhan]

I thought the whole point was to diversify the assets, to not be dependent on a single supplier? I think you are selling the Turks short, that is a very good helicopter, and one which can probably be powered by a similar Safran engine or a Ukrainian engine.
.



source?

You are a 29 years old---don't you read news papers---and if you read them don't you retain any information---.

We did extensive testing of both helos. Found T 129 better

Hi,

So let me ask you this---your little 5 years old girl is dying of pneumonia---the doctor says wait for two months we have a new medication coming---!!!!

Now go tell your wife of your decision to wait---.

Right from day one---this deal was a FAILURE---.

 

[araz]

Not everyone follows Turkey as rigorously as the Turkish members here, so there's measured skepticism about whether Turkey is working on these projects and, to what extent, it can succeed in short-order. I do my best to follow, but I too am behind 2-3 months from where you guys are at, and most others, have less context.

But it all doesn't matter. Ultimately, it's up to the actual decision makers, and the Pakistani decision makers will have much more information about Turkey's work than any of us forum members here. We can only talk about the TS1400 reports, I imagine the PAA will actually get to see it in person (incl. development of the T629).

And the PAA also has to measure industrial ideals with bitter current realities; a project in the pipeline isn't going to help the boots on the ground, but Z-10ME will.

The PAF bought itself time for AZM with JF-17, but the PAA has no such luxury (it might have had if the US released the AH-1Z on CSF/FMF).

It is precisely the sort of pressures of lack of platforms which the PAF faced led to ingenious solutions like the JFT. Not ground breaking esrth shaking projects but based on reality and with growth potential. At this point in time even if we ordered the Z10 it will take 12 to 18 months to negotiate a price then two to three yrs before the product starts arriving then another 2-4 years till enough familiarity is achieved with the sustem for it to matter. Even on fast track we wont get anywhere within 3-4 years. So essentially for the boots on the ground it is symantics as to whether it is T129 or Z10. They both wont arrive for 5years at least in any meaningful numbers to be a force multiplier. So we might as well wait forthe Turks and get the maximum benefit from this project. I dare say peoplein PA are keeoing a fairly close eye on the project. The benefits can be at multiple levels which is why PAA is waiting patiently for the T129.
My assessment so feel free to disagree.
A

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It is precisely the sort of pressures of lack of platforms which the PAF faced led to ingenious solutions like the JFT. Not ground breaking esrth shaking projects but based on reality and with growth potential. At this point in time even if we ordered the Z10 it will take 12 to 18 months to negotiate a price then two to three yrs before the product starts arriving then another 2-4 years till enough familiarity is achieved with the sustem for it to matter. Even on fast track we wont get anywhere within 3-4 years. So essentially for the boots on the ground it is symantics as to whether it is T129 or Z10. They both wont arrive for 5years at least in any meaningful numbers to be a force multiplier. So we might as well wait forthe Turks and get the maximum benefit from this project. I dare say peoplein PA are keeoing a fairly close eye on the project. The benefits can be at multiple levels which is why PAA is waiting patiently for the T129.
My assessment so feel free to disagree.
A

I agree. In fact, if GHQ truly believes in this 'Hybrid War' narrative it's promoting, then it should have absolutely no problem with waiting for the Turks. We are not fighting an open war for a while, and the GOP/GHQ are so obviously looking to deescalate matters for the time being. For the PAA, it would mean reworking the attack helicopter plans around a new ITAR-free system -- T629 -- that it could build into a large fleet over the long-term.

 

[dBSPL]

This engine will be delivered to TAI for T625 tests within next months

https://twitter.com/x/status/1217469051108253697

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

This engine will be delivered to TAI for T625 tests within next months

https://twitter.com/x/status/1217469051108253697

DAMN This is thickk

 

[hussain0216]

Sir, you've made a very accurate point. As everyone knows, SSB has no huge laborforce resources or no huge defense budgets like biggest suppliers. And we don't have great subsidy and unlimited technical support like Israel. On the contrary, as you can see, we are exposed to covered or open embargo initiatives in all areas. But SSB's 2010-2030 plannings has focused heavily on design capability acquisition, subsystems/microsystems and even materials/metalurgy and manufacturing technologies. There are currently around 700 important defence projects, and 90% of them are not a vehicle or an end-system. Billions of dollars are spent on defence-industrial infrastructure investments every year. The reason for giving this anecdote is to explain how SSB's budget and resources are used at its limits.
Turkey's main aim is to achieve a completely independent position in the supply chain. Therefore, unlike traditional suppliers, developing long-term strategic partnerships with countries with high industrial capacity/potential and strong armies/traditions, bringing theirs defense industry into the our ecosystem will give us a new and independent path.

If we look at TAI, its traditional system integrator from 80s, has focused on design and test capabilities over the past 15 years. In recent years, the first generation of domestic products began to market. The number of platforms it produces now will double in just 10 years. The size of the staff will increase more than twice within 15 years. Nevertheless, the company needs unity(joint forces with common vision) to ensure sustainability in large-scale projects. But, also real change in policies starts from here.

I know that sounds ridiculous to most of PDF members, but Turkish long-term policy makers believes that a third path is possible which is independent from the Eastern bloc, or the western block. Therefore we constantly say that, Turkey's offers of military technologies to other countries are used as a lever for creating long-term strategic alliances not about the money for the moment.

If only the Muslim world could be more United

From the Arabs to the Iranians to South East Asia we have the numbers and finance to do something special but are hamstrung by our own issues

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

By far I personally have only seen Pakistanis who still beleive in islamic brotherhood rest are all worshipping either nationalism or sectarianism.

If only the Muslim world could be more United

From the Arabs to the Iranians to South East Asia we have the numbers and finance to do something special but are hamstrung by our own issues

 

[dBSPL]

By far I personally have only seen Pakistanis who still beleive in islamic brotherhood rest are all worshipping either nationalism or sectarianism.

I believe in secular state order. Can this prevent us from becoming brothers?