Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[LKJ86]

What do you think the benchmark for the Turkish engines would be????

If Turkey finally has to alternate the engines of T129, it would be a disaster for the deal.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

If Turkey finally has to alternate the engines of T129, it would be a disaster for the deal.

Going for the indigenous engines has always been the ultimate Turkish objective. The Pak deal is an icing in the cake...

 

[LKJ86]

Going for the indigenous engines has always been the ultimate Turkish objective. The Pak deal is an icing in the cake...

Maybe you underestimated the meaning of time, especially in competition.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Maybe you underestimated the meaning of time, especially in competition.

Hence, Pak would get the best of the deal for the early bird gets the worm...

 

[doorstar]

If Turkey finally has to alternate the engines of T129, it would be a disaster for the deal.

turks have leverage, it's like holding a double-barrelled shotgun to someone's head and saying: you agree? victim says: sir, yes sir

 

[That Guy]

The ATAK helicopters will start to fly with the TEI engine from 2021 onwards. (SSB's official statement)

But what I don't understand that the main reason for this extension is the engine problem? Has the US reported its final decision to Pakistan?

Currently the production line of this helicopter is active, in other words LHTEC-CTS800 sets continue to arrive. Total deliveries increased to more than 50s and the mainframe of the helicopters produced for Pakistan is on the production line.

As far as I know, the US also did not deliver Pakistan's AH-1Z helicopters with serial numbers 786-064 and 786-066 . Why is the US pushing Pakistan so hard?

Why do you think? Once it became clear that the war in Afghanistan became unwinnable, the US government, house, and Senate did what they usually do, find a scape goat.

Ironically, Pres Obama actually wanted the military sales (like the f16s) to go through, but he was vetoed by the Senate.

Pres Trump was antagonistic towards Pakisran, right from the beginning. He made it clear that once he won the election, he'd punish Pakistan. When he came to power, he canceled all military sales and support towards Pakistan, removed all Pakistani personnel attending US military colleges, and stopped all aid programs.

Its only in recent months that relations between Pakistan and the US are finally becoming warmer, but they'll likely never go back to the way they were, as neither side trusts the other like they used to.

As for the T129, if the Turks can successfully build and integrate their own engine, Pakistan will probably be far happier.

 

[dBSPL]

turks have leverage, it's like holding a double-barrelled shotgun to someone's head and saying: you agree? victim says: sir, yes sir

Pakistan didnt know that these helicopters have a LHTEC engine? And what happened Pakistan's 9 Ah-1Zs? Is there no connection between the two problems?

This engine is still coming to Turkey as well, but can not be exported to Pakistan. As far as I know, the United States has no final official decision about reject or approval. As one aspect, subject is related on US blockades on TR's sales... on the other side, its more about Pak-US relationships.

 

[Gryphon]

The ATAK helicopters will start to fly with the TEI engine from 2021 onwards. (SSB's official statement)

But what I don't understand that the main reason for this extension is the engine problem? Has the US reported its final decision to Pakistan?

Currently the production line of this helicopter is active, in other words LHTEC-CTS800 sets continue to arrive. Total deliveries increased to more than 50s and the mainframe of the helicopters produced for Pakistan is on the production line.

As far as I know, the US also did not deliver Pakistan's AH-1Z helicopters with serial numbers 786-064 and 786-066 . Why is the US pushing Pakistan so hard?

Pakistan didnt know that these helicopters have a LHTEC engine? And what happened Pakistan's 9 Ah-1Zs? Is there no connection between the two problems?

This engine is still coming to Turkey as well, but can not be exported to Pakistan. As far as I know, the United States has no final official decision about reject or approval. As one aspect, subject is related on US blockades on TR's sales... on the other side, its more about Pak-US relationships.

12× AH-1Z's have been withheld for payment reasons - the US wants Pak to pay with national funds while the latter prefers utilizing CSF/FMF.

Regarding the T129's engine, the US has pulled a "Killing two birds with one stone" here. One is TAI, i.e., the prospect of ATAK / ATAK-2 with LHTEC/GE engines competing against American companies worldwide and the other is PAA, presently flying an ageing Cobra fleet, forced to part with national funds.

You may say there are indigenous engines under development, but those don't help improving the short-to-medium term chances of ATAK (and later ATAK-2) since other competitors (Chinese, Italians, etc) are also working on new/improved attack helos.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

12× AH-1Z's have been withheld for payment reasons - the US wants Pak to pay with national funds while the latter prefers utilizing CSF/FMF.

Regarding the T129's engine, the US has pulled a "Killing two birds with one stone" here. One is TAI, i.e., the prospect of ATAK / ATAK-2 with LHTEC/GE engines competing against American companies worldwide and the other is PAA, presently flying an ageing Cobra fleet, forced to part with national funds.

You may say there are indigenous engines under development, but those don't help improving the short-to-medium term chances of ATAK (and later ATAK-2) since other competitors (Chinese, Italians, etc) are also working on new/improved attack helos.

12 AH 1Zs against 30 ATAK1s.

 

[python-000]

The ATAK helicopters will start to fly with the TEI engine from 2021 onwards. (SSB's official statement)

But what I don't understand that the main reason for this extension is the engine problem? Has the US reported its final decision to Pakistan?

Currently the production line of this helicopter is active, in other words LHTEC-CTS800 sets continue to arrive. Total deliveries increased to more than 50s and the mainframe of the helicopters produced for Pakistan is on the production line.

As far as I know, the US also did not deliver Pakistan's AH-1Z helicopters with serial numbers 786-064 and 786-066 . Why is the US pushing Pakistan so hard?

Because my bro Us want to keep us away from each other...

Maybe you underestimated the meaning of time, especially in competition.

Yes Pakistan can go for Z-10ME for urgent bases from China if its possible what's your opinion @KLJ86

 

[Nasr]

In my view, going for T-129s was fraught with liabilities from the get go. Engine issue was just to start things off. There will be other issues that will emerge if Pakistan continues to pursue this deal. Let's face facts, Europe is and will always be under Zionist-America's thumb. So it's useless to select Western platforms when it comes to big ticket acquisitions.

We have seen how America blocked CWF for Pakistan's contribution towards WoT. Followed buy asset acquisition, such as AH-1Zs that are locked away in storage in America. The engine for T-129s, I mean come on, it was gullible to think otherwise.

Proven partners, China (JF-17s/Type-054s/Al-Khalids), Russia (RD-93s, Mi-35s). The track records speaks for itself, as neither country has ever used defense acquisitions of their clients, as political leverage against their clients.

My advice to Pakistan's military establishment is to approach Russia on constructive terms, which would see Pakistan set-up a comprehensive long-lead spare parts supply, establishing a fully concurrent M.R.O facility, which at a later stage will be transformed into a manufacturing facility. The Mi-28 is a very powerful heavy helicopter gunship and can be better suited to Pakistan Army Aviation divisions. Similar arrangements, over gradual progression, ought to be made for the Z-10 Chinese helicopter gunships.

Pakistan Army can utilize these gunship with deadly consequences for the enemy, in conjunction with it's armored formations. Mechanized Infantry should be equipped with mobile SAM systems that support armored columns.

 

[Great Janjua]

TAI officials have started again and again that they are offering Pakistan joint production off Helicopters

Pakistan has NO time


Haven't heard any official news, sounds like some YouTube video or something.


Why have redundancies? Who's going to pay for both systems

 

[flameboard]

I imagine a new engine could take a decade to develop why is there such a high confidence one would be ready shortly?

Even if Turkey develops new engine it will be subjected to rigorous testing in Pakistan under different climates and weather conditions. This mean it will take at least a year for Pakistan to decide it new engine is good enough to operate in pakistani conditions. Turkish engine is new and will have its issues so if we don't get US engines then this deal is as good as dead. Pakistan will most likely approach china or russia for another deal.

Russia would probs be a good source for alternative engine options or entirely different heli with similar specs

 

[ARMalik]

Ok assuming that new Turkish local engine does become a reality, then the new Helicopter with the new engine would need to go through the rigorous testing process which will take time. So I don't think one year extension is enough unless there is something else in the pipeline as an interim measure.

 

[War Historian]

Sir, last year i read a news about TS1400 , that engine has passed all the tests, if its true then congrats to our Turkish brothers. Pakistan must wait for this engine. Because its a sanctions free for future.

I also need to give a little information about this polemics:

The final explanation about engine was made by Prof. Akşit, GM of TEI.

In the TS1400 project, the core engine was ignited in early 2017. More than hundreds of test procedures were successfully passed for 2 years. The 1500HP variant of engine was assambled in 2019 and succesfully worked. Production planning activities have been ongoing since 2019. The first engine for the T-625 multipurpose helicopter will be delivered in 2020 and will make its first flight this year.Of course, the integration of this engine into the Atak helicopter coul be created a delay for Pakistan, but this turboshaft program of TEI is in more forward phase than you think.