Pak Navy Should Reduce The # of Subs To Buy Type 054 Frigates

[Blue Marlin]

yes that is a destroyer of 8000t but do you know the displacement of new frigates of indian navy they are almost close to the displacement of kolkata class destroyers.
The frigate displacement will be 6000t+
So you can think how much punch our frigates will have.
Also the following destroyers will be well above 10,000 tonnes.

the weight of a frigate does not indicate its capability. it only demonstrated its size and lack of capability

is it going to be comparison thread or just one specific hello

you just have to wait and see

 

[wowler]

he weight of a frigate does not indicate its capability. it only demonstrated its size and lack of capability

Lol isn't it that the more displacement the more capabilities and heavy weapons it can accommodate.
The displacement is also important when deciding which vessel to buy.
The p15a will have state of the art weapons and will feature stealth.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

well your right to the extent that your navy does not need huge ships. but i would think the type 54/ab it the largest they should go. in a war defence is good but you need offensive capabilities. if not the adversary will pick at you until your gone.
you need money for this

from what i know next year your going to be classed as an emerging market, investors will look at pakistan twice and will more likely invest there. obviously the government needs incentives to make this happen on a smoother flow of investment.

once you have the budget you can expand in to the Arabian sea were most of the oil and trade happens and your more of a force to be reckoned with. you better be quick india moving there too.

This is true as well... PN would wait for larger ships like 2 or 3 more years but within that time it would like to have built atleast a good deterrent (sea denial) capability.

 

[araz]

This is true as well... PN would wait for larger ships like 2 or 3 more years but within that time it would like to have built atleast a good deterrent (sea denial) capability.

With a fast dwindling sea surface assets I dont think PN can hold out much longer . With the type 21s fast reaching their decommissioning date PN will need replacements soon. The OHPs and type 23s did not materialise. So I think we may have to lease ships from China while we build resources for the next acquisition round.
Araz

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

With a fast dwindling sea surface assets I dont think PN can hold out much longer . With the type 21s fast reaching their decommissioning date PN will need replacements soon. The OHPs and type 23s did not materialise. So I think we may have to lease ships from China while we build resources for the next acquisition round.
Araz

I would disagree to some parts of your statement...The type 21's could still be used for an other 5 years though they might be for basic training and coastal defence. Leasing of Chinese ships can not be ruled out but it would be putting all your eggs in one basket.

You are aware that PN had tried to purchase new Type 23's and now they did not want the old ones as the upgrades cost a lot. Once again PN is thinking of getting New equipment.

 

[Blue Marlin]

I would disagree to some parts of your statement...The type 21's could still be used for an other 5 years though they might be for basic training and coastal defence. Leasing of Chinese ships can not be ruled out but it would be putting all your eggs in one basket.

You are aware that PN had tried to purchase new Type 23's and now they did not want the old ones as the upgrades cost a lot. Once again PN is thinking of getting New equipment.

What do you think would be there next purchase? Realistically

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

What do you think would be there next purchase? Realistically

Some things for the Marines...

 

[Mo12]

Does Pakistan have facilities and technology to start making its own warships yet?

How effective is the P-8i against submarines?

 

[araz]

What do you think would be there next purchase? Realistically

Chinese only. I don't think PN will be able to afford the money for a new ship from western sources. We will get an updated higher tonnage type 22 spinoff with medium range SAMs. Type 23s are no longer being built and 045 will be unaffordable. The frencu will fleece you if they sell you anything and the turkish products are deemed too expensive. So unless we go for Korean products as they have looked at upgrading our shipyard.
Araz

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Chinese only. I don't think PN will be able to afford the money for a new ship from western sources. We will get an updated higher tonnage type 22 spinoff with medium range SAMs. Type 23s are no longer being built and 045 will be unaffordable. The frencu will fleece you if they sell you anything and the turkish products are deemed too expensive. So unless we go for Korean products as they have looked at upgrading our shipyard.
Araz

May be... More chances are of getting the Marines equipment like small subs to replace the ones KWSB produces. There is also a possibility to add more fast attack and special purpose crafts.

Korean products would take time as PN requires to build them in Pakistan. The Turkish design can be bought and its power plants can be replaced by Ukrainian ones reducing the costs.

 

[Super Falcon]

Y

scrap the deal spend money for demolish madrasas and open schools .

yaaar bhai all madrasas are not bad madrasas if work right way our nation will flourish destroying them is very easy but in hell what you have to say to ALLAH without any proof u destroy all madrasas bdcoz few madrasas was provoking for terrorism

Type 052 Destoters and type 054 frigates along with yuan sub do wonders for PN

 

[PakShaheen79]

This is the most relevant threat as far as Pakistan's key strategic issues are concerned. Congratulations Sir MK.

Now coming to the debate. I think the most basic question which need to be answered is about the doctrine of PN.

What is the current and future doctrine of PN?
What is the strategic role of PN in Pakistan's overall active-defense mil strategy?
Is PN getting adequate funds for this national mil strategy in context of fluid nature of regional geopolitics?
Is it lack of resources or lack of vision and mismanagement of priorities which has led PN in its current predicament?

The answers to these questions are essential, if not critical, in order to move this debate forward towards its logical conclusion.

Unfortunately, it is evident that Pakistan Navy's doctrine is still "Coastal Defense" with very very limited Sea Denial capabilities. This doctrinal approach leaves very less space for any aggressive thinking as far as operational planning of current PN fleet is concerned. But, are the Coastal Defense capabilities of PN are adequate for modern times when the threats is being posed by modern guided missile destroyers and frigates and of course by aircraft from aircraft carriers, instead of small sized warships based on 1950s or 1960s technology? IMHO, PN still lacks on couple of crucial aspects here. ( Number of surfaced and sub-surfaced vessels, credible SAM capabilities).

Security and Threat Matrix: Indian Guided Missile Destroyers and Balance of Maritime Power in Arabian Sea

Purchase of 8 SSK will only enable PN to perform this role of coastal defense adequately. It is important to understand here that not all the submarines would be deployed simultaneously. So having a larger sub force makes complete sense. But here comes the point when the question raised by Mastan Khan in his first post of this threat needs to be answered.
In my opinion, what MK proposed is more logical and practical and would be more beneficial for PN in the long run.

We know Chinese have been making big strides in defense R&D for last two to three decades. What China is producing today is based on 1990's era technologies as far as Naval vessels are concerned. But by the end of this decade, they will bring in production what they researched in last decade. Now, if we today decide to buy 8 subs based on 1990's tech we will complete the delivers around 2023-24 timeline. By then, Chinese will be producing more advanced subs. So, why not split the deal for 4 existing platforms (S-20) and 4 future projects (it may be a JV) and meanwhile focus on strengthening Naval Aviation Wing of PN. I am not putting surface vessel in priority #2 here because they are a)- Expensive b)-takes much more time then inducting Aircrafts (MPA, Multirole Strike platforms etc.)

Naval aviation is more relevant and demands more immediate attention of strategic planners who wants to strengthen currently non-existent sea-denial capability of PN. Naval aviation will do it along with subs. This role can not be performed by either subs or aircraft alone!

Back in 2012, I did write a research paper on "Eurasian geopolitics and Emerging Trends of Naval Aviation in Indian Ocean". It was published by National Defense University Islamabad. It can be downloaded from below link if someone wants to know the details of my argument in favor of Naval Aviation.

Eurasian Geopolitics and Emerging Trends of Naval Aviation in Indian Ocean | Shahzad M Roomi - Academia.edu

But does that means surface vessels are to be ignored? Not at all. But my view is before choosing the platform, we must come up with the answers of questions which I raised earlier in this post. Unfortunately, in our political elite and military leadership there are very few minds which are capable of addressing complex issues in defense doctrine of the country and its linkage to the statecraft like foreign policy and military diplomacy.

Americans know what role Aircraft carriers play in their foreign policy of maintaining leadership position in the world, Indians are producing larger destroyers and frigates along with expansion of their air wing because political goal is clear; "to make Indian Ocean, India's ocean" ... So how critical Arabian Sea is for Pakistan? What role we want to play in this sea? How far we are willing to go for the realization of this goal? These need to be answered. The answer will determine what kind of surface fleet we will be needing. Fast Missile Boats and Corvettes or Larger Frigates and guided missile Destroyers?

To me right now, Pakistan's political and military leadership must revisit geopolitics of Indian Ocean and reassess the requirements of PN's role in Arabian Sea. PN must able to project credible maritime fire power instead of continuing to follow Coastal defense doctrine. The imbalance between IN and PN has gone horribly wrong and needs to be restored without bringing N-word in this debate. So, Yes we do need heavier surface vessels along with more subs then what we are negotiation right now. But since the time is linear in nature, first we will have to ensure we do have credible coastal defense and for that PN must concentrate on larger fleet of heavy FACs and Corvettes armed with latest sensors and long range anti-ship missiles. This way PN will able to maintain its presence all along coastline. But if the political goal in context of Arabian Sea changes, this surface fleet plan would also move towards Frigates and Destroyers.

Second Strike Capability: I think Pakistan will have to bring maritime balance of power ( by it I mean the capability through conventional means which can ensure stability in Arabian Sea) without lower the nuclear threshold any further. Due to Indian Cold Start Doctrine (CSD) it has been lowered already. From pure political and diplomatic view point lowering the N-threshold is not a wise strategy. Second Strike capability is critical to ensure nuclear triad but PN must not devise all operational plans based on this capability. N-Strike is always a political decision. PN must develop itself as a potent force in conventional means.

Budget: A lot has been said here about lack of financial resources. Well, to me ... finances is not the problem. It is the political will to transform PN from a small defense fleet into a ruthless force. The N-tale of Pakistan is best example in this regard. It was a problem only as long as political vision was not there. Once Bhutto announced that we will have it at any cost, it started to become reality which eventually manifested in May 1998. So, stop looking at financial figures and start focusing on political will of Islamabad about PN, Arabian Sea etc.

 

[Super Falcon]

Agree with u pak shaheen im saying it also since pn bought 8 subs of same class looks stupid and short sighted thinking

Pakistan GHQ should now look seriously what type of naval chiefs are coming most of them are dumb with no clear ambition most of them talk bla bla and bla do nothing all the time they sleep pn is very silent

U214 deal
Greece frigate deal
Milegam deal
All these they only talk but do nothing on it

Seriously pakistan nave have to be pro active F 22 frigates if you take out and Z 8 heli
Our navy is 1960 era navy still full of junks and 30 yeard budget they wasted

Small boats they buy wont make any difference with indian guided missile destroyers

Gwadar port is going to be hub of international ships IN will create some doubts by sending ships to bring somd doubts on merchant ships so we need potent navy to atleadt give it self chance

4 to 8 new destroyer needed
10 Frigates of 2 different classes more than 6000 tons
6 corvetes in next ten years

And JH 7 tyoe fighter force for navy

 

[Lavrentiy]

Pakistan GHQ should now look seriously what type of naval chiefs are coming most of them are dumb with no clear ambition most of them talk bla bla and bla do nothing all the time they sleep pn is very silent

U214 deal
Greece frigate deal
Milegam deal
All these they only talk but do nothing on it

Admirals of the Navy have no power at all. These Admirals have to provide the lion's share of the kick-backs to the Army Generals so that these deals can get through.

If Army Generals are given decent kick-backs, the navy would get some vessels.

 

[Super Falcon]

Admirals of the Navy have no power at all. These Admirals have to provide the lion's share of the kick-backs to the Army Generals so that these deals can get through.

If Army Generals are given decent kick-backs, the navy would get some vessels.

I disagree with you navy is not like mqm batha mafia i have big question mark of naval training there minds are very weak if u compare admirals in our navy they barely have any role most of them are short sighted and miss uses their power army should look naval issue seriously if army can lower its budget to 15 to 20 percent and increase to naval budget i think it can do better as army will be satisfied too that naval force is also well arned if we dont buy new tank wont make difference we have good stock pile of tanks for atleadt 5 years and divert that money to navy