Pak Navy Should Reduce The # of Subs To Buy Type 054 Frigates

[Signalian]

Subs are the main offensive weapon for PN and the greatest threat to IN vessels. The element of stealth and surprise coupled with deadly missiles with pin point accuracy cannot be achieved fully by a Frigate. PN is defensive in nature and with such small fleet, the element of offense comes through a sub.

 

[Quwa]

Subs are the main offensive weapon for PN and the greatest threat to IN vessels. The element of stealth and surprise coupled with deadly missiles with pin point accuracy cannot be achieved fully by a Frigate. PN is defensive in nature and with such small fleet, the element of offense comes through a sub.

The frigate (in PN's case) would not be an offensive platform in as much as a means to defend the submarines and other surface ships (e.g. FACs, tankers, supply ships, etc) from enemy aircraft. It's no secret that the IN has been building a formidable naval air arm composed of some the best systems available in the world today, and these assets in full swing will threaten the PN's submarines. It is vital that a modern frigate with area wide (~50km) and possibly even wide area (~100km) anti-air capabilities be acquired to help defend against the IN's air arm.

To be honest I don't think the PN is ignoring this issue, but the lack of funds is forcing it to tolerate a sharply unfavourable situation. However, I think modern frigates with proper air defence capabilities will come, eventually.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

When are we getting our Subs

 

[Signalian]

The frigate (in PN's case) would not be an offensive platform in as much as a means to defend the submarines and other surface ships (e.g. FACs, tankers, supply ships, etc) from enemy aircraft. It's no secret that the IN has been building a formidable naval air arm composed of some the best systems available in the world today, and these assets in full swing will threaten the PN's submarines. It is vital that a modern frigate with area wide (~50km) and possibly even wide area (~100km) anti-air capabilities be acquired to help defend against the IN's air arm.

To be honest I don't think the PN is ignoring this issue, but the lack of funds is forcing it to tolerate a sharply unfavourable situation. However, I think modern frigates with proper air defence capabilities will come, eventually.

Diving falcon from PDF, is that you ?

Anti air role can be handed over to an aircraft squadron rather than a frigate for that purpose. 12 aircraft of one squadron on CAP or a frigate or two dedicated for AA role?again doesn't that come between J11 or type 054. A frigate is still a bigger target of opportunity than the effort put in to find and kill a sub.

 

[egodoc222]

No sledging please.
Everyone has the right to put up his opinion.

We need Subs at this point of time as part of our second strike capability.
Frigates will follow....

Second strike capability with a cruise missile? And you are a military professional!?

 

[Muhammad Omar]

When are we getting our Subs

First S-20 will Join Pakistan Navy Fleet in 2018.... Insha ALLAH

 

[Genghis khan1]

scrap the deal spend money for demolish madrasas and open schools .

Yap, so that MNAs and MPAs eat away our defence spending too. You must be einstein.

Subs are the perfect offensive weapons. They are independent, hard to find, lone wolf hunter. PN should acquire or build atleast 20 to 24 to to counter Indian carrier threat and add second strike capability.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Yap, so that MNAs and MPAs eat away our defence spending too. You must be einstein.

Subs are the perfect offensive weapons. They are independent, hard to find, lone wolf hunter. PN should acquire or build atleast 20 to 24 to to counter Indian carrier threat and add second strike capability.

PN is looking for 12 i think that will be enough our coast line is not big enough for that we have 24 Subs in Navy Fleet and neither Navy has the budget to operate such fleet + Babur Ra'ad and CM400 are good for the Indian Carriers + babur can be fires from Air land and soon by sea to

the thing is PN just need some Modern Frigates and and Corvettes and destroyers like Type 52 which can counter INS Kolkata almost equal and Type 53 type 56 ships

if the Economy keeps on growing then in future Navy will also have such frigates as their budget increases

 

[Genghis khan1]

Second strike capability with a cruise missile? And you are a military professional!?

Ballistic missiles are easy to counter, Cruise missiles on board Naval vessels can be tipped with Nukes.

PN is looking for 12 i think that will be enough our coast line is not big enough for that we have 24 Subs in Navy Fleet and neither Navy has the budget to operate such fleet + Babur Ra'ad and CM400 are good for the Indian Carriers + babur can be fires from Air land and soon by sea to

the thing is PN just need some Modern Frigates and and Corvettes and destroyers like Type 52 which can counter INS Kolkata almost equal and Type 53 type 56 ships

if the Economy keeps on growing then in future Navy will also have such frigates as their budget increases

Frigates are easy kill,specially inface of largers carrier strike force. Carriers don't roam around by themself. There is a whole carrier strike group with it for protection. Every ship got multilayer of onboard anti-missile systems. Pakistan best bet is lots of advance subs and dedicated Naval strike air squadrons.

 

[masud]

pak navy can,t tow to tow with indian navy in surface platfrom. now day,s satalite, dron can track or provide information of any kind of surface vassel. submarin is the perfect weapons to counter indian navy.
ww1 germani cause havok on allied navy,after the war many thought sub,s day is over................
ww2 germani cause havok on allied navy,after the war many thought sub,s day is over................
in cold war even ussr built the largest sub fleet because they don,t have aircraft carrier which can chalange usa navy might............

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

08 Subs is a very sound decision, and Navy is following a proper plan developed many years ago. Air Arm augmentation is complete, surface ship deficiencies have been filled, FACs and missile boats have been inducted. Navy should continue to follow its plan.

 

[Donatello]

08 Subs is a very sound decision, and Navy is following a proper plan developed many years ago. Air Arm augmentation is complete, surface ship deficiencies have been filled, FACs and missile boats have been inducted. Navy should continue to follow its plan.

Surface ship deficiencies have been filled?
Air Arm augmentation is complete?

What are you smoking sir?

The type 21s are at least 10 years beyond their useful life. They need to be replaced.
Air arm? Mirage V are over due for their retirement as well, plus it is PAF running those, not dedicated navy aviation.

Heck even the lost P3Cs have not yet been made up.

Except for smaller FACs and Submarines, navy is in piss poor shape.

 

[Alphacharlie]

Gentlemen Let me throw some Light...

A submarine (Diesel/AIP) Depth Limit 300-350 Feet is Queen of Under water.
In Indian Ocean water is Saline Magnetic Anomaly Detectors are of no use below 500 Feet. Sonobuoys are of no use below 600 Feet. (Both these figures are for Warm waters)

Under Sea Lanes have been mapped by All Nations Big and Small. Each Navy Has Oceanographic Ships. Each Nation knows from where your subs will come...When ? No Clue!!

Incase you have A SSN OR SSBN which can dive below 500feet, you are King of Seas in Indian Ocean. Else, you are a toast to P3Cs, TU 142,P8,Do228, GBU1000, Magnetic Depth Charges...Russians made Nuke subs in Cold War, in Cold Water the detection Range of SONAR,MAD and Sonobuoys is more than warm water as Density increases...But Ruskies took a Big Risk against Yanks for Carriers.

Pakistan by buying 8 Subs is playing a Russian Roulette...These Subs will be independent, where as Surface ships are more prone to attacks.....

If Indian Navy Goes for More SSNs then the Game will be Other-ways....
If we induct more Scorpene, then you get me first or I--Game is Neutral...

Pakistan has got very WELL Trained Naval Crews..."Sun Tzu Never Consider your opponent Weak"

Some thing which I dont feel Comfortable is Chinese Hardware is High on Maintenance, Hope No Submariner dies in a Suffocating Tin Box.

Let God Ares give Strength to Men in Arms..

 

[Viper0011.]

Under Sea Lanes have been mapped by All Nations Big and Small. Each Navy Has Oceanographic Ships. Each Nation knows from where your subs will come...When ? No Clue!!

Incase you have A SSN OR SSBN which can dive below 500feet, you are King of Seas in Indian Ocean. Else, you are a toast to P3Cs, TU 142,P8,Do228, GBU1000, Magnetic Depth Charges...Russians make Nuke subs in Cold Water the detection RIsk of SONAR,MAD and Sonobuoys is more than warm water as Density increases...But Ruskies took a Big Risk against Yanks for Carriers.

If Indian Navy Goes for More SSNs then the Game will be Other-ways....If we induct more Scorpene, then you get me first or I--Game is Neutral....

Under sea lanes is just a mapping. Driving on a main road, I know its mapped by the GPS. I decide to take a back way or go on unpaved, guess what? The GPS says there is no road. Similarly, no matter how many lanes are mapped, they can always move away and go in other direction. No one has to follow a "lane" in a war.

Whether one is a toast for the advanced equipment or not, time will tell. The hull with more structural strength can go to 500+ feet deep if its at 350 already. That's not a redesign, just hardening.

The MAIN point you are ignoring, is Pakistan isn't fighting the USN!!!! IN and USN are opposite like the South and the North pole. So IN for the next 2 decades, won't come close to the USN's capability that they have today. Just a fact.

IN can go for 20 more subs, all these are hypothetical scenarios. The Pakistani subs primary role at this point is to offer second strike capability. That's it. I don't think anyone is seeing a conventional war above a week. The Flash lights will be used after 7-10 days if no deal is cut to ceasefire. Some of these subs, will literally go hide somewhere and will wait to either go back (meaning Ceasefire) or unleash the second strike component. Both sides will suffer tremendously!!

 

[Alphacharlie]

Tiger You are partly right on Navigation Channel Vectoring...Both are on the same Longitude, you are Caught!! Boom.

Your assumption of Equating USN and IN is incorrect and Inappropriate.

Your Navy is not going on a Logic of Second Strike as of now, PN has Subs to take aggressive stance, which should be. To Develop SLBM Or SLCM you need Clandestine Technology.

By going for more Diesels will make no difference in Our Scenario for Both the Countries. With present Technology they can be easily fished out.

In Our Naval Scenario even 2 SSNs can Cause Havoc.. I leave it here who gets them first.