Pak Navy Should Reduce The # of Subs To Buy Type 054 Frigates

[Viper0011.]

Hi,

There is an issue with pak navy---. It does not have a potent frigate---. The F22 P are lightweight Frigates---.

Pakistan navy should reconsider the purchase of 8 submarine---and reduce it by 2 or 3 at this time. It should rather invest 1 billion dollars in 2 TYPE 054 Frigates and 3--4 upgraded version of Type F22P class frigates..

I'd disagree with you there MK. Remember, that Pakistan will upgrade these subs to carry a portion of its second strike, I think everyone knows that. So to avert any conflict with India, Pakistan's traditional arch rival, these subs would first ensure a serious second strike capability. Which, IMO, would keep a war like scenario away as India would know Pakistan can strike all major trade hubs at will.

Frigates are an issue, but it is a second issue all together. Subs and Frigates are related ONLY because they are Naval assets. Outside of it, the acquisition of Frigates should be done separately and in number, without impacting the sub order. They are both essential, but the subs are a LOT more essential than anything else, simply because they are hidden and they ensure a second strike to many different parts of your traditional enemy that no other platform does.

Not a problem. The missile launched some 300 400 Km from the land will still be able to strike targets 400 Km inland, that is enough..

Not when during an air campaign, the Indian jets take out all or majority of your medium and long range missiles......remember, your country is smaller and it gets monitored by Indian and other satellites that India has access to. So they already know where majority of your missile systems are located at.

The Subs are a different story all together. They can "disappear" for long periods of time under water and possess dangerously serious second strike capability that's almost impossible to counter until after launch. Which then gives the other party about 3-4 minutes to react, that is, if they can even identify low flying objects!!

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Could you elaborate a bit and tell us how you perceive the navy to develop in the next decade. Iam gathering that the whole àcquisition cycle will take around 10 years to devop and establish.
Araz

PN needs to develop its off/def assets in the coming years.
The deployment should be based from 3 coastal bases, Karachi, JNB and Gwadar.
All these bases have both ports and airports, so both sea and air assets can be deployed effectively.
Specially the Gwadar port can prove very strategic.
The offensive assets can be Subs, MBs and LRMPs.
As soon as the Subs start coming in, the next focus is towards more surface platforms to replace the Type-21s.
Missile Boats will be added slowly and gradually along the way.
There is also a debate going on for adding a fighter squadron to the Naval Aviation. These can be deployed from JNB & Gwadar.

 

[ghauri05]

Not a problem. The missile launched some 300 400 Km from the land will still be able to strike targets 400 Km inland, that is enough. We do not need to compare with Indian missiles, they have there own requirements and they address them accordingly. Also a 800 Km SLCM will be better then no SLCM at all. We can improve the system and extend its range as the platform is developed further. For now, i think a 800 Km nuclear armed SLCM will give a decent 2nd strike capability. In future if we can get a 1500km to 2000km range missile (highly probable) that will address the issue once and for all as it will cover all of India even when launched some 500 Km from land.

Also there are chances that with these subs we will buy some submarine launched cruise missile from China as well.

The thing is,it will have to be 300-400 Km close to the shore n for some target deeper inside in India, submarine has to come still closer and that's a problem, there is high possibility of detection of our sub.
I compared it to Indian because if I remember correctly India has got some K-series misslie with range approx.3000-4000 KM(correct me if I am wrong). SO the y don't have to come close to our shore.

The naval variant will have a greater range.Infact eventually we will have the tech to achieve 1500km range with Babur

IF happens,that will be much welcomed!!!

 

[Shotgunner51]

Not a problem. The missile launched some 300 400 Km from the land will still be able to strike targets 400 Km inland, that is enough. We do not need to compare with Indian missiles, they have there own requirements and they address them accordingly. Also a 800 Km SLCM will be better then no SLCM at all. We can improve the system and extend its range as the platform is developed further. For now, i think a 800 Km nuclear armed SLCM will give a decent 2nd strike capability. In future if we can get a 1500km to 2000km range missile (highly probable) that will address the issue once and for all as it will cover all of India even when launched some 500 Km from land.

Also there are chances that with these subs we will buy some submarine launched cruise missile from China as well.

I tend to agree with you. The subs and frigates, despite both naval assets, here serve very different purposes so shouldn't be discussed in the same breath.

On the subs, they are primary assets but only part of the whole purpose - second strike deterrant. I believe Beidou guidance, data link and LACM (Babur or other upgrades, whatever they are, nothing less than 1,000 would serve the purpose) are other important components of the deal (i.e. a meaningful deal of building second strike capability should be way more than just 8 subs). We have limited info now but I suppose the subs chosen as strike platform should be heavy (say 3600+ tonnes) long range (e.g. AIP) and big (single hull large diameter, especially if Strike version of VLS is to be installed), hence I think 039C could be a good reference.

However upgrading surface fleet with heavier and longer rang combatants does provide good support and protection to the sub fleet. I think 054A, 054B or 052C/D are appropriate platforms, though they shouldn't come in expense of affecting a minimum second strike capability. On financial, I think this issue is less of an obstacle, given the special relationship between the two allies as always.

 

[HRK]

hence India has invested in and developed an expansive anti-Sub warfare arm

Only if things were that plain & simple .... do you know in case of any active naval hostility Indian Navy will be required to search the over 700,000 Km2 of Indian coastline and area adjacent to it, just to detect Pakistani submarines (in any case I don't think we will place more than 2 subs) 'if' we chose to place our subs within 400Km off the Indian coast.

while in comparison, Pakistan's ASW arm is practically non existent. Now don't bring P3C Orion into discussion.

on the other hand we will be required to search around 150,000 Km2 area to track down Indian subs as for Indian Navy to enforce the blockade will be required to place more than one submarine hence increase the chances of their detection in comparatively small area within 400 Km off the Pakistani coastline & for that purpose 8 P-3C are more than enough one more thig that Indian Navy will attempt to enforce the Naval Blockade therefore Indian Naval assets will be placed at or around 'expected zones'

Handful of P3Cs

these handful assets would be required to carried out comparatively less mammoth task than their counterparts as explain above.

against a Navy having carrier-borne Aircrafts

Is your Aircrafts carrier 'fully operational' if not how much more time is required ... ??

Once it attain full operational capacity what you think where your Navy will place it in case of war especially in a scenario when Indian navy will attempt to enforce the Naval Blockade of Pakistan .... ??

and an Airforce whose operational radius out-ranges P3C's would lead to turkey shoot of a hapless P3C.

Your Airforce Jets would fly in Warzone unattended ... ??

secondly you should know that for IAF to take part in any Naval Operation will mainly have to use Jamnagar & Ahmedabad air bases which are approximately 400 & 600 Km from Karachi respectively; which mean they are equally approachable from our side as well

It is not an aircraft capable of defending itself against proper fighter Jets.

P8i can defend itself from fighter jet or SAM threats... ??

or in simple words what do you think P-3C or P8i would operate in an environment where they will face fighter jets rather to perform their primary task ... ??

Plz don't try to fight & win keyboard war ....

I compared it to Indian because if I remember correctly India has got some K-series misslie

none is operational yet ....

 

[Arsalan]

Not when during an air campaign, the Indian jets take out all or majority of your medium and long range missiles......remember, your country is smaller and it gets monitored by Indian and other satellites that India has access to. So they already know where majority of your missile systems are located at.

The Subs are a different story all together. They can "disappear" for long periods of time under water and possess dangerously serious second strike capability that's almost impossible to counter until after launch. Which then gives the other party about 3-4 minutes to react, that is, if they can even identify low flying objects!!

mmm well... i was mentioning the SLCM sir. 800 Km is the range of Babur and even if we get that (obviously a SLCM with same specs i mean) will be able to strike 400 Km inside when launched 400 Km FROM the land i-e shore line, 400 Km deep inside sea.

 

[shah1398]

Wrong.

A Submarine ,once detected, is a dead sub. It could not retaliate against airborne anti-sub assets at all, and would find it very difficult to retaliate even against ship based anti-Sub assets. A frigate could retaliate in whole spectrum (Submerged,surface,and air) depending upon its capabilities. It has higher chance of detection but also higher chance of survival.

I did not say it will for sure evade the enemy but i was of the view that it can go for more kills than a frigate as it would have more time than a frigate to indulge in evasive manures/tactics. Frigate always carry "Kill Me" banners in hostile environment and that is why subs are supposed to be long range and are best choice for launching tactical and long range missiles and mainly used for second strike for the same reasons that they have more chances to survive/be invisible to enemy.I still stick to my claims as the history is full of such examples. But again anything detected has more chances that it b doomed and it holds good for both submarines and surface vessels.

 

[Ankit Kumar 001]

As a Indian I would be more happy of this happened.

But as a Pakistani you should know that its not the right step if your potential enemy no 1 is happy about it.

 

[Psychic]

As a Indian I would be more happy of this happened.

But as a Pakistani you should know that its not the right step if your potential enemy no 1 is happy about it.

And you are? Indian Navy Chief?

 

[Ankit Kumar 001]

And you are? Indian Navy Chief?

Absolutely not.

 

[Psychic]

Absolutely not.

Then why should we be worried that you are happy?

 

[Ankit Kumar 001]

Then why should we be worried that you are happy?

Sir go through the post again and point out where did I say that PN or you should be worried because I am happy?

 

[MastanKhan]

my arrogance was brought upon by your self. how ever you replied with respect therefore i shall answer with respect.
my knowledge of submarines is not flawed. my navies use subs for different purposes. in terms of Pakistan specifically it would be on patrol with in its own waters. that would be also be at the arabian sea.

you mention your sources being public libraries, etc. i would assume you read that during the 2008 conflict 2 submarines were used for reconisance. this sort of out lines Pakistan doctrine towards using submarines. even during 1971 indian subs were of the bay of bengal paroling and identifying ships and sinking/adversary ships if possible..

Hi,

No problem sir-----welcome to the board and enjoy your stay here.

 

[HAIDER]

Hi,

There is an issue with pak navy---. It does not have a potent frigate---. The F22 P are lightweight Frigates---.

The navy must have something that is heavier and more potent. The thing is that the situation in the region is changing by the day---on one side is India and on the other side is Iran coming into the game as a new player.
The Arabian sea is suddenly going to get crowded and there will be power positioning in the region. The U S navy is going to be pulling out its aircraft carrier out of the region pretty soon and with Gwadar port coming into operation---pak navy does need the presence of a stronger surface fleet.

Pakistan navy should reconsider the purchase of 8 submarine---and reduce it by 2 or 3 at this time. It should rather invest 1 billion dollars in 2 TYPE 054 Frigates and 3--4 upgraded version of Type F22P class frigates.

In 2 to 3 years from now---it can increase the order for the submarines.

Sir, Pakistan is going for more sub, because it has far better technology and much better training in subs. Sub is low cost and very lethal weapon against enemy. Surface ships need much more maintenance and require more fleet. May beits news for you , its Pakistan who transferred much of French top notch navel technology to China, all new upgrades of Augusta etc..Even PAF showed them how the Mirage BVR works.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Hi,

No problem sir-----welcome to the board and enjoy your stay here.

Thanks