Pak Navy Should Reduce The # of Subs To Buy Type 054 Frigates

[New World]

Hi,

There is an issue with pak navy---. It does not have a potent frigate---. The F22 P are lightweight Frigates---.

The navy must have something that is heavier and more potent. The thing is that the situation in the region is changing by the day---on one side is India and on the other side is Iran coming into the game as a new player.
The Arabian sea is suddenly going to get crowded and there will be power positioning in the region. The U S navy is going to be pulling out its aircraft carrier out of the region pretty soon and with Gwadar port coming into operation---pak navy does need the presence of a stronger surface fleet.

Pakistan navy should reconsider the purchase of 8 submarine---and reduce it by 2 or 3 at this time. It should rather invest 1 billion dollars in 2 TYPE 054 Frigates and 3--4 upgraded version of Type F22P class frigates.

In 2 to 3 years from now---it can increase the order for the submarines.

Sir, take this as 8 subs approximately take 10 year to build and money can be transferred as average $400-500 mln in a year.. and subs take longer time to be inducted than surface frigates..

and in the mean time frigates can be purchased anytime as it doesn't take too much time for trial and economy be increased much better than today..

 

[MastanKhan]

Funny hahahaha

well if a kid is 35 years old then you must be quiet old indeed. i research defence and politics at a top British university.
what do you mean by "You can talk smart and that is fine---but it won't take you far."?

ships are one of the front line system a navy has. but in your case "pakistans" subs are more useful than frigates. as it keeps the adversary on it toes. they can see a sip and know where it is but a sub is completely different.

when you mean surface ship as policemen im assuming the surface ships is the coast guard thats there job. the navy is defending a country and it's interests

you right in the sense that Pakistan does need frigates. lets face it the f22p is a very light frigate. and speaking to an analyst who specific in Pakistan's military. told me Pakistan needs at least 12-14 frigates with at least 4 being in the anti air-role. if you have the financial capability then its a possibility. and at least 6 destroyers.

it's a start i guess.
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Hi,

If you are 35 then talk like one.

You may research defense at top british univ----but if your basics and fundamentals of understanding the function and usage of modern submarine is flawed then all your understanding and discussion is flawed---.

I did not do the research in any university-----but at public libraries and book stores some on the side walk stores---some at thrift stores some at salvation army---.

The waters in and around Arabian sea needs more power projection than the coast guard type ships and cutters----. It needs a real fighting force when the enemy is projecting its presence in full force.

The usage of strike by a submarine is the announcement of start of hostilities---which means full fledged war. But OTOH the visible presence of heavy equipment in the arena is a deterrent to hostilities.

But the visible presence of a submarine in a hostile environment may result in the loss of a submarine.

Because---just as I tried to tell you many a posts ago----just because the submarines dive under water does not mean that it can travel any which way-----and I would like every reader who does not know that to understand that as well.

There are roadways under sea that have been mapped out and submarines use those certain approximate areas and then there are areas that are extremely narrow---just like a mountain pass and any sub that has to pass thru has to g thru that area----and then when you have a diesel sub---you know that it will stay submerged for so many days and then it has to pop up---and those who do the chase can make it happen.

Pakistan has been following the policy of playing smart since very start. The main reason was funds constraints. It holds good for Air Force and Strategic Missiles.So rather than crowding the seas with Frigates in large numbers it would be more appropriate to get potent submarines in less numbers. By law submarines have more chances to survive and hit back at enemy n number of times even if spotted/ detected by Sonar, anti submarine aircraft n Heli, Submarine killer frigates etc. In case of frigates either U r gone or the enemy when detected.

Hi,

It is agreed--but the thing is that pak navy has tremendous shortage of surface fleet. If enemy has sub killer frigates then not you---you have to have something----.

You have to have something to project visible force.

 

[syedali73]

Hi,

There is an issue with pak navy---. It does not have a potent frigate---. The F22 P are lightweight Frigates---.

The navy must have something that is heavier and more potent. The thing is that the situation in the region is changing by the day---on one side is India and on the other side is Iran coming into the game as a new player.
The Arabian sea is suddenly going to get crowded and there will be power positioning in the region. The U S navy is going to be pulling out its aircraft carrier out of the region pretty soon and with Gwadar port coming into operation---pak navy does need the presence of a stronger surface fleet.

Pakistan navy should reconsider the purchase of 8 submarine---and reduce it by 2 or 3 at this time. It should rather invest 1 billion dollars in 2 TYPE 054 Frigates and 3--4 upgraded version of Type F22P class frigates.

In 2 to 3 years from now---it can increase the order for the submarines.

You have a point but how much funds can be saved from 3 subs and would those be sufficient to purchase Type o54?

Besides, there is not an issue, but multiple issues with Navy. Frigates, mine hunters, ageing Sea king fleet, no dedicated long range air arm and the list goes on.

With thieves at the helm, nothing is going to happen anyway. Instead of burning and boiling our blood, we should refrain from posting threads related to any types of procurements for such wishes are not going to be fulfilled.

 

[MastanKhan]

You have a point but how much funds can be saved from 3 subs and would those be sufficient to purchase Type o54?

Besides, there is not an issue, but multiple issues with Navy. Frigates, mine hunters, ageing Sea king fleet, no dedicated long range air arm and the list goes on.

With thieves at the helm, nothing is going to happen anyway. Instead of burning and boiling our blood, we should refrain from posting threads related to any types of procurements for such wishes are not going to be fulfilled.

hi Syed,

Roughly about a 1 billion or 1.25 billions for surface ships.

 

[ziaulislam]

look at countries with lots of threat and minimum budget and learn from them e.g A certain middle eastern country..with all arabs as its enemy, it has the strongest air force and the strongest submarine force in region with little over the se assets

subs are deadly and relatively cheaper to operate

 

[New Resolve]

These subs will keep our enemies off balance with their ability to attack ports shipping and inland with SLCM. Frigates will come too later.

 

[temp1994]

The reason to go for 8 submarines

Now the quoted figures for Submarine deal is 4-5 billions, which comes to about 700 million USD per boat.....that is an outrageously high cost for a 2500 ton sub class....you can have Scorpene/Type 214 in that money.

First. Wrong calculations.Even $5 billion for 8 Submarines ,which you are quoting as upper limit, would translate to $625 million per submarine.

Second. This is not costly by any means. India has issued a tender for 6 conventional Subs ,whose worth India itself (quoted cost may be higher than this) has put at $8.1 Billion, to be inducted concurrently with your subs. Most probably Type 212/214 or Japanese Soryu (if they participate) would be selected. This would put average cost per sub at $1.35 Billion and this would not include AIP propulsion as India would install DRDO's fuel cells on those subs, but would include transfer of technology clause for some subsystems.

Even the older Scorpion deal finalised in 2005 cost $4.38 Billion which comes at $730 million per boat, and remember this is a 10 year old tender in 2005 dollars.Inflation alone would push cost of those scorpenes to around $900 million per boat, and they come without AIP, a system which would be installed by India on its own dime.

I do not understand this bitching about cost when you are getting your subs at 0.47-0.69 times the price of what similar boats from Europe would cost.

 

[untitled]

We are still living in the Mughal age in terms of our navy

Had the Mughals a strong seafaring tradition India might not have been colonized

 

[temp1994]

But at the end of the day, no one can deny that 5000ton air-defence frigates are the need of the hour along with a potent land based aircraft strike force.

Worst kind of Frigate you could invest in.

If you keep it close to your shores, you should have invested in ground based anti-Air assets.

If you send it to high seas, its survival chance against Indian fleet is zero.

By law submarines have more chances to survive and hit back at enemy n number of times even if spotted/ detected by Sonar, anti submarine aircraft n Heli, Submarine killer frigates etc. In case of frigates either U r gone or the enemy when detected.

Wrong.

A Submarine ,once detected, is a dead sub. It could not retaliate against airborne anti-sub assets at all, and would find it very difficult to retaliate even against ship based anti-Sub assets. A frigate could retaliate in whole spectrum (Submerged,surface,and air) depending upon its capabilities. It has higher chance of detection but also higher chance of survival.

...............................................................................................................................................................................

And @MastanKhan and other, who are advocating induction of surface ships at the cost of subs; how do you plan to protect those surface ships?

A submarine does need need additional investment in other assets specifically for protection of that submarine, but a surface fleet needs to induct anti-Sub frigate and other ASW assets for protection.

For India, any danger from Pakistani fleet comes from submereged assets, hence India has invested in and developed an expansive anti-Sub warfare arm, while in comparison, Pakistan's ASW arm is practically non existent.

If you people induct an Air-Defence or Anti-Ship Frigate, even a WWII relic could sink that Ship.

If you people induct an Anti-Sub Frigate, than a pertinent question would be: Why you inducted that ship at all?

In order to have a semblance of surface fleet, you would need to induct very large number of Ships. Couple of Frigates would be a complete waste of money.


Now don't bring P3C Orion into discussion. Handful of P3Cs against a Navy having carrier-borne Aircrafts and an Airforce whose operational radius out-ranges P3C's would lead to turkey shoot of a hapless P3C. It is not an aircraft capable of defending itself against proper fighter Jets.

 

[Gufi]

Okay, there seems to be many theories here. But the reality of the submarines we are purchasing from China is for our second strike capability. No amount of frigates or surface vessels would be as deterrent as the ability to strike deep into India with nuclear weapons.
To match at an effective level the direction the Indian navy is headed will take more then a few frigates or destroyers and to mix the objectives of the two would be foolish. The first step we need is a second strike capability which would ensure that war between India and Pakistan is even less likely than now.
Our longer term goals will include a strong surface navy, but that will come with time and as Gwadar blossoms, so shall our surface navy and associated wings including flankers etc....

@MastanKhan

 

[Blue Marlin]

Hi,

If you are 35 then talk like one.

You may research defense at top british univ----but if your basics and fundamentals of understanding the function and usage of modern submarine is flawed then all your understanding and discussion is flawed---.

I did not do the research in any university-----but at public libraries and book stores some on the side walk stores---some at thrift stores some at salvation army---.

my arrogance was brought upon by your self. how ever you replied with respect therefore i shall answer with respect.
my knowledge of submarines is not flawed. my navies use subs for different purposes. in terms of Pakistan specifically it would be on patrol with in its own waters. that would be also be at the arabian sea.
you mention your sources being public libraries, etc. i would assume you read that during the 2008 conflict 2 submarines were used for reconisance. this sort of out lines Pakistan doctrine towards using submarines. even during 1971 indian subs were of the bay of bengal paroling and identifying ships and sinking/adversary ships if possible.

The waters in and around Arabian sea needs more power projection than the coast guard type ships and cutters----. It needs a real fighting force when the enemy is projecting its presence in full force.

a coast guard is used for paroling the sea near towards the coast they serve the people of your country.
it is the navies job to "project power"

The usage of strike by a submarine is the announcement of start of hostilities---which means full fledged war. But OTOH the visible presence of heavy equipment in the arena is a deterrent to hostilities.

But the visible presence of a submarine in a hostile environment may result in the loss of a submarine.

the use of a submarine during a minor conflict is can be seen as a declaration of war. and should be used once the war is official and recognised by both sides. how ever this does not stop submarines not engaging in ships and doing recognisance during conflict

Because---just as I tried to tell you many a posts ago----just because the submarines dive under water does not mean that it can travel any which way-----and I would like every reader who does not know that to understand that as well.

There are roadways under sea that have been mapped out and submarines use those certain approximate areas and then there are areas that are extremely narrow---just like a mountain pass and any sub that has to pass thru has to g thru that area----and then when you have a diesel sub---you know that it will stay submerged for so many days and then it has to pop up---and those who do the chase can make it happen.

under the sea there are hill and crevasses and terrains that make subs difficult to do what is required of it. i know that very well.

 

[al_asad_al_mulk]

Will new subs able to fire Babur C.M? same from Frigates

 

[Blue Marlin]

Will new subs able to fire Babur C.M? same from Frigates

the babur cm can be be launched from frigates but a vls is required, something Pakistan does not have.

 

[al_asad_al_mulk]

the babur cm can be be launched from frigates but a vls is required, something Pakistan does not have.

I believe we are working on it since long back i don't know what happen still they are unable to produce or fire Babur C.M under the sea even on surface ships i watched one video Babur being fired from single container.

 

[waz]

dont you think with Pakistan spending a huge amount of money on subs, frigates is sort of out of the question for now?

For a few years yes.